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Consistent Message: SL is/isn't a game

Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
08-24-2005 18:58
Oh! A unified TIME-KEEPING reference.

I didn't realize that that was what this was about. I see now that her answer to you in the Hotline can indeed be read that way, and therefore I stand corrected (along with everyone else who didn't stick to that agenda).

In that case, I bow out, because I have no iinterest in helping limit either the Linden employees' speech or anyone else's in such an unnatural and heavy-handed fashion.

You can call it Dove, but it's still soap. You can create some other term for "game-time," but it's still gonna be game time to virtually everyone.

coco
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-24-2005 19:01
From: Cocoanut Koala

You can call it Dove, but it's still soap. You can create some other term for "game-time," but it's still gonna be game time to virtually everyone.

coco


Or the really cool kids call it PACIFIC TIME.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 19:01
From: Cocoanut Koala
You can call it Dove, but it's still soap. You can create some other term for "game-time," but it's still gonna be game time to virtually everyone.


Virtually everyone else?

Another they, huh? You've just got a big bag full of they!

edit: Also, it's Pacific time to everyone on the west coast. Is that in your virtual they?
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 19:03
Also, way to blow a great opportunity to get SL switched over to Greenwich Mean, as well as to adopt a 24 hour clock.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
08-24-2005 19:03
I can give an example of something that has happened to me and in fact I VERY OFTEN DO but whenever the example is something that goes against what you want to hear, or maybe seems "negative" to you, then you reject the example and trot out this whole thing about "persecuted coco" which is TOTALLY stupid as anyone who knows me knows, but you who don't seem to think you can get people to believe.

Let's talk about how persecuted and put-upon I personally feel because I mention what events I go to, or how nice Gene Pool was to me in the Welcome Area, or how fabulous somebody's build is, or how I am in the events committee, because how anybody CAN be in the events committee, or how it is not true, despite what Cienna says, that they will of course never listen to a thing I say, or how I have said time and again how good they are at listening, and how I have said time and again that there is no way they are going to treat me any differently from anyone else.

TRY THAT on for size, Enabran, and the rest of you. Go peddle your ridiculous theories elsewhere. And be glad I don't try to start one about YOU, which by the way, would hardly be DIFFICULT.

coco
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
08-24-2005 19:04
Enabran - if you are having to come up with some other kind of phrase to replace the term EVERYBODY - including the Lindens - uses to mean game time, in this and in ALL online games; namely, the phrase

"game time"

then OBVIOUSLY, yes, "virtually everyone else" calls it "game time."

coco

P.S. You're damn straight I have a whole bag-full of "they's," Enabran. "They" call it a grocery store. "They" call it a picnic. "They" call it the town council. "They" call it a meeting. "They" call it a coke. Except some places where "they" call it pop.

This new kick trying to discredit me couldn't GET much more idiotic, Enabran.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 19:07
From: Cocoanut Koala
Let's talk about how persecuted and put-upon I personally feel because I mention what events I go to, or how nice Gene Pool was to me in the Welcome Area, or how fabulous somebody's build is, or how I am in the events committee, because how anybody CAN be in the events committee, or how it is not true, despite what Cienna says, that they will of course never listen to a thing I say, or how I have said time and again how good they are at listening, and how I have said time and again that there is no way they are going to treat me any differently from anyone else.

TRY THAT on for size, Enabran, and the rest of you. Go peddle your ridiculous theories elsewhere. And be glad I don't try to start one about YOU, which by the way, would hardly be DIFFICULT.


Translation:

"Sometimes I've had positive experiences too! Nyah! .... Showed him."

That's a little sad.
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
08-24-2005 19:07
From: Enabran Templar
Also, way to blow a great opportunity to get SL switched over to Greenwich Mean, as well as to adopt a 24 hour clock.


I don't want either. I'm perfectly happy with SL being on a 12-hour Pacific time clock.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 19:09
From: Jonquille Noir
I don't want either. I'm perfectly happy with SL being on a 12-hour Pacific time clock.


Tell that to the Europeans. AM and PM is really hard to keep track of in ANY context, much less one way outside your own timezone. Even if we kept PST, we need to adopt a 24 hour clock.

(Honestly, 12 hour time is stupid anyway. I've been using 24 hour clocks since I was... uh, 12 ;) )
_____________________
From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
08-24-2005 19:18
What you are telling me, Enabran, is a lot like what others have told me in this thread when they have said I need to just "get over" whatever I don't like.

You are just adding that I must never tell my personal experience with anything - positive or negative - that is germaine to the question.

What the heck experience do you expect me to think about here? The experience I had at the dentist's office last Tuesday?

Just go back and LOOK at I originally said. I invite you ALL TO DO THAT. Just TELL me where that is anything of a persecution complex.

This irritates the hell out of me, especially coming from people who can't accept that "game time" is the commonly used phrase for people who play online games.

And I would HATE Greenwich time and I would hate FAR WORSE that damn 24-hour time.

And here's another thing. This whole conversation is entirely ridiculous.

We are actually sitting here wasting time about what to say so we don't have to say the dreaded "game" word?

To hell with that.

What total nonsense. I'm going to build.

coco
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
08-24-2005 19:19
From: Cocoanut Koala
As to your second paragraph, I'm not either and never was concerned that LL doesn't consider it a game. In fact, I always considered it kind of interesting every time they talked about that.

I am saying they should not correct their players for using the term "ingame." Ever. And I'm further saying that shouldn't happen to people at the welcome spots.

And someone should explain to me the fact that if they never intended it to be a game, why has it been presented as a game, ever since I first heard of it and read about it, back when it was a baby in beta?

And if they are going to CORRECT us for saying "ingame," then the least I expect from them is quick removal of all references to SL on all gaming sites. And to reject all requests for interviews from people writing articles about online games.

And someone can also explain to me, that if this is some kind of developer's program, for developers and not gamers, who the heck are we developing the stuff for? Each other?

And if we buy it from each other, to use in some trivial or fantasy fashion, does that make us gamers?

coco
I've explained twice now why letting people think of SL as a game in the traditional way is a problem - LL isn't set up to provide the entertainment. We do that. New users need to understand that. Why educating new users is a problem is beyond my ken.

Once a user understands that, then what they call SL afterward makes zero difference.

As to removing references from gamer sites - that's patently absurd. Just beacue it's the closest niche to pidgeon-hole SL in does not mean SL really fits, and they're just accepting attention from wherever it comes.

And, of course we're developing stuff for one another. Who else is there?
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 19:22
From: Jillian Callahan
Who else is there?


Why, there's also the dreaded they!
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
08-24-2005 19:24
From: Enabran Templar
Why, there's also the dreaded they!
They don't pay a descent wage. :p
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
08-24-2005 19:46
From: Cocoanut Koala
Enabran, the rest of the world treats this as a game.
This is exactly the type of statement that makes my eyes roll back in my head.

The amount of presumption displayed by you through statements like that is beyond mind-boggling. Who do you think you are when you presume to speak for "the rest of the world"? You're not speaking to children here you know, and speaking for myself, I am not ignorant or blind - I can see the outright fallacy contained in such statements. It's hard to take any of the decent points you make seriously when you festoon them with that type of BS.

You scream about people who have "corrected" others when they refer to it as a game, yet you summarily ignore the FACT that people who get all high and mighty and tell those who don't call it a game that they are "losers with no first life". This has happened to ME personally, and I have seen it happen to others as well. It DOES go both ways, and you just respond by strapping on your blinders and repeating the same freakin' thing over and over and over again, hoping that if you say it enough times, you can obscure any contrary opinions, and that people will just lick it up and say "you go Coco!" Groan.

Being that you will apparently never understand that you do not speak for "the rest of the world", I will leave you to wallow in your self created sea of self-pity and assumptive rubbish.

You never have to worry about Nolan Nash "persecuting" you again. Ciao.
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Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
08-24-2005 19:47
From: Enabran Templar
Tell that to the Europeans. AM and PM is really hard to keep track of in ANY context, much less one way outside your own timezone. Even if we kept PST, we need to adopt a 24 hour clock.

(Honestly, 12 hour time is stupid anyway. I've been using 24 hour clocks since I was... uh, 12 ;) )


Okay... "Europeans, I'm perfectly happy with the Pacific time 12 hour clock, and I don't want it to change to GMT or a 24 hour clock."

AM and PM are hard to keep track of? Man, people must be really baffled by BC and AD then.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 19:49
From: Jonquille Noir
Okay... "Europeans, I'm perfectly happy with the Pacific time 12 hour clock, and I don't want it to change to GMT or a 24 hour clock."


Why so nasty lately? :(
_____________________
From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
08-24-2005 19:52
From: Enabran Templar
Why so nasty lately? :(


What was nasty about that? You told me to tell my opinion to the Europeans, so I did.
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
08-24-2005 20:05
From: Enabran Templar
Why so nasty lately? :(


How was Jonquille remotely nasty? I agree - if AM and PM is hardly tricky, I am sure the complexities of daylight savings time must be mind blowing.
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Cristiano


ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less.

~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more.

Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 20:23
From: Cristiano Midnight
How was Jonquille remotely nasty? I agree - if AM and PM is hardly tricky, I am sure the complexities of daylight savings time must be mind blowing.


Not a big fan of that one, either. Made me late for my first job when I was 15. :D

I seriously look forward to the day when we abolish the time zones and all keep the same clock.

In any case, I felt the point about opening the discussion to make it easy for international users to understand when things are happening was a fair one, not to be so flippantly dismissed in light of LL's recent overtures toward an international audience. Maybe I'm being sensitive, though. :)
_____________________
From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Jonquille Noir
Lemon Fresh
Join date: 17 Jan 2004
Posts: 4,025
08-24-2005 20:33
From: Enabran Templar
In any case, I felt the point about opening the discussion to make it easy for international users to understand when things are happening was a fair one, not to be so flippantly dismissed in light of LL's recent overtures toward an international audience. Maybe I'm being sensitive, though. :)


I wasn't aware that stating my preference was considered being flippant, and I definitely wasn't aware that it would be considered nasty. Were I a bit flakier, I would promise to only agree from this point on and never again say what I really thought for fear of someone taking it wrong, but.. eh.. screw that. We all know that won't happen.

Discussion usually involves multiple views on an issue, not just cheerleading.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
08-24-2005 20:38
k
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From: Hiro Pendragon
Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court.


Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
08-24-2005 21:12
From: Weedy Herbst
Let's examine the inverse for a minute Cat. If somebody goes to a developer site and sees that SL is just another "game", would that be a fair desciption of the product?

By insisting that SL is a "game" is a moot point.

You can look at a Ferrari 3 different ways:

1 - Exploit of opulence.
2 - Metal, rubber and plastic.
3 - Precision engineered automobile.

Although remarkably various, none of the above is wrong.

With online games, comes the need for game masters. Something LL has made clear from the outset, are not in the mood to go that route.

Gamers expect a certain level of service from the provider with the interface, resolution of conflicts, provision of content and goof-proof dialog boxes etc. Games don't allow you to access sim data and debug menus, no less build and scripting tools.

I would do a great disservice to any new subscriber by explaining that SL is not a game insomuch as it is a developers tool set. The response to that is 100% favorable, not a single person was disappointed in that. In fact, they are delighted to not be cast into a competitive gaming environment.

Games are largely, male oriented projects. I don't mean this in a sexist way at all, but SL appeals to probably the widest target audience, especially those disinterested in games.

So Cat....thank you for your comments, you have every right to call it a game.

However, I do take offence to being called a "player". I run a business in SL, I make every effort to provide my customers with a high quality product and offer support and service in a prompt manner.

I am a subscriber and a resident. Nothing more, nothing less.



Weedy I could not agree with you more. Now what if next week LL says this is not a marketing tool? If sl is a game or not is realy not the point entirely that I am trying to make here. I used myself and my experiences in sl as examples as they are cold hard facts. Lets take all of this talk about if its a game or not a game out of the equasion for now. I have a couple of questions that have gone unanswered;

1) ok its not a game, how will LL market this product now? Since historicaly they have presented it in their marketing as a game on such sites as mmorpg.com and such. Its still listed on mmorpg.com under "real life" not simulation not fantasy etc.

2) this bold move in my opinion only divides the community, gamer vs non gamer. How is this good for any part of the community?

For me the bottom line is you take the word game out and that automaticaly removes the world fun from what SL is. I cringed today while playing something else while I referred to it as a game. That is how this is affecting the player base. We have to be careful as not to call it a game around the Lindens now. Sillyness, stupid, and bad business all come to mind. I just do not for the life of me see how alienating any part of SL from it's self will in the end be good for LL business or in world business.

Cat
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Weedy Herbst
Too many parameters
Join date: 5 Aug 2004
Posts: 2,255
08-24-2005 21:24
From: Cocoanut Koala
You are just adding that I must never tell my personal experience with anything - positive or negative - that is germaine to the question.


You being the perpetual victim has NOTHING to do with THIS thread.

(See... I can be SNIDE too with mid sentence caps)

From: Cocoanut Koala
What the heck experience do you expect me to think about here? The experience I had at the dentist's office last Tuesday?

Just go back and LOOK at I originally said. I invite you ALL TO DO THAT. Just TELL me where that is anything of a persecution complex..


90% of 2000 posts.


From: Cocoanut Koala
This irritates the hell out of me, especially coming from people who can't accept that "game time" is the commonly used phrase for people who play online games.

And I would HATE Greenwich time and I would hate FAR WORSE that damn 24-hour time.

And here's another thing. This whole conversation is entirely ridiculous.


You seem to have an exclusive on dismissal and hatred.

From: Cocoanut Koala
We are actually sitting here wasting time about what to say so we don't have to say the dreaded "game" word?

To hell with that.

What total nonsense. I'm going to build.

coco


The Lindens have said ITS NOT A GAME - GET OVER IT!

Tomorrow, no matter the topic, I'm sure you will remind us how hard done by you are.
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Nolan Nash
Frischer Frosch
Join date: 15 May 2003
Posts: 7,141
08-24-2005 21:27
From: Catherine Cotton
I cringed today while playing something else while I referred to it as a game. That is how this is affecting the player base.
Nope, this is how it's affecting you. Another "speaker for all" who will now be summarily ignored. :rolleyes:
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Catherine Cotton
Tis Elfin
Join date: 2 Apr 2003
Posts: 3,001
08-24-2005 21:30
From: Weedy Herbst
You being the perpetual victim has NOTHING to do with THIS thread.

(See... I can be SNIDE too with mid sentence caps)



90% of 2000 posts.




You seem to have an exclusive on dismissal and hatred.



The Lindens have said ITS NOT A GAME - GET OVER IT!

Tomorrow, no matter the topic, I'm sure you will remind us how hard done by you are.



How would you feel if someone dismissed your posts, feeling or thoughts?

Some of us are not yet ready to get over what we feel is one of the biggest errors in judgement in the short history of SL.

Give respect to get respect.

Cat
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