Disgusting, Disgraceful, and Disturbing...

I don't post much. And I when I do I never get very personal or express much opinion towards non SL related things.

I guess that's kind of a mistake to say, because much of what goes on in RL can transform into something in SL too.

Nevertheless. I saw something completely unnecessary just now.

I'm in world at the moment, shopping around. I came across a promising looking shop and was bent on making a few purchases. All of a sudden another avatar walks in.

(Name of Shop and Avatar is being withheld)

They're wearing a flagpole. And on it hangs the American Flag. Except it's at half mast, and upside down. And comes with a tie dye jetpack attachment. The object name states something to the effect of: "down with Bush."

I couldn't stop looking at this person, who sadly turned out to be the owner of one of the stalls in there when I realized they were adding it to the area for free giveaway.

My face went red, my heart started to pound, and before I got a chance to say anything, they logged out or TP'd away.

Gut wrenching anger is consuming me as I write this. I'm still standing there in world, looking at this crap, dumbfounded that someone had the nerve to waste time and effort (?) making this thing, hoping desperately that it will just disappear before more people see it and pick it up.

I understand that yesterday's/today's events may upset some people. And they might have been disappointed with the outcome. However, we have a newly re-elected Commander in Chief. That position deserves respect from any American, regardless of political standpoint. One may not agree with his politics, but that doesn't give anyone the right to disrespect our leader.

And for fuck's sake. Our flag. How dare anyone do that to our national symbol.

I'm not trying to be preachy here. And I withhold my political viewpoints as it isn't relevant. (This would have affected me the same way regardless of how the election turned out).

But, this made me very angry. And since I didn't get the chance to tell this person how disgusted I was with them, I felt I would post something on this and get my thoughts out.

They're out.

-Omen

Peoples emotions were running high during the election. Call this situation a mulligan and you'll be much happier.

Just expect a lot of depressed and drunk people over the next few days.

And a major influx of people trying to escape "reality".

Sorry this happened to ya, but really... odd stuff happens in RL and SL around ANY election. I saw a chorus of purple wombats singing chorus lines in my shower last night... then again, I was fairly drunk.

Breathe, my friend. He was a bit out of line - but the old "fly away and enjoy SL" is ALWAYS the best policy.

Regards & best of luck,

-Flip

*clap clap clap*

Well spoken...Now can I have my purple wombats back?

I hear what you're saying. And appreciate a cool-headed response.

I've been conditioned to take this rather seriously unfortunately. The anti-American sentiment in my area of the US is rather shocking. Coming to SL is my escape from the people and places around here that turn me into a rage machine.

So seeing this happen, in my escape, was shocking but I guess not surprising when I think about it. The more people in a given area, the more likely you're going to find conflicting ideas and feelings I suppose.

I appreciate the response though. And I'll try to take into consideration the flux of emotion and alcoholic beverages that must be circulating heavily at the moment.

Thank you.

If I'm not mistaken, hanging the American flag upside down usually isn't a sign of disrespect, but a sign of distress. Didn't maritime ships do it in order to flag down help?

Some folks see the current administration as a potential problem for the united states. As a free society, you MUST respect their opinion, and they yours.

LF

Omen my friend,

We all know rage is never the solution. Here's my Internet evolution tier... please remember, many of these are from my college years, and records from that era are HAZY AT BEST:

circa 1990-1992 (the nevermind era) - a bunch of smart and cool folks discover this thing that was ARPAnet, but is not called the Internet... been around for a few years, but the average college student now gains access. Discourse is civil. People have (at most) one email address they use, and surf newsgroups. Typically civil discourse, because your email is your life line to this new form of communication and tied to YOU.

1993-1994 (the pearl jam era) - AOL starts making ground up - the first "griefers" appear on the Internet. Mosaic is around, Netscape is about to be unleashed.

1995-1996 (and then pop made a come back) - AOL unleashes millions of people onto the Internet not knowing netiquette, many of whom are "looking for a free party."

1997-1998 (DOT COM! YAY!) - Billions of dollars are pumped into zeros and ones. Everyone wants a piece. Many people get multiple emails. Discourse and coversation and respect truly take a back seat. Marketing departments start looking for eyeballs online. Advertising departments start looking for dollars online.

FAST FORWARD...

1999-2000 (HEIGHT OF THE BUBBLE! YAY!) - Philip Rosedale makes a VERY smart decision when he decides RealPlayer is starting to suck. More and more join, more and more are gaining anonymity, SPAM has become a tech buzzword.

2001-2002 (BOOM!) - BOOM. BOOM. BOOM.

2003-2004 - SL arises. The bubble stablizes a bit. Many tech jobs lost. Many more people online... the online world and the real world match up more formally. Utopia... gone. Innocence... lost. Porn... hard to come by for free. Terms like SPAM and SPYWARE are now used on ads on Country Music Television. SL arises with a small community. That community grows.

SL offers the total in anonymity and dreams.

SL offers the ability to be ANYTHING, to build ANYTHING, to literally do what you dream.

This will be abused by any. And "abuse" - what is that? This person was expressing a view. They were probably emotion. I wouldn't do it. But I'll PROTECT their right to express that view. Now, where does the line get drawn? I won't protect someone's right to shoot you with a pop-gun saying "BUSH SUCKS" or "KERRY SUCKS" in a particle effect that ruins your SL.

Again, my friend, I go back to... in a world where you can literally "FLY AWAY"... its often worth doing so.

Over the past few days, I've been hanging with my friends - many on either side of the US vote. We completely disagreed on most topics. But we were still friends and still respected one another. Don't let political antics get in the way of your SL if they really anger you.

Breathe, Fly Away, and Enjoy.

Regards,

-Flip

Couldn't agree with your last statement any more than I do already. But to me, their opinion IS disrespectful in this case. And it's very hard to respect someone or their opinion, when their very opinion is disrespectful to me to begin with.

I don't know about the upside down flag situation, or what its many meanings can be taken as. But the feeling I got from this example was a negative one, not one of sorrow or distress. Maybe I'm interpreting it wrong, and if I am...that's my bad. And I'll be the first one to admit I am misunderstanding someone.

But in my experiences, it has always come across as a very negative, hateful thing. Done often by youthful punks who just want to look cool and badass 'cause they are sticking it to the country with their fellow lemmings.

And then there are those who actually do have opinions on the subject and not just clique-mentality, but still do it because they know it's offensive to people of other opinions. These people are often quite intelligent in conversation, but lack some decency in their approach. I guess they think the shock factor says more to others than expressing a well thought out opinion about something verbally or in writing.

To each their own execution I guess.

But in RL, if someone chooses to express their opinion in a civilized and unoffensive way, I am always willing to sit down for a good argument.

On the other hand, if they decide to shock me with their brash and clearly offensive approach to push buttons, I will shock them with mine, too.

Thanks for the reply LF

oh the HYPOCRISY of it all....yes you had EVERY right to be upset...i remember not too long ago when someone had BIG posters of an AP photo in jessie and how everyone was outraged...but now that its bush its ok? im sorry but no it is NOT ok....hes our president and that position DEMANDS respect.

Omen I'm in the Portland, OR area and have no clue what your referring to as "...anti-American sentiment in my area of the US..."

???

As LF said ...an upside down flag is the symbol for distress.

Be thankful you live in a country where you can voice your opinion be it good or bad. People have died in many countries trying to do what we take for granted and what so many Americans have died for through the ages.

You have a right to your opinion that it's disrespectful. That doesn't make it so, and the person you saw has every right to display whatever they wish to. If you're going to claim to be an American, learn to respect the opinions of others, even if you don't agree with those opinions yourself.

I had a magnetic flag upside down on my car for a while after Bush was in office for his first term. I put it that was as a protest the ultra-patriotism I saw around me after the towers fell.
I felt as though any questioning of our government's policies was interpreted as anti-patriotic and unamerican. I had one person steal it off my car (I saw her do it) and tell me I didn't deserve to have it on my car (because it was upsidedown). I happened to be behind her on the road and she had a giant canvas flag stuffed in the back window of her car.

I still believe it is our patriotic duty to protest our government if we feel they are not doing things correctly. To do anything less would be unAmerican. Just as agreeing with our government on things is just as patriotic.

Flip,

Your Internet Tier. Love it Sums it up nicely. Although I had to cringe when I came to the AOL part. It has been years now, and they still call and tell me I can "come back to AOL anytime!!!" lol

Anyway.

Yeah... Where to draw the line is always an issue. I mean what is taking it too far? By TOS standards, things like racial discrimination will not be tolerated. Yet other things that are offensive to certain people are okay in certain cases.

Well...... Flying away isn't a bad idea. Except I usually end up caught in some large skyscraper as it continues to rez around me mid-flight while I spend 5 minutes trying to find the exit. But hey, anything to get away and take my mind of things right.

Just wish I could prim-build and script myself a jetpack or hovercraft in RL to get away from the stuff I see around here.

Thanks for the responses.

I couldn't agree more, Omen. Your response to this person expressing their opinion over the election results is Disgusting, Disgraceful, and Disturbing. Your ignorance of how the flag can be legally used is no excuse for saying what you said. If you enjoy the fact that Bush is your leader, then by all means use the flag to legally celebrate. If one now fears for the republic, it is their right to legally display the flag in the distress position.

Okay multiple replies in one here:

Camille: I have no problem with disagreeing with popular opinion or the politics of our elected leaders. What I do have a problem with is the way people choose to execute their feelings or opinions. I think it shows poor taste in most cases. When those people are sufficiently capable of expressing them in more constructive ways. By all means, they have the right to do it and we protect their right to do it. But in no way does that mean I can't get miffed when I see it done in ways I find offensive.

Moleculor: I refuse to respect the opinion of somebody who expresses it in a way that disrespects my country or my leader. I will, however, acknowledge that they have the right to their opinion just as I do mine. But I will never, ever, respect someone that chooses to show their opinion in such a tasteless way. Sorry.

Talen: I'm very thankful that this country allows me and everyone else to express our opinions. And because of my appreciation of that, it makes me more sick when I see people who take full advantage of that right to disgrace the symbols of that very country that allow them that right in the first place. What can I say? It's all in the execution. And seeing someone figuratively spit on my flag knowing full well it's that flag's country that allows them to even express that in the first place, makes me angry.

Merwan: Eugene, Oregon. My first week here I saw a hippie riding her bicycle with a large flag patch on her back, upside down and with a few choice words written on the back of the jacket near it. And it has been that way ever since. Many protests here. And a lot of them leave a nasty taste in my mouth when I see them. I like Portland. I rent a car and drive up there every so often for a visit. Took a really nice dinner cruise last time I was up there with my girlfriend

Madiera: I wasn't aware of the event you mentioned. But I can see that we share feelings on this, and I appreciate you speaking up. I didn't expect it from anyone that agrees with me on this. As it's a potentially heated topic and could end up becoming nasty. So I thank you kindly for your reply.

And thank you to everyone else too, regardless of how you stand on this. All your thoughts are read through carefully and appreciated.

My ignorance in how the flag can be legally used? Where in my post did I say that this was in any way illegal or against laws nationwide or SL related? Give me a break. If one now fears for the republic, then by all means do what you will with your flags. Just don't have the gall to tell me I am "Disgusting, Disgraceful, and Disturbing" to express that this particular way to express this is offensive to me.

And as I said, I took this particular show of opinion, especially with the added "Down with Bush" title to mean something different than distress. I think flying the flag half mast alone, without the title or the unnecessary skewed perspective of it would suffice in expressing sorrow or worry. So don't give me that shit.

I acknowledge your rights to express yourself, as well as anyone else. But don't tell me I shouldn't get upset over it just because it's "okay" to do.

Keep in mind that unless you were told otherwise, there's a chance it wasn't an American. Some of us do come from other countries, you know.

Most of the other non-American SLers I've talked to today have expressed opinions ranging from amusement, to schadenfreude, to stunned shock. To use a very broad, but statistically accurate brush, the rest of the world hates Bush... a lot. We don't trust him and we fear the effects another four years will have on our countries.

You know, that's a good point. One I didn't have time to find out for myself because I was quickly standing alone, but would have been interesting to find out. So yes, I understand the rest of the world has their feelings on this too as is impacts more than just the USA.

But how the rest of the world expresses those opinions affects me the same way if it's done in a manner that I find disrespectful.

Oh and PS, here's a shocker to anyone reading this thread I started - Something I wouldn't have brought up normally as not to discredit my commitment to this country:

I'm not an American by birthright. I'm British as a matter of fact. Have lived here over 15 years now, but I consider it every much my Country as I still do Britain. And I show it the upmost amount of respect I would any country I choose willingly to live in.

http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/

I'll post it here too, since not everyone reads the off-topic forums. And I feel it's relevant to the argument here.

~Lianne

Errr purple wombats? *puts paw on Trins forhead*

In this instance, the election was very clear, in both the popular and electoral results, and while we may be disappointed for a while, to attack its results is to criticise and attack our very democratic process. This country is becoming so completely divided culturally that I wonder if it can or even should survive.

Yes, he won the election fair and square this time around. And yes, I'm proud that us Americans finally got off our duff long enough to cast votes in record numbers, not just in percentage points but in sheer volume. Finally.

However, just because someone wins an election does not make them instantly right and infallible. Everyone in the United States has a right to voice their opinion of the current administration; Democrats or Republicans, whites or blacks, liberals or conservatives, religious folk or athiests, good or bad.

And just because the "majority" voted someone in does not make the minority something to shuffle away and shout down with your ears plugged singing the Star Spangled Banner.

There should be a law requiring folks to read the Bill of Rights before posting to a political thread.

LF

The best thing to do is recognize it as a differing opinion and move on. From where I sit, the rest looks like hot air.

As much as the original poster can claim offense at the "speech" of the flag bearer, so too can the flag bearer hold contemptuous the views of the poster. This is the blessing and the curse of a fairly free pluralistic society.

The US representative democracy does not guarantee that the ideal candidate will become the chief executive. And insofar as about half the voters chose Bush, about half didn't. The framers of our Grand Experiment wanted exactly the opposite of fealty and as such the president is not owed it, even if you think so.

Dulce et decorum est / Pro patria mori.

Madiera said earlier that the position demands respect - respect is both earned and lost, and I can honestly say I have no respect for President Bush. I consider him to be one of the worst leaders in US history, and dangerous for the world. There is nothing more offensive to me than him being given another 4 years to damage this country. So there you go, you have your outrage, I have mine. To each his own.