Developer's Incentive = Disincentive ?

aww how sweet ty hun.

*puts on halo*

why is that everytime I disagree with someone I end up getting 50 thorns of personal attacks thrown out me? I don't understand it... I really don't.

...because the building tools here are far more flexible?

Yes - I admit it, I buy up land ONLy to build. I enjoy sharing what I've built with others, but that is my primary enjoyment in SL. Sorry if that's hard to understand.

Really is that why you own a mall? Is that why you charge rent for apartments? Is that why you sell what you make? It is FAR more to it then just building, but nice try.

good points donovan.

i don't see SL as a seperate existence from RL. even if many of us try to create alternate lives for ourselves online, i see them as extensions of our RL. in that frame, on the artistic side, i see many of the works as commentaries on RL politics, meanings, values.

does support require money? i don't think so. if the project requires a lot of land, perhaps, maybe. the liberating aspect of secondlife is that the medium is information and thus material costs are relatively limited. compare the cost of the statue of liberty to siggy's titan in kritianna. LL has offered support. for starters, the medium. free land and tier for one month for burning life. free land for neltenbeurg (but not tier). there are players in world that offer this kind of support as well for less affluent players.

LL is offering us a medium for expression. thier expertise is technological. there is nobody in thier staff that is qualified to judge our work past a technical or personal level. they are not even full members of our community. as much as they would like to be, thier professional lives hold them back from fuller immersion. the people equipped to properly appreciate or judge the work is us, the community.

Yes.

I own a mall because I wanted to provide a place where new residents could sell their stuff without paying an arm and a leg for rent. If no-one wants to sell there, that's okay - I enjoyed building it. I enjoy landscaping the prim land for the mall, even though no-one explores it.

I charge rent for apartments, but I'm not bothered if no-one wants to rent them. I enjoy having built them.

I sell what I make because the income allows me to buy MORE land to build on.

And until last week, I had never converted any L$s into US$s. I used all my income for (guess what) more building land.

It is what I love. I love the land, and I love building. Anything else just goes to support my nasty habit.

Lisse I dont know whom you are trying to fool...
I really don't.. if you were trying to help newbies, you would not charge them anything at all... if all you loved was to build then you... O nm I am sure you have made it clear on your own, that there is alot more to it then just building.

..oh, and this reminds me.

I may not be the "team player" that you are, but if there's something in SL I cannot do myself, or cannot learn how to do, I don't do it. I don't hire other people to build for me, or script for me, or texture for me, or run events for me. Nothing against those that do, but I come to SL to do stuff. And learn how to do stuff. Not to be an employer. I've learnt from RL that's not a lot of fun

If there's something I need that I'm just not capable of doing in SL right now, I'll go enjoy it on the land of the people who can, and have done it - for themselves.

...and that "more" would be what, exactly? Because I have no idea what might be going on in your mind as to my motivations.

Certainly not a US$ income, as I've already pointed out.

well when you can script, animate, design, build etc... all by yourself, I will give you a medal...
So I guess you dont buy anything from anyone else? nothing scripted etc? thats pretty much what you are saying..

Actually, nevermind - I knew it was a mistake to start reading this thread again. I'm not going to waste time defending myself to someone who irrationally decided I was the enemy some time ago, for no reason I can discern.

It'll be a lonely life, Sens. Sad.

omg lol
the enemy?
lonely life?

ok

I can not agree or disagree with anyone or they are the enemy, or I am a saint?

this is so confusing...

lisse,
there is no way in any language you can argue that part of your pleasure was not community building, that you didn't make make these builds to provide a low or non profit (but at no cost to you) commercial option for the community.

you goal was communal and if it succeeds, you will be rewarded by LL for creating a significant place.

One doesn't have to purchase land to go hang out at Le Cadre, do they?

no one "HAS" to purchase land, thats what public sandboxes are for.

No one has to, unless there isn't any to be had from LL directly!

Muwahahaha!

*chortles and polishes monocle, catching a taxi with a jolly shout!*

I agree with you Lynn. But why does LL have to be the one to provide that award? If people really dig something someone does, then they really dig it. LL's official stamp of recognition isn't going to make people suddenly like and be drawn to something that they weren't interested in previously. Are you arguing that an uber talented newbie isn't going to receive recognition from the community because LL didn't ordain it? If people want to be rewarded for their work it's up to them to get it in front of people's eyeballs and to assign it a value. LL should really have no part in that. LL should be simply providing us the platform to create, not acting as some kind of arbiter of taste. And at the moment, they aren't. They're subsidizing things that draw large crowds. The key word there is subsidy. It shouldn't be viewed as a prize. I think it's a mistake to look at it that way.

How do you make guest accounts by the way?

That's also what buying land is for. It doesn't matter if they're building one perfect white rose or a club full of strippers, they're still buying land to create something that someone who came before them has inspired them to create.

You don't have to buy land to hang out at a hotspot. You do have to buy land (more often than not, at any rate) to build, or have others build for you, something new. It's the 'something new' that keeps Second Life from becoming stagnant. A thousand online games allow people to use the pre-created envorinment around them, but very few allow its users to create that environment, and I think that's what has SL growing as fast as it is.

I have nothing to argue about with your post, but I guess I am just missing the point of it in regards to this thread..

No Chip. What I'm arguing is simply this.

There has to be a change in the way awards are given out, or SL stands the chance of losing some very talented and creative individuals who are not interested in hosting events, building malls, sponsoring and hosting dances and sex parties.

SL hands out the dwelloper awards as a way of encouraging development of content. Originally, that's how the monthly award was given.

I'm not saying don't hand out the awards; but what I am saying is award those who also make SL a special place for everyone. LL can't subsidize with the dwelloper awards, and not award the person who makes the anti-lag dance machines that allow the dwelloper's to have large amounts of dwell to create content.

We have the dwell awards. Let's move SL to the second level. Let's start awarding those for their creativity in scripting, building and people-skills.

And yes, it should come from SL. Either it comes from them, or the DA's shouldn't be awarded at all.

It can't be one-way, LL has asked us months ago how they could better define and construct the monthly awards for creating content. "Creating content" is the keyword. It's time, way past time to start recognizing other's contributions to making SL a better 3-d community.

Whatever do you mean, my good man!

Must be new, like the land I just purchased before markup, 'tis why!

Ta ta!

*chortles and speeds off to get more bootblack before the formal dance!*

Let me try and summarize my ramblings... The majority of Developer Incentive Awards go only to the people who own the land that attract the crowds. Held on those same lands are usually items created by texturers, scriptors, builders, animators, etc etc etc.. that help attract those crowds. Alternately, there are many people in SL who create amazing items, be they scripts or textures or guns or whatever, whose amazing creations simply aren't designed to attract dwell. (Francis Chung's guns, for instance.)

Those people, as well as people who own the land popular attractions reside on, should be worthy of the same (official) recognition, without detracting from each other. It's not a matter of "give money to the scripters but not the land owners", it's a matter of acknowledging that it's more than land owners that inspire people to stay in Second Life, buy their own land, (which gives LL money) and try to raise the bar, or at least do okay for themselves.

Land owners and "dwellopers" aren't the only people keeping Second Life evolving and succeeding, it's a mixture of all of the skills combined. If you're going to reward one group, offer rewards to others as well. Linden Labs has started to do that with the themed awards, and I'd like to see more of it.

[Okay, I rambled again.. bah.]

There's a good deal of mud-slinging going on in this thread, which I haven't had time to edit. Will get to that shortly.

I understand you feel strongly about the developer incentive awards, so let's focus on how to come up with a system to reward creativity that:

1. benefits the communtiy
2. is innovative
3. is a system that has some degree of objectivity built in to its selection process

As you think about this, please refrain from attacking each other. This forum is for discussion and education, not personal feuding.

Thanks.

Lynn,
Who do you propose selects the best build award? Do you propose LL is better equiped to judge what is a good build than the community?

I was going to volunteer to set up an architecture award with judging panel etc but as i wrote the post i realized i really don't have time to do it all at the moment. but i think you would be a great person to do it since i can see you are very passionate about this good cause.

here is what i propose:
form a steering commitee to determine the criteria for the award, select judges and to run the process, (advertising, web page, event, raising award money if any), and to commision a builder for a temporary home for the award.

solicit a panel of judges for the selected award. select them from the pool based on RL and/or inworld accomplishments and expertise.

solicit entrants. people could enter thier own work with a description or something they admire.

select a winner. award a prize.

this group could grow to incorporate many different awards and could eventually hold a competition for the building of a permanent home and exhibition for awards and winners etc.

we could even include a linden on the steering commitee. and maybe a scripting linden, game developer, or artist on the panel of judges depending on the particular award.

You're looking at it as some sort of prize. LL is paying incentives to projects that draw large numbers of people. People who aren't doing that don't qualify for the incentive, nor should they. If talented people are going to leave because LL doesn't give them a prize then that's their own problem. We need innovators and pioneers in SL, not beauty pagaent contestants or people looking for handouts. We need people who can use the existing tools to create their own rewards, not those that need to "win" something in order to feel like a valued part of the community. The more awards they hand out, the more people who didn't get one will feel slighted. If your theory is correct that people are choosing what to build in order to win an award, and that it's creating a sort of creative poverty in the community, why on earth would you want to infect scripting, building, or any other form of creativity in SL with the same disease?