Developer's Incentive = Disincentive ?

All of that is why we have an economy. It's the mechanism by which we as a community award each other. People need to participate in it, not wait for a reward that's seperate from it to come down from on high. That's my personal opinion anyway. That's my final whack at this horse

I would absolutely agree with you, Chip, if LL wasn't already awarding (extra) money to people with high dwell.

People with high daily dwell get extra Lindens for that dwell.
People with great clothes or items for sale get high sales.
People with great scripts get word-of-mouth recognition and sales if they're selling the items they're scripting.

Themed Incentives aside, the only people getting rewarded twice (daily dwell bonus and Developers Incentive Bonus) are those with Dwell.

Robin:

Quite simply, more of what you've been doing at LL.

Keep the Dwell based incentives to award those who create popular social areas, and add more Themed incentives to also award those who contribute without owning the land their items are viewed/used on.

Biggest problem has been..
The highest Dwell places are the ones usually that have 1-3 events a day everyday

By whatever means, thats the fact of it.

Some places like the nice sim of Krittania that has amazing builds.. People don't go there cause they arent getting free money or whatever.

Yet it is one of many sims with amazing themes or builds.

And due to competition this has become worse in the last few months.. With the clubmallsinoes with the most events/giveaways/free money come out on top.
The motivation to recieve Dwell has made it cut-throat and the Number of Clubs and Malls and Casinos is pretty staggering. Cause thats what people know to get dwell.

Why does there need to be an insentives anyways with the amount of L$ being sold. Sure it helps some.

Why not make it L$ dwell bonuses only and raise them instead of giving out RL$?

I'd agree with this. Here's a few random thoughts...

I'd like to see things like the avatar of the week contest brought back.

I'd like to see more things like the game dev contest, and other contests. I think it's important that they are specifically presented as contests, not something that people will start to depend on financially or that will have an undue influence on people's creative direction. The reward should be exposure. After that it should be up to people to participate in the economy.

I liked the top picks addition to the map, but there's not enough variety in it. I'd like to see that opened up to some sort of nominations and let people submit what they feel is a "must see."

Maybe there should be a pie menu addition of "nominate" when you right click on a build or a land parcel. The problem with things like that though is that it would be gamed the same way the vote boxes used to be.

Maybe we can nominate what we think SL most needs every few months and then LL can put up some prize money for the group or individual that does the best job creating something from the list.

Change the way parcels that are charging admission are handled so people don't have to see the hideous wall of green bars. More people might start using the feature and thus become more of a participant in the economy.

Do more things like Hamlet's fashion expo.

Encourage the community to do these types of things themselves, too.

I'd like to see more awards for land!

Dwell is utter nonsense! Its the real investment of massive tracts that makes the man!

*chortles while doffing his top hat, to the swooning of all ladies present!*

I grew up with a little brother. Neither he nor I had to specifically seek out our mom's love. This was a good thing.

However, had my mom told me everyday - your brother is awesome. I love him the best. He deserves all the pizza. He's the reason people like our family.

You'd better believe I'd do whatever it took to be like my brother and get back into my mom's good graces.

At best the developer incentives encourage nothing. At worst, they encourage mindless mimicry.

I agree with you Chip, it shouldn't be LL's responsibility to reward anyone in SL, it should be the communities.

However, the fact is, LL DOES choose to reward/award people in SL. As such, it's a very valid argument to say that we need to consider some ways of them being more diverse in those awards.

If the DAs are so unimportant, then surely the ones getting them currently won't mind if others get them as well?

I think the DAs should be eliminated entirely. If not, they need to be diversified. And if we won't even consider that, then for the love of god, change the damn name.

Chip, I love ya bro, but you have limited perspective on this. Do you know how disgusting it is for me, as someone who has been here more than a year, and has made things that I've been told on more than one occasion are "the coolest thing I've seen in SL", to constantly Not be labelled as a developer?

Sure, the simple act of creation is in ways its own reward. But you don't have to slap me in the face month after month by only labelling one group of people in game as developers.

I think it might be helpful to reiterate some of the thinking behind the awards, and to distinguish them from the nightly dwell payments.

The Developer Incentive awards program was set up as a way to 'profit share' with residents who are building attractions that people enjoy in SL. We allocate a percentage of revenues to fund the awards, and that's why they're paid in US$. We use the dwell stats as a reasonably objective way to allocate the dollars.

The biggest challenge we've had is that the awards tend to support places. I think there's value in this, because there's value in having places and experiences that are fun. What they don't support in any obvious way are interesting, more granular types of creativity: a new way to script, or an especially beautiful texture. I think that's where the community can really help, by finding a way to showcase these achievements.

I like the idea of nominations, and am very open to nominations for Top Picks. The world is getting so big it's hard for us to see everything, so if you've seen something you think deserves to be called out to newcomers, please let me know -- email [email]goodstuff@lindenlab.com[/email]. Since Top Picks is for newbies, we do tend to put shopping and clubs in there, because those activities are things everyone likes to do. But I'd also love to put places and objects in there that inspire people with what the system is capable of doing, and lead to more creativity and innovation.

That's Good Stuff, Robin.

It seems that a small modification to ratings could make this more of an in-game thing, though. Simply put, for objects if someone rates the object sure, the creator still gets a point, but the object itself should also get a point. It would become clear in a short period of time which objects get the best ratings.

Granted, ratings can be abused and the more of something there is the more likely it is to have a high rating.

As for the developer incentives, people keep saying "do stuff to have fun, it's game" etc.

That's exactly the wrong point. That's like saying "the web is a game" when it's not. SL is just like the web, but in a 3D interactive environment where it's much easier for the viewers to make content. In fact, it's exactly like one big 3D wiki.

The developer incentives as a profit sharing mechanism would help to bring in someone like Disneyland. Imagine, if you will, Disney grabbing 8 or so sims to completely recreate Disneyland in true-to-life size? Why should they? What incentive do they have? What is special about SL? What can they do in SL that they can't with their own 3D web-site (you know, using VRML... *snicker*)?

All new development platforms have incentives. You often don't hear about them for two reasons. a) Systems aren't often popular while incentives are given out. b) Most of you aren't a developer by day. A few years ago, the owning company of a popular development platform was giving out USD$20,000 to USD$100,000 for projects they thought would help expand the environment.

And that's my idea to LL: bring on actual contracts. If someone proposes a great idea, offer to incent them. It certainly doesn't have to be a full reimbursement, of course. That wouldn't be an incentive. Instead, it can help defer costs to get something cool out until that something cool makes money. If it doesn't make money, and many ideas don't, no harm done; the investment on both sides simply didn't pay off.

I'm not saying the incentives need to be on the scale of the example above, but that dealing with someone directly who might want to do a project that could take 3-12 months may help bring the larger content in and would show support and commitment on Linden Labs' side.

-Zax

It's worth noting that the group Edifice Rex holds competitions where the various and hard-to-classify designing and building talents of residents are "showcased" in Natoma. The Lindens' Burning Life also showcased these sorts of creative schemas. And several residents consistently put on excellent "festivals", where both products and art have been displayed.

However, these are temporary events, and they are sometimes difficult for individuals or groups to organize -- they take time and resources that people who "play" Second Life (as versus having a full-time career) find difficult to sustain. Perhaps it's time to think about making more permanent arrangements.

Two suggestions for Linden involvement: a rotating "showcase" sim or two or three, not a sandbox. Might also serve for larger festivals on a fairly consistent basis. And -- given the time that elapses between bringing new sims onto the grid and auctioning them off, might it be possible to temporarily showcase an inventory of good builds or objects in new lands? A good way to entice people to visit, I'd think.



A very good idea. Is there a way of organizing this to encourage both ease and responsiveness? It would be a shame if people lost interest because their suggestions sort of disappeared without a concrete response.

So a while back, when you guys were asking for different metrics to award incentives. . .

you've just given up on that? We can't think of ANY fair way to do this.

This is very disheartening.

It's not about the money. I understand that its, what the receivers call, a "pittance" (this in itself is rude, if the rest of us aren't even deserving of a "pittance".

I think it is about appreciation. The way you guys originally presented the Developer INCENTIVES was that it was supposed to encourage development. Except in a few cases, the Developer Incentives encourage stagnation.

Now, they are being called profit sharing. Fine. Change the damn name. Don't tell me I'm less deserving or less of a developer than the person who builds a box and slaps porn on the walls because they've seen others do it and know that that will attract people.

I'm also sick of being called a whiner or needy. It's not about that. I don't need the Developer Incentives to develop, otherwise, I would have left six months ago.

What I would like, is some appreciation. I'm only human.

Have you looked at the event calendar recently? Have you seen how few Mentor events there are? I myself am a Mentor, and I've started once again trying to schedule Mentor events.

But where's the motivation to do it? A sense of community? We were never given tools to eject griefers from our events, so a lot of times, they can just be a hassle.

A while back, we would get more for doing a Mentor event than the normal reward for an event. That was some level of appreciation. Now though, anyone can get that same reward.

Also, now, since we're limited to seven events a week, I have to choose between doing mentor events or doing events at my own property. I'd love to choose to do mentor events as they help the community, but according to the logic mentioned throughout this thread, I'd be a fool not to choose to do events at my place and say screw the community.

Where's the appreciation for the teachers? Where's the appreciation for those constantly helping newbies?

In creating sometimes, I feel like I'm creating in a vaccuum. I don't get a sense of appreciation from the community, and now, I certainly don't get one from LL.

I'm only human. I like to create, but it would be nice if some of the 'official' appreciation were shared.

I don't begrudge anyone who receives these awards. Some of the people on the list are my dearest friends. But now to suggest that we've given up on coming up with other metrics? I know it'll be hard. I know some people will view it as unfair.

Do you know how many people view the current system as unfair? We can't get around that.

To answer the original question of this thread. YES, the Developer Incentives in their current form are VERY discouraging to creativity. It's a monthly slap in the face. I muddle through anyway.

As someone with no vested interest in this - i.e. I am neither a master builder, nor scriptor, nor animator, nor maker of clothes, I think the words 'Development Awards' are a complete misnomer. Since I have been in SL I have seen some fantastic builds etc and continue to see new ones every day. To base these awards on just dwell seems to me to denegrate those who are artistic and innovative in so many other ways. I am sorry if I upset those who currently receive this award but that's the way I see it.

I hope we can change the system to ensure that these creative people are also recognised in the same way.

I now stand back to be shot down in flames.

So I'm now being told that I am not deserving of sharing in the profits? What I do here daily doesn't in any way contribute to LL's profits?

Most of my friends are programmers, developers in their own right outside of SL. I strived with five of them to get them to join SL. After looking at it, they all decided they didn't want to join (paraphrasing) "a trite chat program full of sex clubs and shopping. They could watch porn or go to the mall for that". I tried to convince them of SL's potential as a development platform, but looking through the list of popular places, or the list of events, how could I offer up evidence of this? They all thought that LSL was too simplistic and limiting. People have done amazing things with LSL, but a lot of those people and their projects haven't stuck around. How can I say that SL is a great development platform when any examples of people smartly using LSL are not encouraged, and are buried in the myriad of social experiences which are the only things being encouraged?

"Don't you see the potential though?" , I pleaded. "No, we don't, we'll go back to programming."

On the flipside of this, I know of four people specifically in game, and imagine their are more, who specifically decided to stay in the game because of the help I offered them in the beginning. Overwhelmed by it all, they had decided to give up on SL and not stick around. In my mentoring duties, I convinced them otherwise, and now they have land and are monthly subscribers.

I've now pretty much given up on my "Cannabis Carnival"'s original theme and idea. No longer is it going to be a voice for the legalisation movement. . . for a cause. Instead, I'm now making it a boardwalk with shops, casinos, and the like. I can't justify going with the original project in lieu of generating my own revenue from the game as I'll never qualify for any kind of reward from LL.

Onei, your bitterness about not getting a prize or appreciation from "mom" just proves my point. Instead of applauding the hard work of the people who did get an incentive, people take not getting one as some kind of measure of their worth. The developer incentive was presented as a form of profit sharing from day one. The community is enormous now. Is it realistic to expect LL to pat everyone on the back so that they'll feel "special"? I'm all for more types of awards getting handed out, but it's only going to give people who look at the awards the way you do more reasons to feel "unloved." LL can't recognize everyone. This is why I say people need to seek their own rewards, not wait for mom to tell them they're pretty. So Onei, as much as I love ya, I think you're the one with the limited persepective. No one should feel slighted by awards that are based on purely objective measures. You either get into the top 25 in dwell or you don't. How it that a measure of mom love?! As soon as you start handing out awards for things that are subjective then you just give people more opportunities to feel unloved. So if we're limited to things that can be objectively measured, what else is there besides dwell? You could do it on things like "clothing item in widest circulation" or similar, but anyone who has something in that wide of circulation should already have made a heap of L$ off of it, and if they didn't then they have no one to blame but themselves.

Chip, I never said the people who are currently getting them shouldn't.

I said they the name needs to be changed, they need to be expanded/diversified, or they should be eliminated entirely.

How can you tell me its not insulting NOT to be given one when you've never been in that situation.

That is your limited perspective.

They need to go, or the name needs to be changed.

You misunderstood my metaphor entirely, and then are now turning it around at me in a condescending way. Thanks.

And it is absolutely a measure of LL's appreciation because they are the ones who decided on the metric and are now saying that they aren't going to pursue any other metrics.

And let me get this straight. . . your logic is that people shouldn't get rewards for having clothes in high circulation because they are already making money off of those clothes, but they should get a reward for having high dwell because they aren't getting it from having people at their place for hours, buying their stuff, and they certainly aren't getting paid daily from dwell payouts?

Chip, you're constantly chastising people for assuming that they can read your mind.

Listen to me when I tell you this: From our perspective, its insulting month after month to be told we're not deserving of a "developer's" award because we don't generate high dwell. Stop telling me it isn't.

And since people would be upset by non objective measures, we shouldn't have them? Once again, can't you feel how many people are upset by the objective ones? Shouldn't those be eliminated from the same logic?

I wouldn't have anything to complain about or feel insulted by if the DAs weren't there in the first place. But the reality is they are.

Chip, if you weren't receiving a Developer Incentive, I would be fighting tooth and nail to get the system changed so that you would. You are by far one of the best things SL has going for it, and hopefully will continue to be.

Lynn,

<<Wouldn't your own argument stand up very well against ANY award? >>

I find that I tend to agree with the American composer Charles Ives, who refused a Pulitzer Prize for his third symphony, and who said, "Prizes are for children."

I'm amply rewarded for my efforts in SL (by the only metrics that matter to me, which are my own subjective ones) but I appreciate your kind words, and I apologize Onei. I certainly wasn't trying to be condescending. I will just remain of the opinion that if you in any way find it insulting that you don't get an award from LL of some kind then you're placing far too high a value on them. It's simply a measure of the top 25 dwell earners. The only thing not getting one says about you is that you weren't one of the top 25 dwell earners. I don't know why people insist on reading anything more into it than that simple objective fact.

And yes, I do not need any kind of award for having items of clothing in wide circulation. I've already been rewarded for it though the economy and the simple fact that people like my stuff enough to buy it. Anything else would be superfluous.

I too apologise Chip for sounding defensive.

We have different perspectives and opinions on this. Based on what you say about clothes, I would then say that Dwell has its own rewards, and needs no reward on top of that.

That's what I've been saying all along. The Incentives need to be removed. They're redundant in the first place. However, if LL isn't willing to look at removing them, then they need to come up with ways to award a broader group of people to be fair.

I don't think they can really do this fairly or effectively either, so that leaves removing them entirely.

And finally, until they make a decision one way or the other, they could go a long way in taking out perceived insult by changing the name. I know that might sound stupid and petty, but really, the name is the thing I find the most insulting as to me, it implies that someone not seeking out dwell in game, or someone doing something positive in game that will never generate dwell, simply isn't a developer, or, by the metric being used, isn't a "successful" developer.

If the name were changed to something like Popular Places Incentive, then this would also remove the inclination toward the perjorative Dwelloper moniker.

Oh, and here's a basic miscommunication on my part. . .

I don't want or expect a DI for myself. I could give a rat's ass about what LL thinks about what I am doing. Well, that's not entirely true. I do know and like several of the Liaisons, and would care what they feel much in the way that I care about what any friend feels.

But as far as the official "entity" of LL, I don't care what it thinks.

However, I do care that it chooses to reward a group of people only based on one metric, which as I've said, is redundant in the first place. I don't like seeing my friends in game feel slighted by the fact that they'll never even qualify for one of the awards as is. If LL is gonna choose to award people, then they need to come up with a more diverse way to do it.