Buying and Selling Land

*blink*

I just read 25 pages of this. I don't have much to add to this except to feel some need to mark that I actually sat down and read this damn thread finally. Phew.

On the other hand, I came out with a few favorite sayings...

Whether he or she supports it or not is irrelevant. Someone will. Even if it wasn't her, it would be someone else. In order to change the game, you have to CHANGE THE GAME. Convincing a few of the players to do something else WILL NOT CHANGE THE GAME.

I said this, what, twenty pages ago? He or she said it, what, three posts ago? Please, read what we're writing. We're not just making excuses. I'm not a land baron. I own a lowly 512m. But I realize that even if every land baron decided to stop... more would simply pop up.

There will always be people who play to win.

Always.

-Ansi

hence why i am arguing for system changes, not to have any particular profiteer put over phil's knee and spanked.. but to simply *improve* the land system so there is less of a 'use' for these kinds of people to begin with

Exactly.

-Ansi

Hehe. I can't wait until LL starts wholesaling land for resale. This argument is going to get good.

"Wholesale" implies unlimited sales. "Land barons" can only flourash when there is a very limited amount of land. Wholesales, in standard definition, would essentially fix the problem.

-Ansi

Wholesaling land is the smart direction for LL. I am all for this. Allow the barons to purchase 4 sim gridded blocks to develop and resell, offering such bulk purchasers a discount of course. The "problem" as I see it, is not the actual price of land. People are fine with current prices. The "problem" is certain people's unwillingness to accept the fact another player is making $$ by reselling something for a profit. I am not talking about not claiming won auctions LL has addressed that, old news. I am talking about people who would rather buy land direct from LL, even if it means paying the same or slightly higher amount. Philip and Robin have both mentioned that LL intends to wholesale land to resellers, this will be VERY interesting to watch unfold.

Evidentally you do not understand what I meant. What I am asking is if Jauani supports the grabbing of large swathes of land while intentionally not accepting it until you can clear out enough allocation in your tier to do so. There is a policy in place that says you must accept the land with 7 days of winning it. In a recent new land rollout this was ignored and it took almost 2 weeks to get the person to accept the land (ALOT of land). My opinion on this is that the auction won land acceptance time should be shortened, otherwise the system is skewed to the baron's advantage. Example; If I buy land from another player I have a MUCH shorter period of time to accept it than if I bought it at auction. I do not see the reason for the disparity. It seems to enable just this type of rule skirting. If I purchase land from another player, hold it for just 5 minutes, whether I accept it or not, I will be charged for that peak usage, and if it pushes me into the next tier, i.e. forced to pay the next tier up which is totally reasonable. What I do not find reasonable is that this same mentality is not applied to auctioned land.

Okay, I did misunderstand. I though you were accusing someone of being a slimeball, but you're accusing them of breaking the rules. That's a difference.

I have no comment on that, not having a clue about it.

-Ansi

Schwanson;

4 blocks = $4,000 aprox RL. now that is an investment. How much do you think that land will be resold for?

*edit* Also is LL does take the lead on this I would expect they will be very good about charging the land tier fees up front. So add an additional $800.00 to the figure listed above.

That said; Land prices are obviously on the rise. I think land brokers are sadly mistaken if they feel the average player is wiling to pay a great deal of RL$ for a 512m2 plot of virtual land.

I am curious how much do you feel is the max. an average player is willing to spend on a 512m2 plot of land, and why?

Cat

Cat

ooh no cat they want to have LL give them the land special at $500, so they can sell it to everyone else at $1000 per. And they don wan that land to go to auction where they might have to actually compete for it no they wan to get it direct, in a way that only they get this kind of deal... after all if *everyone* could just buy a sim at 'wholesale' prices from LL why would anyone buy the same sim, from these people, for more?

I can see LL giving them a 20% discount for bulk but I dont see LL just handing land to anyone. If they assume the discount will be at 50% I am willing to bet they are very much mistaken in that assumption. LL's is a business.

Cat

I am in no way saying put an immediate end to the auctions if such an offer is given by LL. In fact, until there are many different people reselling land bought wholesale, the auctions better stay in place or we will see a land disaster. Perhaps we should place bidding restrictions on people who decide to take advantage of the wholesale land offer.

As far as what LL should sell these plots at, LL will determine that. I think a 20% discount would be awesome. Or better yet, Eltee's suggested price of $500, that would be sweet.
These would need to be gridded sims and perhaps LL could give a 1-2 week waiver of tier fees so as the wholesalers can get the sims ready. ***waits for the fireworks***

As far as what the baron can sell the land for, market will have to dictate that price. But I would think with robust competition, $4 to $7 per meter would prove both affordable to the end user and provide a tidy profit for the land retailer. So a 512m plot would sell for ~ $2600 L.

The whole concept is very exciting to me. And I was very pleased to hear Philip mention it again.

herein lies the difference between you and donovan. you have not placed losing bids on sims in recent weeks.
as a matter of principle is why i do not differentiate conceptually between what any of the land barons are doing. regardless of if we practice procommunity, or pro USD, we all work on the same premise: find land that is undervalued and sell it at value.

i do acknowledge a fundamental difference between content creation and land speculation. i have never argued that they are analogous. the only similarity they share is value of work/risk.
the notion of an unintentional cartel is something an illusion to me, unless what you are suggesting is i too am locked out from this cartel. from what i observe on the auctions, all speculators are in competition with each other. the illusion that one or two control the land market is only due to the immensity of the volume they cover. those that can afford to risk more capital and time to trade a lot more land are able to bid higher and charge lower margins. i would would wager though that the land market would be much more interesting if there were a few more big volume competitors

if you can find sizeable support for that comment, i will "deem" this forum not worth my time.

i am not feeling attacked on my person by the focus of this thread. i have enough conviction that my SL hobby is ethical and non intrusive to the community. i do not need to be attacked personally to realize from the onset that this thread could shape linden lab policy. i did not need an email from LL soliciting my thoughts to recognize this although i did get one (with a request to keep it on topic: ie: stop calling trolls trolls).
you can see my record in regards to the ethics of land speculation, where i stand on the 7 day rule, and in regards to transparency for the market.

the problem is not that the market is not working. the problem is that some players are not happy with the prices (or so they claim). are players are more interested in cheaper land prices and are they willing to pay higher tiers if it was available? are current land prices discouraging more players to buy land? will lowering land prices be profitabel for LL? if the problem that is holding back the growth of sl is the price of land, the source is supply. LL controls supply. if the problem is that some people don't like other making money on land trading and speculation, tough noogie!

if you are posting an analysis, then don't claim you are entitled to let it stand as your opinion. if it is analysis, get ready to defend it rationally. don't hide behind your right to an opinion.

i do not support that, i never did. i posted against it. i demanded a higher penalty than what LL gives out. LL gives a 20% penalty. I requested a 100% penalty to stave off manipulation.

i don't know who mark gregagos is but if he is good looking, intelligent, and does not have a lot of patience then i could be.

also, i didn't insinuate that donovan was crazy. that part of my post was open, and insinuated that a lot of people could be crazy. anyone who still believes that manipulating the land market can be successfully done with LL watching on.

if sims were wholesaled, a criteria would be necessary to determine what a wholesaler must do to earn the right to cheap sims.

rather than selling the sim wholesale, LL could also set up a system where they could earn the first, say 1000 USD of the sim sale and the developer could get the rest.
for example, for talented players who lack the capital. these players could present a multi sim plan and time table for completion to set up a community infrastructure design etc. given a go, they would build in a given time frame and prepare all the parcels for the auction and for the governor. they would make the net amount from the auctions. thier profits would not be as much as those that had fronted the capital since LL would be taking a risk on their idea, but it would also allow new blood into the land game and make it much more interesting for the community.

I agree basically with the motive of enabling a talented player who doesnt have the capital to start a project like this on his own, I do not think that should be LL's risk when it comes to wholesale land. IMO thats something the person who purchases the wholesale sim block may decide to do.

As far as prerequirements, I initially hadn't considered this. I beleive this should be open to anyone willing to purchase the minimum required sims. To allow licensing, or have LL monitoring of the sales of a multi sim block would seem to defeat the purpose of LL wholesaling land. But I havent really though tabout the whole licensing aspect of this yet.

the reason it seems important to set out guidelines or some criteria because otherwise how would wholesale differ from an auction? there has to be some substantial difference, otherwise what would prevent a regular player to buy it wholesale, develop it and sell it to himself for cost? this would circumvent the auction sim costs.

land is land. and unless there is criteria for wholesales, it has to remain in competition with the market rate. still at intuition stage. i've been too buzzed all evening to really think it through.

Wholesale would defer from an auction in the fact that this would be a multi sim sale. There should be nothing from preventing any player from being able to purchase x number of sims at wholesale price IMO. The average player just is not going to lay out the money required to buy several sims and assume tier.

how does LL benefit from this? if the end consumer is not the wholesale buyer then LL could have auctioned and made more for themselves selling on the auctions.

what was preventing a developer from buying all six of those adjacent sims that came out and developing them?

i think wholesale will encourage more effort than just parcelling the thing up, but don't you think that there should be a marked difference to earn the right to land that is gridded and yet still well below market?

development itself is what should be creating the value. if development is value added, i should be able to buy a sim off the auction, develop it, and my efforts should earn me an large margin.

I truely am sorry to see LL taking a back seat to their own land. I do however understand it. Hell they are making a couple of thousand us$ per month off one land broker right now. I seriously doubt however they will be taking much of a cut from that guarenteed income. Maybe they just dont want to manage their own land anymore.

I think LL is gearing twords getting out of the per parcel business and gearing up twords the buy an entire sim business. Have the new owner manage the small parcels. Thats great for those who can afford to purchase entire sims. My concern is the ppl who are going to be buying the small parcels. How much is the average player going to have to spend on land? What seems fair to me is one thing but we all know we will be at the mercy of the land brokers soon enough. Hell no I wish LL wouldn't do this I personaly think its a mistake. BUT do I think its good business sence? Right off the top I would have to say "hell yes" but that does remain to be seen. Only the ppl will decide if its good for SL or not. Philip stated that the land brokers are not making a whole lot of money. The land brokers say they can pay bills or take care of their families. I guess if I just was handed 8 million, a thousand or two a month it would seem like chicken feed to me too.

The ramifications of these changes remains to be seen I am taking a wait and see attitude. If I think things are turning in the wrong direction you can bet I will be buying an island or two rather than pay a land broker 3 times what a piece of property is worth.


Cath

PS; If these land brokers think that they will be getting the sims for "cheap prices" I think they need to get out of the land business now. LL knows the worth of its virtual land and they will get their money right off the top.

I am going to assume that your going to be hiriing ppl to develope those sims.

Jauani, come on! The only reason I placed a couple of "dollar-up" bids on Alviso -- and one other sim, if I remember correctly -- was to see if someone was bidding at a level higher than a few hundred dollars. If I could've gotten a whole sim for $400, I'd have taken it. But I had no expectations at all.

I have no expectations of buying a mainland sim for $1500 -- which is a price away and beyond what I think such a sim is worth. Do not paint me as a disappointed sim buyer; I'm doing fine in Enceladus on 20k m2, and you know it, because you and a lot of other people have seen my stuff. My motives here are different, and you know that, too.

As for being "crazy", certain land barons can make profits and still run around naked -- bereft of logic and real perspective -- until someone is crazy enough to point it out. Certain other land barons behave well and keep a realistic POV.

You're taking this issue waaaaaay too seriously for an "ethical" hobby. It's become a consuming crusade. I've seen it happen to others; it's destructive. Vent your frustration elsewhere -- I've had one too many distraught and mixed-up people from SL try to mess with me over the past few weeks, and I'm on my second phone number change. I'm not in the mood for someone else's personality problem, only a good intellectual debate.

Capische?

Anshe,

If you honest believe you are doing players a service, then I believe you have an obligation to fight for the establishment of ethics in your field.

While you personally may believe your work is ethical the fact is that there are clear examples of abuse by land barons. They include:

- Bidding on more land than they can afford, and then not accepting won bids, essentially blocking out other bidders
- waiting up to the full week to confiirm a land purchase, avoiding paying fees
- drastically changing the elevation of land without consideration for neighbors
- keeping land sales private allowing zero independant auditing
- land scanners
- buying 4x4 parcels and jacking up the price

If you are truly interested in defending yourself, Anshe, and forwarding your cause, you will fight to end these abuses. Do it, become a champion for the cause of more legitimate land resellings, and you will have less scrutiny and critics.

Please!

I am not aware of anyone doing this. But I would support closing this loophole by not allowing somebody bid for, say, one week who has refused to buy land won on auction.



This is no abuse.



I am not aware of any of major realtors doing this. I am aware of a lot of people who are not realtors doing it however. This is why new sims sold are only +/- 4m terraformable.



Prices of land for sale and average price selling statistic are publicly available. Other data is kept private by Linden Labs for good reason. I would agree to make land sale data public if all financial transaction in Second Life would be made public. As of now, our business is already a lot more transparent than e.g. that of people who sell unlimited copies of items.



I never used scanner and already posted before that I think Linden Labs should add this to TOS.



You mean people who buy single square of land, then put some ugly rotating casino sign on it and put for sale at 10000 L$? I filed a number of abuse report on accounts doing this and since Paris Parks was banned I did not find any new occurances. I can assure you that none of the major realtor has been involved with such tactic. But scammers always exist. You should expose those black sheep and should be glad that there is fair and honest land traders who are currently serving most of the market.



I have actively fight against a number of abuses by people in land business, include some you mention. However, I did not do this on the forums but rather where such issue belong: abuse report channel.

Needless to say this earned me several neg ratings and false rumors for this.

One example was when somebody (last name was "Vogel", I forgot what first name was) tried sell me land cheap that he got by abusing one bug that allowed him buy up unlimited number of first land at 1L$ per sqm. I could easily have laughed and made profit, but it would have been immoral. So I told him to report bug to Lindens. He refused. I called one liason.

Next day I was starting receive neg rates from people I never met. This continued some days. One day a person message me and ask me if it is true I screw newbie. More neg rate follow from other people. Some time later I find people mention in forum threads how I would screw newbie by talking them into selling land at 1 L$ per sqm to me and reselling at 10 L$ per sqm.

Finally I researched this and found out what happened: After I stopped this scammer from abusing a bug to buy newbie land at 1 L$ per sqm he went to busy shopping mall and started telling everybody there stories how I screwed him as newbie.

I am not Mother Theresia nor do I claim to be special moral example. I am simple girl, I try follow moral like most people do. I sometimes take care of myself or my family too, like most people do. But when somebody act immoral I try stand up and sometimes I take risk. I am sure many here do, including you Hiro. My aim is to be honest and fair business girl, not priestess or president of United States. I try to be better than those I compete with in market and still uphold moral standard. And I believe I am successful at this. Not only economically, but moraly as well.

Anshe,

Thank you for responding and being civil, again.

- Bidding on more they can afford: Glad we have your support to end this.

- Waiting up to a week to confirm land is not abuse?
Come on, are you kidding me? I take it that you do this all the time, then. LL should make it so that if you don't confirm land, you can't bid / buy / sell / or otherwise transfer or alter land. Period.

- drastically changing the elevation of land without consideration for neighbors

You did it to me, remember? Varney? When we first had our big discussion? I've also heard of you doing this from friends of mine. I pointed this out to you, and yes, you were civil, and you acknowledged that it did look ugly.

-
Which is what? That land barons were harassed? This was an abuse report issue. It should NEVER have gone private.
Examples of public sales:
- All real life real estate transactions
- All stock sales of a certain quantity
- All ebay auctions

So, why not SL? Please answer this.

- Land scanners - Thank you for supporting the effort to get LL to ban these.

- 4x4m parcel abuse - Thank you for aiding the end of this stupid practice.

...

Now, to people attacking Anshe - please keep this civil. You see how civil Anshe can be when you don't attack her personally?

edit: upped the size of "ebay" in hopes that LL will see this and realize that with Pierre's donation, that making land sales public is in the same rationale as our $8million donor. BTW Pierre, rock on!