Developer's Incentive = Disincentive ?

I hope so, Chip, because calling people misguided and needy for suggesting that Developers Incentive Awards should be based on something more than dwell doesn't seem up to your usual intelligence level.

There's nothing needy or misguided in thinking that LL should shine a spotlight on some of SL's other creative gurus. There are some amazingly creative people in SL, which is what makes the world so fascinating and keeps it constantly changing. A large majority of these people create for the sheer enjoyment of creating, of pushing the envelope, of seeing if it can be done at all. Some sell their products and achieve recognition that way, and others simply leave them around for others to enjoy at their liesure, remaining unsung and unrecognized themselves. I don't think they should be skipped over for official recognition because they don't attract dwell.

How much dwell do Starax's builds earn him, as opposed to how many of us have marvelled over them and sent landmarks to friends saying "You've gotta see this.."? I don't think it's needy to want creators like that to get that pat on the back from the Lindens.

Perhaps if we could get some more commentary from those that aren't dwell-oping, then the counter arguments would have some traction. All I'm hearing in favor of dwell is that we should expect and enjoy a world that becomes end-to-end retail and clubs.

Fantastic!

For the status-quo, that is.

Just pull out and minimize your investment in SL, I am. Phobos will go poof very soon. In fact, what am I waiting for, I really should've deleted it after I got home from work.

I'll be right back.

Then you're only hearing through the filter of your own bias. It's not LL's responsibility to shine a spotlight on anyone. That's up to us, as it should be.

Umm HELLO? Do you think my stuff or place is recognized because LL makes it that way? HELL NO! It is recognized because *I* make it that way.
No one is stopping you from doing the same, if a creator is not being recognized, it is thier own fault.

Why is so hard for you to understand? If you are getting a dev Incentive award, you are working your ass off for it DAILY.. not a one time build or script... LL does not stop you from getting this award, YOU stop YOU from getting.
As I said before, what the hell good is a creation if no one knows about it or if the community can't use/enjoy it?

No but ask Starax how much he gets from the community that buys his creations?

Heh.

You're one kind of creator, Sensual. Starax is another. There are many others, besides. Dwell works for you. Good! Other kinds of incentives may work better for others who are not like you. Why limit ourselves? Why say one way is "right" and everything else is whining?

A world of Sensual Casanovas, with Sensual Casanova's approach to creativity, and Sensual Casanova's take on ethical economics, and Sensual Casanova's opinion on what constitutes good product and what does not, and Sensual Casanova's very charming and funny forum personality?

Fascinating. I would visit that world. I would be intrigued!

However, after spending a few evenings with thousands of Sensual Casanovas, I think I might want to take a break and eat a cheeseburger. With fries.

Donovan you are missing my point, or misunderstanding it... I do not sell creations because I leave them hidden somewhere, they are up for sale, and others buy them either because of word of mouth, or by me promoting them... I built up the recognition of my creations... Starax (for example) is mainly by word of mouth, and being a fan of his work.. I KNOW he gets sales, since I am one of those people that have bought from him...
My point is... I make myOWN reward for my creations, and there is nothing stopping someone from doing the same, if they don't want to put effort into it, then why should they be awarded? I get dwell .. yes... but I hold events... as a creator... do you see me asking LL to reward me for my animations? no... my rewards come from the community when they buy my work... not LL.

I do think it's needy. If you're sending landmarks to friends then what more does Starax need? If he wants monetary reward he can charge admission to see his work. Why does he need some sort of official nod from the Lindens? Why does anyone?

That's exactly my point also. Nicely put, Sen. It's up to us as individuals to seek out the rewards we desire, and it's up to us as a community to reward those we think are deserving. I fail to understand why there needs to be some sort of official nod of the month club.

Sorry. We're talking at cross-purposes. You are speaking of one sort of situation -- undeserved or unnecessary rewards -- and I am speaking of something else entirely: the wealth-and-culture-generating potential of a heterogeneous economy with multiple approaches to creativity, production, and marketing.

I'm not a people person. So yes, the developer's incentives go completely over my head. Whatever it is I "contribute" will never benefit from it. But knowing this doesn't discourage me. Makes me feel jaded, but that just inspires.

Even if they tweaked the way incentives were rewarded, I still don't think it'd change the way I operate. I'm comfortable being unpopular and broke.

And why does it get your panties in such a twist to have people suggest that Developer Incentive Awards should be determined by more than dwell? To have other forms of contribution officially acknowledged doesn't take away from your accomplishments, so I fail to understand why it has to rile people up so much.

I don't get any dwell based awards because I don't personally care about dwell or awards, and because I have no desire to turn a game I enjoy into a business where I have to "work my ass off DAILY" to get some money. That's not why I'm here. If that's what you enjoy, then do it, but it shouldn't be the sole basis of what the Lindens officially recognize as positive developement. The Lindens obviously agree with that, as they've begun offering themed Developers Incentive Awards. I'd like to see more of them offered. Not for the money, but for the exposure of some of Second Life's most creative and innovative people.

Again, Sensual, please read my post before pulling your sarcasm out of your sim.

I asked that the dwelloper awards be capped, not changed, not reduced. Capped.

What I'm saying is that there is a HELL of a lot better things out there than daily BDSM "whip 'em and spank 'em" nights to collect dwell.

You state, and this is a direct quote: "*I* make it that way."

If you really wanted to have done that, your sim would have been in group land a long time ago, reducing your monthly tier and bypassing the dwelloper award, because you're doing all your events out of the goodness of your... well, one of those organs that goes thump in the night.

Sorry, but your reasoning isn't flying with me.

I agree there should be other systems in place to reward less quantifiable achievments in SL. Though Donovan, I beleive such rewards are more of a "game" like than a measure of how many people spend time at a certain place. Are the casinos, clubs, sex palaces, and malls so great that the majority of the people spend the most time there? Apparently so. If you think this wrong, prove it. Create the non commercial, super intuitive, ultra artistic build that people just cant help but flock to. Developing an area that draws the most of LL's paying customers to spend alot of time deserves a reward. This reward drives the developer further to get more dwell to be rewarded further. Ideally that developer can use those funds to create an an even better environment....in the case of Club Elite, buy their own sim.

Zax had mentioned that he beleives the developer incentives favor the older players, I suggest reading back to Jenna Fairplay's post. She was number 3 on the list, and has been here three months. IMHO it is very simple, in theory, to get on the DI award list. The hard part is following through with the plan. It takes work, most here do not want to work.

I guess my point is, I would hate to see LL and the community diminish the value of these awards. Both monetarily and figuratvely. Despite the fact we all feel there are certain people that do not get the "credit" they deserve, that is a result of their own actions. Lets not take away or "freeze" the current DI awards, make them bigger and better. AND create other types of LL sponsored contests and awards that will reward the other types of developers. Lets not diminish one to get the other, I want it all.

I didn't just 'build a mall'. I tore down a mall of equal volume but of considerably more complexity and design strength for the sole purposes of placeing one of the more typical open air, dime a dozen malls. It took me about 3 days or so to design and build the original and about 2 hours to complete the junk that's there now.

The entire reason, as I pointed out in later paragraphs was to game the dwell system. The flatter mall is spread over a wider area so you have more space to cross before you see the whole thing, whereas the previous design was modeled partly after a real life mall.

Now which mall is better? Under the current system, there's no question. The flat open air mall is clearly better as it rakes in the dwell better. The old mall was better LOOKING and represented a higher level of 'development' but wasn't as accessable and didn't cover as much groundspace. So that's why I find distaste in the new mall. There was no effort or skill involved in it. I didn't have to DO anything. I could very well start teaching SL Basic Building courses: "How to build cruddy looking malls that will one day earn developer incentives if you hold events 24/7".

I don't see any reason to take away the monthly dwell incentives as they are, but for people looking to do something toward earning incentives or game the system as many people do: they either have ratings, events, dwell, or dwell incentives. There should be something else too. If you're of a mind to continue to say go do it on your own with no impetus to do so, then please, lobby for the removal of all ratings, events, dwell and dwell incentives. You can't have it both ways.

Out of all the creations I've seen by Starax, none have been for sale.

If that's your reasoning, Chip -- there there should be no awards at all. Nada, zero, zilch.

then I suggest you look harder!

I wouldn't cry if they did away with the awards altogether. But, since they are offering them, they should be offered for more than just who creates (or has others create for them) the most commercially successful plot of land. I'm glad they began offering the themed awards, and I think they should continue offering them on a regular basis until they do away with the awards.

ypu still do not get it... if they are on that list for dev awards, its is because they are entertaining a big percentage of the people in SL daily, you fail to understand the difference. If there were no events, no clubs, no anything like this... how many people would still be in SL? not many... and some may say well they would anyways... because they love to build... others would say they may as well buy a box of legos.
You still fail to answer my question... what good is a creation if no one kows about it or uses it? I am not saying that you should not be awarded as a builder or scripter... of cousr you should be, but by the community.
The way I see it, those that have high dwell are entertaining and keeping people interested in SL, and THAT is why I believe LL rewards them. since nothing in SL is programmed like other games, LL depends on us dwellopers to keep people entertained.

A single build does not make LL money... dwellopers do. when you realize the difference of the two, maybe you can better understand why LL does it the way they do.

there are two aspects to the developer incentive. if you see it as an award, a social recognition of some creation then the current system is not very desirable. if you see it as a reward, a financial compensation for the effors it takes to create and maintain a virtual loci of social importance, than it seems like the perfect thing.

let me use an examples to illustrate why the later is so significant:
on the one hand you have primary content creators - someone makes a gun, a sculpture, clothing, etc. they gain financial compensation for thier efforts, if they wish, by charging for the items. they gain noteriety for the quality of thier work and as it spreads across the community. for example, i have started wearing my seburo as an an accesory and it I was surprised by the reactions it has drawn. apparently it is a status symbol.

a player who makes places brings the community together into a common collective space. these places are generally a group effort to create and to maintain. but without any incentive, none of the content creators can benefit from thier efforts, particularly ones that are not commercial in nature. some wouldn't even get off the ground if they couldn't promise builders or scripters the financial incentive that the project would bring.

selling access to places is a tricky move to make because it requires you to give something in return. the commerce of place and object is going to be fundementally different because it is more difficult for people to appreciate the value of the efforts gone into creating places. and yet it is place/space that is most important for a community to form and flourish.

a lot of more experienced players make few to no rounds of club elite, bingo, or jeapordy, but they are important aspects for new players coming into the game for open social places to meet people. they need to be encouraged.

Do they really, though?

Assume that most of the folks that come to clubs are new-ish folks, that have only a basic $10 account. That means they don't own land, and essentially just suck down bandwidth.

CLubs generate lag and server instability problems. Lag and instability problems lead to unhappy customers, and significant time dedicated to weeding through all the "OMG I CANT MOVE SOME DOOD HAS HAX" questions and abuse reports.

Maybe by several degrees of separation, club owners "help" Linden Lab by making the world interesting enough for maybe 10% of the club goers to purchase a small plot of land (and hence providing LLab with an income). But by just throwing down a dance floor and a dance chooser and some random shoutcast station, the club owners help no one's pocketbooks but their own.

LF

why dod you keep pointing at clubs? those are not the only thing that make the list yoiu know?
When I had my land in Leda I did not even have a club..I did bingo, held fashion shows, and did other contests... a builder/scripter can do the same... half the time I did not even have an event and people just came to either visit or shop.