Consistent Message: SL is/isn't a game

Robin stating that is is not a game is "Second Life altering". As far as life altering? Well it might change my daily schedule in the end lol.

I am sorry that you missed the points that I feel I stated clearly.

1) on a personal level, yeah this is a bummer IMO
2) the bigger picture, segrigating any part of the population is bad for business.


Again this is an old arguement, yes. As I have already stated this is the first time that LL took it upon themselves to come out and say "SL is not a game" previously they have in fact made a great effort to let everyone know that they are welcome. Of course that is a bit shocking.

I am building a lovely little cottage in SL right now. For what purpose? To roleplay as a home owner. I will need furnature, most of it I build, I am a builder. Those pieces will need textures, I will create those textures, I am a texture artist. What if I am out shopping for a nice addition to my home and I find a piece by you and buy it. I just played the part of a customer spending my virtual cash. The creator just made money.

If its not a game, do I need to roleplay as a home owner?

No.

Now take away my cottage, if its not a game I don't need to be building a cottage to live in. Since my "game" no longer exists I don't need a home in my virtual world. I don't need to buy anything for my cottage either. Did I just lose out on something here? Or did many parts of sl just lose out?

Last but not least lets take "its not a game" out of this equasion for a moment and look at the big picture. What if LL had come out and said "it's not intended as a marketing tool"?

Alienating any part of the player base is just bad business. Of course the fact that they did so is shocking. So yes I am shocked over this. So what, it doesn't matter what I am? No it doesn't matter what my personal feelings are or why I feel them. That realy isn't up for discussion. Unless you want to argue with someone about why you feel a certain way about anything in the future. I would say just allow me to be shocked or what ever else I am feeling presently. It's not realy affecting your life is it?

What does matter is how this affects the future of SL and the potential customers that will not find SL since now its clear that it will not be marketed as a game.

Yes I do take what LL and their Represenatives say at face value. Hell no I don't always agree, but it's their company to run not mine. So I do in fact have to live by their rules as long as I am in their world.

Thanks Jauani

1. I follow you there, and I figure that is their hope, but I disagree with that strategy.

2. The idea of calling it a 3-D chatroom is another option, as Naramor Pendragon pointed out, and not a bad description. (Also, let me hasten to add, NOT a pejorative.)

3. The truth is SL is classified by the industry in general as a reality-based online game. It is not the only one of its kind to have very little "game" to it, and that hasn't stopped all the ones prior to it to being classified as an reality niche online game, either.

And the truth is also that the Lindens are perfectly happy to present themselves as such, and reap the player base as such, and receive all the coverage as such - as long as Philip or somebody gets to say, "but of course we aren't a game," and gets the chance to convince the reporter to a greater or lesser degree that this is the case. But at the least - says, "Hey, yes I will do this interview, but you have to understand that this isn't a game," and makes such a point of it that any reporter would be remiss not to include at least one reference to that Linden preference.

Now, hoping and praying that by simple repetition of this mantra, people will actually come to change their views (as well as the entire online game industry changing theirs) is understandable, and may eventually even work to some degree. And I don't disagree with Linden Life's determination that their own employees not refer to it as such, or have the word "game" not appear anywhere ingame or in other Linden materials, if they decide to make that point.

However, I do agree that by doing so with too heavy a hand - and, especially, by doing so with such a heavy hand that Lindens actually speak down to new players - will turn off new players, and old ones.

If the Lindens employ this strategy with too heavy a hand - and especially, if they actually speak down to new players doing it - this strategy will backfire. And, I believe, has already backfired.

4. By the way, it is not a matter of peole "choosing" to be turned off or not by something; it is a matter of BEING turned off or not by something. People generally don't sit there and make a conscious and conscientious choice about their dislikes and likes, as in, "Hey, I think that I choose to dislike the movie Fargo (or Starbucks coffee, or country music), "Or, "Hey, I think I will choose to like Starbucks." They try it, find out whether they dislike or like it, and then they choose - to either buy it, frequent it, see it again, or play it again.

5. Nor is it a matter of people being personally bothered to a disproportinate and neurotic degree if they observe that the Lindens, in their opinion, are making a mistake that will cost subscribers. The forums are for discussion of the game, and that is what people are doing. To suggest otherwise is what I think of as the "what about starving children or terminal cancer or war" argument. You should be paying more attention to matters of true concern, like ending world hunger. And in any case, you must be personally unbalanced to be so unduly upset about a minor thing to even be presenting your position on the matter. (Because I disagree with you.)

6. It is my opinion that making a big deal out of what people call SL- namely, insisting rather ridiculously that they don't refer to it as a game - is pretentious and overreaching. People call things what they want to. And in this particular case, most of the objective evidence points to the fact that it is what is popularly known as an online game.

7. The Lindens can call it what they like, but it is vital that they make a note never to condescend to, speak down to, or correct any player for their choice of words. The little lecture of how its not a game is NOT a good thing to do to a player who has used the term "ingame." Particularly, as Enabran pointed out in the hotline, they do that themselves! And position themselves as a game in the marketplace in order to get a greater market share and profit from the gaming community, for Pete's sake.

8. The concern that taking any hard-line company position on what is, after all, nothing more than their own view of what the politically correct language should be, will cost them subscribers is, I think, a valid one, and very likely to happen. In fact, of course it will. Most of the people here are here to play a game.

And anyway - just who are we gonna sell all this neat content to once we get rid of the people who are here to have fun in a game? And even if we are all eventually supposed to go to work for outside people instead, like that bank, aren't they ALSO counting on a large player base that is here in a game to have fun? Or just what?

One way to hurry up and get rid of all those people having fun in a game is to put them down for daring to use the word "game."

And just rename the whole thing "Snooty Life."

coco

I wish Robin had answered my query without copying to a discussion forum.

Bump.

Catherine, I suspect you are being intentionally obtuse and argumentative for the sake of (your) argument.

How does Robin stating that it's a platform take away your cottage? How is it a "rule"? It isn't some gigantic paradigm shift that changes SL forever, unless you personally construe it that way.

It is what you make of it. You can roleplay an elf to your heart's content, terminology cannot take that away. Don't you see that you are being just as stubborn as those you are accusing of holding the opposite mindset?

Certainly SL is a game for those who wish to utilize it that way. And it's a marketing platform for those who choose to use it in that manner. I can (and should) accept any of the myriad of uses that people may find for SL. That is the inherent beauty of it! Your world, your imagination. LL is saying, if you want to use it as a game, a social tool, a marketing tool, a skill development tool, what have you, that's A-ok!

Is a dollhouse a game? Playing with GI Joes? For some yes, for others no. It all depends on your personal motivations.

Bloody Hell!! Calvin just pissed on my fire that burned for FireChick!

You tell that to the thousands of Furries that have a convention in Rosemont IL.

Nolan by LL stating that SL is no longer a game they will not be marketing it as such, unless they want to deal with faults advertizing in the future. It's fine that I can play my game here (now) but only with those that are here now. Don't you see this as changing the future of SL? LL will not be brining in players who wish to also "play" in the future. Which means to me at least that like minded ppl will not come to SL for the game part of SL. Apparently not my world, and not my imagination. Since my world was a game, and it allowed me to use my imagination.

What LL says and does are apparently two different things. This is IMO a push to make SL what LL wants it to be.

A What? A platform in which to create what you want as long as you don't call it anything like a game. That is the root of the problem. Today we can't call it a game, what can't we call it tomorrow? More so who's customer base will it affect?

I'm surpized that you don't see this affecting more than one segment of the population Nolan. Ok so it's not a game. I believe it's not entirely a game either but damn I wouldn't of said that. It just cost them potiental customers and it just cost those in world potiential customers. Think about all of what I have said please try to see the big picture here.

I can role play till there is no one left to role play with. Unfortunatly now I know that day will come one day. Since it's not a game, and won't be advertized as such, like minded ppl won't come play SL. What does that do for those who are selling "everything" in sl?

Who will buy...clothes, cars, houses, property, gadgits, scripts, who will go to clubs and parties, who will go to events and who will host them? What's next? SL is not a glorified chat room? Not a place to network? Not a place to buy and sell virtual real estate? Not a blank canvas for a digital artist.

Do you see my point Nolan? It's not about what "I" can do or can't do. It's about sending a message to the community one that ultimatily hurts that community.

Cat

Certainly the Linden staff should not insult those who have chose to use the Second Life development platform.

They are, however, in the process of attempting to have new developers enter the development system at privately owned novice developer training facilities, such as the Shelter.

The personnel at these privately owned novice developer training facilities are not part of the Linden chain of command and are thus free to condescend in and lecture in whatever manner they see fit, barring some sort of aggreement dictating otherwise.

I believe you can expect some condescension , speaking down to, or correcting players on their choice of words to occur at these places. I know, I saw precisely such an instance, and after the haughty and arrogant manner in which the victim's choice of words was treated impelled the victim to leave, I attempted to point this out to the person ostensibly greeting people but actually pouncing on them; I was told to shut up or leave.

Well, at any rate, if you just stop thinking of ways to enjoy yourself while you are in Second Life, and focus on how best to monetize your time, how to get the most possible money from other SLians for the least possible investment, the silly tendency to call it a game should come to end rather quickly, I suspect.

No, I don't see your point. That is because no one is saying you "can't call it a game". You said that, and then you end your post with "it's not about what I can or can't do." Which is it?

Some folks may say that you are silly, dumb, or whatever else, for saying it is, but that in no way stops you from calling it "Purple Hippo", if you like. Who gives a rat's ass if some other player tells you you're full of beans? It has absolutely no value unless you assign value to it by lamenting it.

Robin's statement in no way stops you from using your imagination, unless you actively decide to let it.

From the title page of lindenlab.com:

"Your World. Your Imagination
Join a burgeoning new online society, shaped entirely by its residents. Here you can be or do anything. Explore an ever-changing 3D landscape. Meet new and exciting people. Create a masterpiece - or an empire. Second Life is yours - to imagine, invent, and inhabit."

See all those words in bold? They imply that you don't have to adhere to any mold provided by the server owners.

From the title page of secondlife.com:

"A 3d online world, imagined, created and owned by it's residents."

I see "society", and "world".

So Robin's statement is congruent with how they already market it.

How long has LL said that they wish to be a 3d www? For as long as I have been here.

I do not see it said that "this is not a game, nor can you call it one." I am not arguing that you shouldn't call it a game, by the way. It doesn't affect me in the least if you do. I am simply pointing out that since the day Philip first started toying with the idea, I don't think it was imagined as a game. The "white papers" from Philip and Cory have indicated this from the start.

If you really feel that LL is alienating or excluding you because of their take on their own product, I just don't know what to tell you. The choice is yours of course. I suppose if it bothers you so much, you will find yourself at a point where you have to decide to stay or go. I just wish people would let LL worry about marketing. No one knows better than they who created the product how to do that. I sometimes wonder, with a sustained 20% growth rate, if people aren't simply using this angle as a debate tactic. Do you really think SL will fail now, because Robin said "it's not a game"? I don't. Last nite, the mentor channel was going nuts wth help requests, probably due to the USA today article. I see no worries on the horizon as far as player base growth and size goes.

Let's leave it to the experts. All this second guessing is simply amazing. Maybe we should call it SG - "Second Guessers". People claim that SL has player retention problems, etc, but where are the hard facts to support this? I am not interested in "they said". It is a piss-poor tactic used to obfuscate the issue.

The fact remains; you can still call it a game and play it as a game if you like, and no one can stop you.

Let's look at Barbie dolls. They are in a sense a platform. You can play house, have a pageant, drive a car, or you can make up some rules and turn it into a game. Whatever you like. For example, one could play a dating game with Barbies, it's up to the consumer what to do with it. Mattel certainly doesn't market Barbie as a game, and that doesn't stop the consumer from making up games to play with Barbies. Nor does it alienate those who wish to use their barbies to create a dating game with their friends.

I have said how I feel on this issue, and what it boils down to is tolerance.

I see some folks on both sides of this issue that are lacking severly thereof.

Peace, love, and Uuma ma' ten' rashwe, ta tuluva a' lle.

Jeeb us! Do they even know they work for us? Without us there is no LL.

EDIT: ok it wasn't LL it was a rep from LL telling ppl to shut up or leave?

and LL was condoning this?

I'm sorry you missed my point entirly. Someone else try to explain the ramifications of the statement made by a LL employee to Nolan please. Apparently I failed.

Cat

PS Nolan I completly understood most of your points and some were valid, the bottom line is if its not marketed as a game what will the future hold for us gamers?

Oh. So because you say it, it must be true. Brilliant point!

I was addressing your point, at least I didn't outright dismiss it like you've done with mine.

Ah well, definately acknowledgment of a weak argument to be sure.

You have no hard data to back your claims up. Sorry but vague, prophetic assumptions without empirical data don't fly with me.

I think you are severely overreacting. You think Robin making a post about it in a closed forum is going to stop people from joining SL. I don't. Even if they marketed it on other media outlets in that manner, I don't think it would slow new accounts. What obligation is LL under to market to mass market online gamers?

Thanks for the hypocritical condescension though!

Some things truly never change.

Why do I even bother?

On that note, this is where I stop bothering.

Have a nice nite Catherine, the all-knowing prophet of SL!

Please don't take this question as argumentative nor is it intended to provoke anger or mean comments, but as a "it's just a game" person, in the sense that I use it for pure entertainment, will I be tolerated much longer? I seriously love SL, but purely for shopping, sight seeing, and socializing. Are we moving towards a point where all members will be expected to create content??? I am impressed by the content created by the members and am a happy consumer but I'm concerned that the attitude of the Lindens seems to be that everyone should contribute to the content.

SL cannot succeed without both developers, consumers, and all those in between.

I dont think you have anything to worry about.

One thing that has gone unsaid here - a large number of SLers are hybrids.

I am one myself. I dabble in content creation a little bit, and make enough to pay my 15 dollar tier with some pocket change left over. The rest of my time is spent socializing or building for fun.

Condesending? Read your own post Nolan. "Catherine, the all-knowing prohet of SL!"

Forget it someone else fight with Nolan, I'm not interested.

I don't take your post that way at all. I think you have some very valid concerns.

Cat

Look, you said this, which was arrogant, insulting, totally dismissive, and condescending:

You insinuated that I am so dense that I am incaple of grasping your your claim that SL is now doomed, Catherine. If you expect a nice answer after that, you are living in a fantasy world, and sorely mistaken. I think you are confusing my disagreement with your prediction that SL is now on the road to certain doom because of Robin's statement, with my supposed inabilty to understand that you are yet again screaming "the sky is falling". History shows us that you have been wrong everytime you've gotten all wound up, and started up with the gloom and doom, Eeyore rhetoric. Whether it's commercialism, this silly semantic argument, or what have you, you are batting .000.

You edited after I had already quoted you - pre-edit. So, apparently you knew you were coming off as rude and dismissive, and then tried to soften it a bit, by editing. Which shows that you escalated the situation from a discussion to a verbal fist-to-cuffs.

Strangely enough, Catherine, I don't remember you answering my questions, let alone my repeating them.

To refresh your memory, here are the questions which you so handily avoided answering:

"How does Robin stating that it's a platform take away your cottage?"

"How is it a "rule"?"

"who cares if someone tells you it's not a game?"

"You're letting what anonymous people say depress you?"

"Who is it you're disappointed and/or upset with here? Linden Lab? The "it's not a game" "chastisers"? Both?"

I did not repeat any questions, and you did not answer them. Nice try. Fabrication of reality is surely your forte'. You should try writing fiction.

Impact? You say there will be an impact. I say you can't predict the future. You insinuate that I am incapable of understanding the premise behind your point, which is based on 100% conjecture.

Here is my stance: I could care less if people call it a game or a platform, I have struggled with that issue myself, as some of my friends can attest to. I see points on both sides, as I tried to tell you several times already. Which is why I say tolerance of how other people perceive and use SL is paramount. Also, I don't think that because Robin calls it something other than a game, that it is now doomed to failure. Apparently, you think that if I disagree, I cannot grasp what you are predicting. I do, I simply disagree. Is that ok with you?

If you don't like what I have to say, don't engage me as you did. I did not respond to you initially - I even went as far as to state that my use of the word "you" was both figurative and plural. So you find someone else to fight with, it's about all you do on these forums, unless some one agrees with you, then it's all lovey-dovey, huggy, post-bumping, thank-you-so-much time.

I leave you with this bit of extreme irony:


That's hysterically funny coming from you, Catherine. Remember "Fuck your opinions"? I do.

Also, you're the very last person that should be complaining about insults, after all of the derogatory words you have called me. Not to mention, taking time out to create webpages devoted to insulting people, and so on and on and on...

Uh. Where have you been hiding? There are no Furries and no Goreans IRL? Really? BRB. I have some sad news to tell to some friends

Btw, they may not be undead and have issues with reflecting in mirrors, but vampires exist too

Your so all over the place I don't even know where to begin. So I won't. LOL

I don't think anything will be any different than the path SL has been on all along. Just because you didn't seem to grasp what LL's goal was, it didn't stop you from doing your thing - playing your game. So if it hasn't really affected you in the past 3 years, I would just fall back into blissful ignorance and enjoy your game.

B-b-but Pendari! If... if SL isn't doomed... if no one is being screwed after all... what will people talk about?

The same boring shit they talk about day in day out to try and get one up on each other, I guess.

Frankly it'd be nice if someone could come up with a new subject, but I guess they've all been done since we just go round in circles now. But thats usually due to the same asshole drama queens dragging up the same shit for another go when the last set of answers didnt suit their purpose, or newer people not bothering to find out if the same subject was previously done to death before whining about it all over again.

Still, I actually very much enjoy watching any thread on any subject, no matter how innocuous and simple it seems, turning into a vicious hair pulling match. It never ceases to amaze me what people can infer and interpret from a few harmless words, or how much effort they can go to to twist someone elses words, or how venomous they can get in disagreeing with people. Like I said, it's a lot of fun to watch! Even if it is the same tired old subjects.

STFU NOOB!

I don't see SL as a game, I wouldn't PAY this much for a game, and I wouldn't have met so many fab people!

Just my 2p!