Buying and Selling Land

Take a good long look in the mirror sweetie you just earned yourself a fricken mute. I am sick and tired of you posting insults belittling and just being rude. TO EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU! YOU DON'T NEED TO BUY ANOTHER SIM YOU NEED TO BUY A CLUE!


Flock off little sheep.

I am not comprehending the opposition to a wholesale land market, granted it may be due to my own density, so please bear with me.
Both Philip and Robin have mentioned that this is the direction they would like to see SL going to.
I simply suggested my view of the implementation of such a system.
Such a system allows anybody to participate.
It would allow the end user to specify parcel size, shape, and location.
With competition, the prices would be kept in check.
It would allow players to determine when there is a land shortage, and act accordingly.
It would allow players to better shape the terrain of SL.

To me, the argument that the "average" player could not participate in such a system is not valid. This system has to be available to anyone willing to pay for the bulk purchase.
This is not intended for the 2 day old player to get his land cheaply from the wholesale market, but perhaps that same player would be able to approach a reseller and specify exactly what they wanted, and get it. But if that 2 day old player decided they wanted to lay out the $$ for a wholsale purchase, more power to them. A plan like this is akin to finding outside investors from within SL.

Once again I sense opposition to the fact another player is going to profit from such a venture. This I also do not understand. Regardless of what a reseller pays, if they are able to offer a better product at lower than average prices, I think everyone benefits. If you don't like the amount of profit you see them making, by all means you should compete to equalize the market.

My opposition is not again profit, profit for anyone in sl is a good thing. I am however opposed to those that can afford to will in affect control the market. Of course that will result in them controlling the prices. Just like now.

Cat

Btw ty for your posts I have enjoyed them very much.

well one thing often involved with real world wholesale is MSRP... aka retailers can buy goods wholesale and resell them in smaller quantities to consumers, but are bound effectively to only make so much profit. This is to protect consumers from monopoly pricing, should the retailers band together.

Aka ipods which are to be sold for $299.99 and $399.99 for the 20 and 40 sizes respectively. Obviously compusa or best buy does not buy them for this price. But nor are they allowed, ON CONDITION OF ACCESS to the low wholesale prices, to charge *more* than msrp (allowing in times of shortages a small ebay community to form around these goods, marking them up to their 'market' value from the retail value).

The retailers however are forbidden to do so.

Aka for the wholesale system SL to be as 'fair' and 'open' as RL wholesaling there would need to be steep restrictions and policing of the land system to prevent these people who do buy wholesale from collaborating to form a monopoly market excercising their ability to buy in bulk against the now hapless average consumer.

given the record of people in game with land... i really don't trust most of them could be trusted to adhere by any 'guidelines' at all which would pretty much just turn the whole thing into a little extra free money for those willing to pay big bucks.

The sense I get is not that anyone is making a profit per se... It's how the profit is being made. Come on, let's be serious. There really IS NO WAY to add value to a piece of virtual land (cringes as he know this is going to result in virtual flames, slammed doors, muttered death threats, etc). It's virtual!

You want to add a house or terraform.. fine. That is not "added value" except in a few minds.. it's merely digital manipulation of a few bits. Some are better at doing this than others.. but there is no real value in it. How can you have value with "play money"?

Yet if you take the perspectiv ethat it is not all "play money", I still say my argument holds... Play money - and the oportunities to get it - is essentially a limited resource for those who do not cross the line and buy play money with real money. That is, you can't just mint your own money. So, if someone, by hook or croook or even fair practices, winds up being able to lck up alll/most land in their accounts and then cause a rise in the "average price or available land for sale", then this is what seems unfair and appears to raise the hackles of those of us who do not want to pay the inflated play money price(s
).

That some people actually do use this play money as real world money only exacerbates the problem and the angst IMHO. Look at the comments of Therians who have to pay for everything... Moeny is and always will be a sensitive subejct for most people.

I am not surprised at all that anyone would be upset that the current land market is apparently dominated by resellers who make a real/imaginary-play money profit at other players'expenses... It's the essence of the "leader board" competitive mentality. No ne wants to "lose".

" If you don't like the amount of profit you see them making, by all means you should compete to equalize the market."

That is an unreasonable expectation. We all know that there will only be a handful of ppl willing to dish out the rl cash for 4-10 sims. You have made my point for me, those who cannot afford to will be at the mercy of the land brokers prices.

Here, Here! Well said!

Cat - I agree that monopolization would be a bad thing. But I am proposing initially that this system works in tandem with the current auction system. Also, if such a system is implemented, I beleive there will be more than one person who would decide to take advantage of it, fostering competitive pricing. If they decided to collude and raise prices too high, players would simply go to the auctions or band together to wholesale themselves.

Eltee - The "S" in MSRP is suggested. To have licensing such as Apples would actually raise prices. I do not own a Mac for this reason (well one at the shop because its required). I like to shop prices, and get discounts when I buy in bulk. I found this not possible when Mac shopping, in fact , all of the local Mac retailor's where very arrogant and condesending. I think we are not giving enough credit to the free market to sort prices out. And remember, the $195 per month per sim tier fee is quite a burden to bear for unsold land.

Korg - I respect your opinion that land or the $L has no RL value. But regardless of your opinion, the $L has a very real value as does virtual land. Its kind of like a rare coin, some may see it as just a nickel, others will pay you thousands of dollars for it, it's still just a nickel.

true and in many cases retailers are allowed to have sales and discounts... but there *ARE* branding and pricing agents who go out and anonymously shop these stores to make *SURE* their brand goods are not being sold for *MORE* than msrp by the location in question.

Almost correct.
It is in fact the brokers who will be at the mercy of the players and what they are willing to spend. And yes, those who cannot afford to buy wholesale will have to buy from the auctions or other players, thats the way wholesale works.

OK, point taken. What would be a fair MSRP on land *IF* sims where sold at $1000 USD.

I am staunchly opposed to price fixing in this manner as it would stifle development of the land. It would also create a whole new set of problems for LL, defeating the purpose of wholesaling. Also the fluctuation in the value of the $L would probably deter anyone from ever using such a system, as they will be dictated what prices they can charge, regardless of the location or development.

Guess it depends on your point of view. If all land is controlled by one group of ppl we either buy it at their price or we don't. Yeah I can hope ppl will educate themselves on what is a reasonable amount for a plot of land.

Cat

Does it not make sense to you that under the current system a person can come into the game with a small capital investment and through careful management increase that to the point that they become eager to purchase sims - mostly due to the fact they can compete with everyone else on the market fairly, with access to equal supply? we might just have a difference of opinion instead of on whether or not someone should or should not profit (which i dont think ive ever implied) but rather whether or not the group of profiting people should be an institutionalized small group of individuals with LL support or a free market system that allows growth from within and competition from a wider pool.

So in short what i read you saying is, "If someone (or group) is willing to pay 4k they should be allowed to get a discount and be gaurunteed some small profit margin under regular auction price for their (assumed) willingness to develop"

And what im saying is, "Everyone should be allowed to profit off of and control land equally, even without either the faith or capacity to directly compete with the biggest individuals."

I do understand in the real world this happens, and that its been spoken of before and likely the direction of the game but having been a part of the current system without it i dont understand the need for change (EITHER direction) and just wonder how it would actually work out.

I beleive the same opportunity will still exist for the new players. In fact, I beleive such a system will encourage that even more, leaving the biggest players out of the auction system all together.




I think they should be guaranteed the same price as everyone else, there is no guarantee they will profit.



I do not see how the proposed system would exclude anyone from competing fairly. Everyone has the ability to sell their land. Everybody can go to the auctions to purchase land. I see the potential for newer land resellers to make a deal with the larger wholesale purchaser.

BTW - I am very pleased to be part of a conversation on these forums w/o the flaming or name calling that is all too common. Thanks for keeping it civil.

Schwanson;

Ok assuming that LL turns over the land to land traders and sell to them at bulk prices, and regular ppl continue to bid in the auctions.

I am curious as to your opinion of how LL could seperate or rather prevent a land broker from participating in regular auctions.

I can see a "friend" or an "alt" of a land broker bidding against regular players right off the bat.

How would you suppose this could be prevented?

Cat

A few of us have been asking for a client/inWorld player auction feature for months - so we can auction land and all creative content and services.

Add a fixed price feature to it also.

I suggested a split auction several pages back, unfortunately certain posters completely ignored it and instead simply stayed in the rut of making personal attacks about my real life, stated that I was insane, illogical, immoral, etc, etc, ad nauseum. Par for the hypocrite course I suppose. If you are pissed off about what I have stated above then it's probably you I am referring to. It's just amazing that people who initiate personal attacks and employ degradation continue to cry the same thing in reverse. Inexplicable, ironic rudeness. That said, at the time I thought maybe a split market would be a good idea, however after reading some of the points made about such a system, and mulling it over at work today I am not so sure this would be a good solution. If it does end up happening I hope very strict controls are enacted. more on this later as I have to go pick up my sweety at the airport, damn my RL sucks.

Nolan I am sorry if I missed your post after so many pages I did scan threw some posts. Split Auctions with strict controls ok thats a good start. Anyone have any ideas on how this could work?

Cat

We are just getting there Nolan, patience patience. This is only post #437. I think i was likely laughing too hard at 'nolanism' to collect my thoughts all at once. Its good your still with us, please do expand on your thoughts.

I like the idea presented along the lines of a "wholesale land purchased in bulk" market in addition to the auctions. With the stipulation as previously mentioned that the wholesale market being open to whoever has the capital and not limited in some fashion.

Given that scenerio, I think the auctions themselves would act as a sort of MSRP for the wholesale market. If those buying wholesale mark up too much, then one can turn to the auctions.

I also think competition in the wholesale market by leaving it open would reduce usurpation of land in the auctions by a limited few. Those trying to resell from auction purchased land would potentually have to mark up more then land purchased in the wholesale bulk fashion.

Yes I made assumptions for this but then here is to optimism *raises his water bottle and then takes a swig*

Interesting idea indeed. But why split? Why not just offer multi sim blocks on the regular auctions? Or just keep pumping out 2-3 sims a week at auction.
Worst case scenario:
Huge land owner decides to control land prices.
Buys all land at auction, including the multi sim blocks.
Raises prices greatly to maximize profits.

This would be easily identified by LL and the community. The solution totally simple.
LL sells more land. More blocks, more small parcels.
At some point the speculator will have to suspend purchases because of $USD limitations.
Until that point, LL can keep popping out servers like mad, they are being paid for. As is the tier. The bad side effects would include sharp devaluation of current land for a long while and potential devaluation of $L. The land I am afraid, would remain devalued until the rate of growth again exceeds LL's ability to produce it. The $L devaluation could be corrected with more large parcel/sim auctions selling for $L. I think there has only been 1 sim auction in $L. That could really help flush some $L out of the system.

Is it not accurate to say that
a) anyone buying land from the auctions (non wholesale) would be paying more than an equivalent amount of land bought by another (wholesale) player at theoretically the same instant

b) any player attempting to sell land bought in world would be at an institutionalized disadvantage to the large scale land trader by both scale (due to tier fee differences) and base cost even assuming a completely stable market

c) the wholesale market probably would have less total bidders proportionally to the regular auctions per m2 at any given time and therefor have significantly less upward pressure on any bidding (if it even takes place)

d) new land resellers making 'a deal' with large purchasers isnt nearly good enough as the sole market entry option as much as I'd like little peon slaves to do my bidding?

Edit Note: As for your last post just a second ago... I agree, why not just continue as things are? =P

Opposed to tiered land pricing or "wholesale", "retail" pricing. (Ever hear of "retail real estate for sale" - real estate is not production drive commodity with a wholesale/retail distribution channel).

Since LL is the sole source producer of land, creating any pricing-tiers at auction will only serve to help deep-pocket buyers buy more and more land and keep prices artificially high.

Can anyone point me to the post number for the Split Auction details.

I've not been on the forums much this week and haven't read the hundreds of posts herein.

Thanks in advance.

Well it starts at #374 if you ask me =P The flames seem to die down quickly around there.
Sort of.

Ok I have a good question or two;

I purchased a rather large plot of land today in the auction. The person I was bidding against was of course one of our famous land brokers. The land its self was available for me to purchase from gov linden a few hours later I had to tier up in order to get it. No problem I went to my land and noticed that the same land broker owned the land right next to mine she won it in an auction on Oct. 27, 04 Ross(96,142) The winning bid was in L$ not US like mine. Ok heres the question. How come that land has not yet been claimed? I was always told the land had to be purchased within 24 hours. So does this mean I could of waited to tier up till my next billing cycle? Does it mean that I didn't have to pay LL right away?

LL Has the 24 hour rule been done away with?

I think letting these ppl side step the rules wrong.

Edit* I would also like to add that the $322.00 for my purchase was already processed against my credit card. Now how come that other person has not yet been charged?

Double standard?

Cath