Consistent Message: SL is/isn't a game

Nolan - you know, I cannot crawl through my computer and stand in front of you and take your monitor and turn it into solid gold just because you may think doing so is necessary to prove my point, and/or for you to stop mounting some assinine campaign based on your unflattering opinion only, as above.

THEY - which term I didn't use here, but rather someone else did; namely you - is THAT LINDEN in the HOTLINE thread that I have POINTED TO several TIMES in this THREAD. Dig it?

And for other names, plenty of people have sanctimoniously corrected me and others in the past and/or argued with me and others plenty on this very topic, and you know it, including Enabran, as I recall, and maybe YOU, Nolan. In fact, some people seem to consider it their solemn duty to immediately correct all new posters in this regard. But what - you are claiming you don't read the forums? You, along with several others I could name, refuse to accept any obvious general observation brought up?

Or - you expect everyone who believes anything different from you has the burden of, before making the statement, going through and culling at least a dozen quotes from forum history?

I don't think so. Moreover, naming names would be against TOS in many cases.

So you can cut the crap out on this ridiculous effort to paint anything I say that you don't like as some kind of conspiracy theory.

coco

Paranoia will destroy ya ! Long live Ozzy.

Ditto. Which is why it's a bad idea to see conspiracy theories when there aren't any.

coco

You hurt my feelings.

You know very well that you were using that vaguerie long before that Linden post, so don't lecture me please.

I can and do read, you know.

I think you overuse that political, rhetorical device.

You will say you don't, and toss out more diversions. It's ok. I understand.

So what if a handful of people don't like Tringo? It doesn't mean it is a pervasive meme!

This is what I take exception to, I don't disbelieve that you have heard some of the things you claim, it's when you exaggerate the pervasiveness of it, to try and "win" an argument.

Again, who cares if someone wants to dismiss Tringo, or what have you? Who cares if someone says (even forcefully) "it's not a game"? Why get so damned worked up over what other people think? A minority at that!

As you may have noticed, I haven't been participating much on the forums as of late. This is because I have had enough of people positing that their own perceptions equal reality, especially when said people employ intentionally ambigous pronouns, not to mention caps, as if they make a person's points more true. Yell all you want. Whatever works for you.

Make it good, I won't be replying further.

Then neither will I. Except to say I don't know what you mean when you say "overuse that political, rhetoric device."

coco

Late getting to the party.

Let's call it a PUD (Populated Universal Domain) (Short, sweet, computerish)

Looks like a pump, feels like a sneaker.




Every word in this thread was worth reading for jems like this:

Comedy gold.

STAY BACK CREEPY RING PERSON!!

When the basic currency is legal tender for all debts public and private in both sl and rl, its not a game.

When SL is subject to judicial determination of disputes, its not a game.

when this so called platform assists me to practice my rl profession and put me in contact with information or clients, then it is not a game.

When it is not competing for my entertainment dollars or disposable income, but is a essential part of my work desk, its not a game.

I think for it to be a platform and not a game, we need to have full bore name selection and not limited last names chosen from a list. Personal Identity is essential in real world commerce. How many places will extend credit with out obtianing an SSN?

But right now its marketed as a game, to gamers. It does not sit onmy desk as an essetial tool the way the internet does. It certainly has the potential for being a platform for commerce, and some peope have made good money with it (but they have with EQ also and frankly theere is a professional magic circuit.) But right now it is not broadly established enough or versitle enough to be a platform. It is a self contained little world. So is norrath. Your options are greater in SL, but it is still its own little world, and as it currently sits, a neat toy, but it is a toy. I think at best, it is currently a simulation game.

I have actually seen this a number of times at the welcome area. Typically someone says it's a game because it's a pasttime or diversion, someone says it's not because it doesn't have rules, and won't accept that words can have multiple meanings.

Selador and Siggy;

I agree with you both, and yes Selador we have had this discussion/debate since the beginning of SL. That's probably why I am a bit shocked. The question has been asked many many times if SL was a game or not. Until recently LL stood fast to the opinion that is was what ever ppl wanted it to be. Mostly an open environment where we could push the limits. Those limits were curtailed in the past few days. They were curtailed by LL. Putting limits on what SL is. I feel that has a certain negative impact.

The creative side of me is bummed out, there is no denying that.
The analytical side of me thinks this will probably cost LL some future customers.

Either way I do no see the positive side of insisting on a particular mindset, a certain perception. How is limiting anyones creative expression in any form good for Second Life?

SL it's self is a platform I know this. There are games built within that platform, there are rpg players within that platform. There are business ppl within that platform. There are good ppl and there are bad. All within the platform. SL is a jumping off point what it is IMO should not be shaped by LL it should be shaped by those who live on the grid.

To draw a line in the sand and state that it is not one thing or the other IMO is a mistake.

Don't just look at it from a gamers/social/rpg mindset. Look at the big picture. What if LL had instead stated that "SL is not a marketing tool" Because if it's not a game, then it's not a marketing tool either. It's a platform in which to try to market ideas.

I wish LL had never marketed SL as a game, since their real beliefs are that it is not a game. I know why they did, I just don't care for any company misleading it's player base, regardless of their need for subscribers.

Cat

Robin saying it is not a game does not jeopardize anyone's style of play.

No one has lost anything as a result.

All semantics aside, they advertise on gaming sites, because they aspire to get types who frequent gaming sites to join. Developers, consumers, et al. It's that simple. Where else would they advertise? On needlepoint sites?

It's really a useless argument, because nothing has changed.

Saying they are losing potential customers is just a way to try and leverage LL into calling it a game.

I see it as SL, and what Robin or other SLers call it doesn't affect me in the least, nor does it affect you (the plural, figurative "you".

Actually, I think it's more like wishful schadenfreude.

Perhaps it has not changed anything for you. However how would you know how it has affected my experience unless you were me.

So no one in the forums will be chastised for calling it a game in the future then? Not by LL and not by players?

Sorry Nolan ppl already have been chastised in recent days. So in fact it has already stated to change. Read Coco's posts.

Saying that they will lose potential customers is not leverage of any kind. Gamers look for games that are marketed as games. If SL is not marketed as a game now, those potential customers won't find SL on gamer sites. If they don't find them how can they subscribe.
They can't. Which means they will not become customers as they once did.
I found out about SL threw MMORPG.com.

So where will SL be marketed? nyse.com, rent.com, newsweek?

Today it's still a game/ a form of entertainment for me. Tomorrow will take care of it's self.

Look at the big picture it’s not really about what to call it its about alienating part of the player base. IMO alienating any part of the player base is just bad business.

Cat

schadenfreude?

A malicious satisfaction in the misfortunes of others

---------------------------------

Whatever.

You chose to let it change you. There is no one coming through your monitor and (as Coco pointed out) forcing you to do anything.

As I said before - who cares if someone tells you it's not a game? Ignore them. Use the mute button if it causes you such agony and despair. You're letting what anonymous people say depress you? What an awful waste of energy and time to let someone get to you in that manner. They are just words, and words telling you that they disagree with your assessment aren't a ToS violation.

I would think that people like yourself and Coco who have raised children, would understand this better than most. It appears I am dead wrong.

All you do when you continue to complain at length about someone "chastising" you, is to give them what they want! You are giving their words power! Think about it.

Things that happen in life, change ppl. That is my belief.

LOL its not realy about if its a game or not Nolan. It's about pushing this um "world" in one singular direction. Not that of the players choosing. That which is dictated by LL.

Nothing has gotten to me, I am discussing an issue that has been a moot point for a very very long time. Only since Robin's statement have things changed.

Please do not start up with the "Cat's hysterical" bullshit again. I'm perfectly calm.

I am going to however continue to question why LL took it upon themselves to alienate part of the player base. ANY PART.

Cat

Roses are red, violets are blue.
I'm Schizophrenic, and so am I.

Having introduced SL to a few of my friends, I would have to say that marketing SL as a game is the best way to lose customers. I have personally seen more than one person, including friends, after having logged in for the first time say, "what's the point?" If you tell someone, moreso if you tell a gamer, that SL is a "game", they will be very lost when they find there is no structure, no rules, no goal set for them. Eventually they get bored and leave.

I also think calling SL a platform is a little off base. I just tell my friends to consider it a 3D chat world, where you can build stuff. If you want to draw in the big crowds of average internet users, the appeal of a 3D world for chatting can't be ignored. It doesn't apply any real preconceptions, and has a mass appeal. No one signs in to AIM or logs on to IRC and asks, "what's the point?"

All this being said, I don't see any issue with calling SL a game AFTER you are familiar with it. SL is many things to many people, and that is the beauty of it. It can be a game, it can be a 3D chatspace, it can be a hobby, it can even be your job. Hell, it can even be all of the above. Trying to label SL is a crapshoot at best, but anyone who tries to force other people to accept their own idea of what SL is to them is missing the point I think.

It is still moot.

I was contacted by a friends that said "Oh check out this cool game. It's really neat."

I think frankly it IS a game.
A) Furries do not exsist in RL. As much as I would love to be one they dont.
B) Vampires do not exsist. (Not including lawyers)
C) Orcs, demons, angels, faries, TINIES, mafias (at least as large as these and the frequency), GOR, etc do not exisit in RL.

But it IS NOT a game
A) There are humans interacting on this platform.
B) There is RL things occuring between basic econimic ideas, GOM, etc. These things can be studied and used as RL examples.

I truly think people forget that even games are not games if you take the time to do something with them other then hack and slash. Games used to be about fun and getting together with friends or people with similiar interests. Now a days people take social interaction and gaming to be different enties independant of each other. If that's true then I'll unplug my internet now and wait for HAL to nuke the planet.

i haven't read past page one.

i'm with cat on this that LL shouldn't submit to a sect of players who are obsessed with whether sl is a game or not. it's definitely a bad marketing move, much worse than calling it second life. put the two together and you have a real loser no matter how many articles the new york time writes on it. well maybe if they write enough...

personally i want all the gamer people to come to sl and if calling it a game helps that would be cool. many of them really do need a second life and would be totally hooked since sl is full of babes and their rl apartment is full of empty pizza boxes, but they just don't realize it. then they would buy my land, buy my guns, visit my website etc etc. but presently they are all saying - "secondlife? it's not a game? its like tso on steroids? no thanks i don't feel like playing barbie dolls."

sl is a hard game to sell. i have yet to succesfully convince a single friend to try it. then when the website says this is not a game it's a metaverse, a platform for joeschmo, that won't help my case at all.

Well simulation games have been around forever. Games are methods by which real life is explored and simulated, look at Advanced Squad Leader as a simulation. In fact the study of statistical simulations is called "Games theory." Games can also be fertile ground for the exploration of the human condition: Look at what has been done with DnD.

really at its core it boild down to the fact that we use monopoly money (even if it can be convereted) to play in a tightly controlled enviroment with definite rules. Sl is thus a game. And people seem to want to keep it thant way. In the discussions about teleporters, the advocate of telehubs insist that we will lost the fun of wondering about our creation. Well to be an effective tool, P2P teleporting with a solid directory is essential. Then Sl will become the Yahoo-like metaverse that everyone seems to want.

I think there are some awesome and interesting commercial applications for SL, but at this stage it is funded by entertainment dollars and thus to me it remains a game.

Yes, things like lost loved ones, war, bankruptcy, marriage, childbirth, etc. Robin stating that SL is not a game is not something that should be life altering, in my opinion. In other words, you decided to let it affect you to the point of stating "I am a bit shocked" and "The creative side of me is bummed out, there is no denying that." Not to mention, if it's "just a game", why should one take it so seriously as to having it change their life? That would indicate that said person takes it a little more seriously than is healthy, if they view it as "just a game".
Your first two sentences in the above paragraph are incongruent. You first state that it's not about whether it's a game or not, then you go on to say that LL is trying to push it one way or the other... I think, for the sake of this thread and the ensuing debate, it is about whether or not it's considered a game, by us, LL, potential customers, whomever. That is what we are discussing here, correct?
See my quotes of you in my first paragraph above. You used the words "shocked", and "bummed". It would appear as though something has gotten to you, not to mention, you just told me a bit ago that I was wrong for saying that nothing has changed. Now I am wrong for saying that something has changed?
Good news.
Again, if that part of the player base chooses to let that statement by Robin "alienate" them, I don't know what to tell you, other than you are still able to "play" SL exactly the way you did before she posted that.

Sometimes I think it is scary the way people hang so much weight on what an LL rep says. I would find it unnerving if I were Robin. I would probably be afraid to say anything, because of the forethought that people would use my words as weapons against each other.

Who is it you're disappointed and/or upset with here? Linden Lab? The "it's not a game" "chastisers"? Both?

I would also like to point out that the occurence of people stating that "SL is not a game" is nothing revolutionary, it has been going on for at least a year and a half now. As a matter of fact, I have been "chastised" by people who compartmentalize, for saying it wasn't a game on occasion. So what? I didn't allow that to change me.

If you call a piece of dogshit a rose, that's not gonna make it 1) smell any better or 2) easier to wipe off your shoe.

But if you call a rose a piece of dogshit, it might be a bit harder to sell that rose to someone.

And if you have something that you'd like to sell, but you're not precisely sure WHAT it is ~ because it's more about what the thing may BECOME, really ~ and thus you're not precisely sure what to CALL it, either ... perhaps it's best to just go ahead and call it a rose rather than calling it a piece of dogshit.

You follow me here?

Good.