Canada says "NO" to Bush

Oh, no doubt about that, Ingrid. That's actually one positive thing about forums like this one; we are exposed to alternate information sources and can form much more well-rounded opinions. No doubt, we couldn't ask for a better neighbor than Canada. I'm actually trying to figure out why this topic has pushed my buttons. I guess it's somewhat akin to finding out, after years of blissful ignorance, that your best friend really doesn't like you all that much. I'm probably taking it way too personally, so I'll take a double-dose of Juauni's chill pills and bow out gracefully.

very funny!

1> this thread is about a specific event
2> you are trying to infuse it with your perception of a broader cultural phenomenon. these perceptions have no connection to the content or tone of this thread
3> none of the canadians in this thread even conform to your perceptions. we all like america and americans in general.
4> if you were to start a new thread "the commonwealth is a snobbery and i, paolo, am fed up of it" we could engage that perception of yours directly. for now it is very confusing as it seems you are using your percieved victimization as some kind of passionate appeal for canadians to reconsider laser beams and robot missiles.

I disagree. That would be akin to saying that a child who thinks his Mother is the best mom in the world is suffering from an Oedipus complex. He's just a kid, he loves his mother...as all normal children do. It takes a sad mind to intrepret that belief as something wrong. Ask around to the other esteemed members of the SL community who live in countries other than the U.S., if they are honest they will tell you that their respective countries are the best...and this is normal as well. It's simple pride and love...and you cannot be proud of or love something that doesn't exist, such as a world government.

And on the notion of some kind of World Government, ask those residents of those other countries how they would feel about disintegrating their respective borders, renouncing their national identities, and giving themselves over to an all encompassing world body...I think you would see that America is not the only country intrested in retaining their nationalism, whether you define it as jingoism or just simple pride.

OK, I said I would bow out, but since you've baited me, here goes.

1> The topic may be about a specific event, but there were some pretty strong statements -- some which may be perceived as inflammatory -- made in post #1 by the thread originator. I am commenting on one, albeit more abstract, discussion related to this topic. So, I disagree: My perceptions do have a connection to the content and/or tone of this thread. Why is my perception so threatening to you?

2> I "infused" my perceptions on page #1 of this thread, not somewhere in the middle of the debate.

3> What is my perception of Canadians? Can you sum that up for me in a nice sound bite?

4> Sure, I could start another thread, and maybe I will. But, it seems that what you are really saying is that you don't like what I have to say and that you wish I'd just stfu. If that's the case, just come right out and say it. I'm a big boy and I won't report you (unless you call me Nellie).

Naivete on display marvelously there Ju. Surely you aren't ignorant enough to think that Canada wouldn't be the very next target if the US were overthrown do you?

The fact is that we are family due to our proximity. The enemies of Canada's are the enemies of the US. The enemies of the US are the enemies of Canada. To sit up there and basically say that you couldn't give a rat’s ass if the US goes down the toilet is just STOOOOOOPID. Take us away and within 24-hrs whala... no more Canada.

Get your head outa your arse there. We both need each other and for the most part we both love each other like brothers in a family. Quit your damn divisive bickering. Quit your petty bullshit hate mongering. You are in the minority. The average US citizen loves Canada and the average Canadian citizen loves the US.

Oh, and who the hell REALLY knows what N. Korea will do with their nukes. Prevention and protection is what the defense system is all about. Ride the backs of the US and it's citizens tax dollars to defend you but don't dare pretend to not need what we have to offer. WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!!!!!!!!

This is just a theory I have, as far as I know there wasn't a finished plan for missile defense.

For all I know Bush & Martin's discussion went like this:

Bush: Paulie, we need to use Norad for missile defense but its gonna be hard to get buy in.

Martin: Ok, I'll just say you want to put weapons in space and then I'll say "Canada will not support the weaponization of space" and then I'll utter something like "But we will honour our commitments to support Norad in any way that is needed"

Bush: That'll get us both re-elected! I bet old ladies will walk up after the deal is done and give you a hug.

(and they did!)


What the public should have done is said we will not allow Norad to become missile defense headquarters but it's too late now. I'm weirded out that the liberals didn't say "we want to wait until you have a finished plan so all the Canadians can read it". Weeeird stuff.

That's a good analogy so let's take it a bit farther... I'm going to assume that you're not "just a kid" anymore. I have great parents, but now that I'm no longer a twelve year old I don't have any illusions that I have the greatest parents in the world. I might say it, but I know it's purely rhetorical. I haven't been the child of all the other parents so how could I make the claim? If I said it and wholly believed it that would be irrational. Nationalism is the same. If you make the claim that your country is the greatest in the world it's irrational unless you have extensive knowledge and experience being a citizen of all the other countries on the planet. If you don't, it's simply empty rhetoric... the kind of empty rhetoric that's used to prime a populace to be willing to die for their flag.



Where exactly did I advocate a world government?

My point is, why is it wrong to be proud of your country? Or is it just wrong to be proud to be an American? What does it hurt? The opinions of those who have the same feelings themselves of their own respective nations? I'm of a decent age, and have met many parents of many children...and yet mine are still the best...in my eyes. But by your logic, the child is indeed wrong in ever believing his parents are the best, because he hasn't lived with other families...that's ridiculous. Take the flip side, are the people of other countries wrong for disliking America...since most have never lived here to see a different point of view?






Maybe you plan to exist in a precivilized state of nature? And, as a citizen of Earth that doesn't care for America, where do you plan to live? Atlantis? Earthtopia? The Arctic Circle? The Earth is a planet...no police, houses, protection, broadband, infrastructure.....

I'm just a citizen of outer space. All you Earth bastards annoy me, honestly.

I choose the moon base, thank you very much. Dirty Earth people.

I'd choose a moon base to mine Helium3 and resell it back to Earth and make more money than all the Saudis, Kuwaities, etc combined. For those who remain uninformed, here is a tid bit for ya.

Source: http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html


Moon's Helium-3 Could Power Earth
By Julie Wakefield
Special to SPACE.com
posted: 05:30 pm ET
30 June 2000



Researchers and space enthusiasts see helium 3 as the perfect fuel source: extremely potent, nonpolluting, with virtually no radioactive by-product. Proponents claim it’s the fuel of the 21st century. The trouble is, hardly any of it is found on Earth. But there is plenty of it on the moon.

Society is straining to keep pace with energy demands, expected to increase eightfold by 2050 as the world population swells toward 12 billion. The moon just may be the answer.

"Helium 3 fusion energy may be the key to future space exploration and settlement," said Gerald Kulcinski, Director of the Fusion Technology Institute (FTI) at the University of Wisconsin at Madison.

Scientists estimate there are about 1 million tons of helium 3 on the moon, enough to power the world for thousands of years. The equivalent of a single space shuttle load or roughly 25 tons could supply the entire United States' energy needs for a year, according to Apollo17 astronaut and FTI researcher Harrison Schmitt.

Cash crop of the moon

When the solar wind, the rapid stream of charged particles emitted by the sun, strikes the moon, helium 3 is deposited in the powdery soil. Over billions of years that adds up. Meteorite bombardment disperses the particles throughout the top several meters of the lunar surface.

"Helium 3 could be the cash crop for the moon," said Kulcinski, a longtime advocate and leading pioneer in the field, who envisions the moon becoming "the Hudson Bay Store of Earth." Today helium 3 would have a cash value of $4 billion a ton in terms of its energy equivalent in oil, he estimates. "When the moon becomes an independent country, it will have something to trade."

Nothing is wrong with it as long you understand that it's just rhetoric. There's a lot wrong with it if you don't. It's the kind of thing that causes pointless pissing contests, brawls between drunken idiots at sporting events, and wars that kill hundreds of thousands because people can't agree on whose imaginary man in the sky is better. Personally I try to keep in mind that everyone on the planet is more alike than they are different. I don't make the claim that my country is better than everyone else's for the same reason I don't make the claim that I'm better than everyone else... it's arrogant and impolite.



Canada, Switzerland, or maybe the Netherlands... they all look pretty good to me

Now this is arrogance and rhetoric in the first degree. Is this the attitude of a closest ally?

If there is a war, you brought it on yourselves. Canada wants none of it.

No wonder why the US is becoming so hated.

Perhaps, but when American's come banging on the door to impose itself and it's values upon them, the answer is no.

Why does right always have to be the American point of view, and why is wrong any one who oppposes? Can you say "tyranny"?

Instead of spewing out pointless rhetoric how about taking issue with ANYTHING I said. You cannot deny the truth. How about showing an inkling of appreciation for everything that we do for your country instead of whining about... um... well... who the hell knows what you are even whining about. I see nothing whatsoever of value in your post.

Oh, and if there is a war you had better hope and pray that we win it because as I stated, you would be next and there is very little you could do without big brother to defend you. Go ahead and tell us how good a neighbor Iran would be you ingrate.

Why is this thread still here?

I still don't see the point of a missile defense shield. Who's going to be stupid enough to lob a missile at the largest nuclear superpower on the planet? It's not like they'll be able to hide where it came from, and within 30 minutes, that location would be reduced to a very large, shiny plain of radioactive glass.

It's called nuclear deterrant. You think nations build monster-bombs in order to actually throw them at each other? That's absolutely silly.

More worrying to me is the recent trend towards developing 'mini-nukes'.

You obviously didnt read the threads. Especially the parts where we are each others biggest trade partner or the parts where the US is capable of defending itself or anyone it chooses. All too many of you think the world as ungrateful, in some cases it's warranted but it's abused. Thats my point, you just proved it.

This is the truth as I see it. Canada is free country, with laws and standards equal to most in the free world. Likewise the US, having similar standards, we maintain an economy and reciprocal agreement policy on many issues such as immigration, business, and defence.

We differ in some ways. Taxation, health care, cultural and social issues. Conservative policies are not the only issue on the plate here. The Liberal buracracy is way too large and inefficient, equally as cost ineffective as military spending. Most Canadians live on the fence, having the ability to see issues from both sides, sometimes we lean, sometimes to extreme. Generally Canadian's lean to the side of peace. There is nothing wrong with that.

Canadians are not Americans and many of us are grateful not to be that way. That does not make us ungrateful. It's a 2 way street, we have a stake in this too, and we are entitled to our soverignty.

It has been our role for decades as peacekeepers. In my view, they may well be wars fought, probably led by Americans, and Canadians will follow. The Canadians did not condemn the Americans for the war in Iraq at an official level. We do view it as something which needed to be done, but in a the wrong way. I feel that even the most staunch war supporter sees an element of truth in that statement.

Although I may be coined as a "liberal", I can respect most conservative viewpoints. Nobody disputes fiscal reponsibility or personal freedoms. This thread is about both of those things. I am proud that my country sees this, and said no. It's completely un-necessary. It would make little difference in a big war, that will probably never happen. We have domestic issue to deal with, and we will attend to those, thank you.

I say to my fellow Canadians, sure our navy is weak, but our ground troops are among the finest in the world. And we have a serious air force.

Our CF-18's would not hesitate to strap on the ordinance and take flight to protect the US from attack. We are part of the UN, NORAD and NATO and we stand on guard for thee.

Ungrateful? I think not.

Cross:


The point you aren't seeing is the Gov't taking steps to protect our nation from any possible threat. Regardless if you don't see any threats on the horizon. Just like I said before, in Peace Time, You prepare for War. You don't wait until the enemy (whomever that might be) to start fueling their missiles to then decide it might be a good idea to have a missile shield. You do it now, so if the threat ever materializes, you've got an ace in your back pocket.

See, your thinking just burns me up. Your mindset is more dangerous than any weapon system an enemy can create. Its a mindset that says "Ohh, I don't see any threat, as such, we don't need any defensive weapon system". Did you ever take a History course in school? Did you recall reading about WWII? Remember how the Germans launch Blitzkreig on Poland and the only defensive weapon system Poland had was men on Horse back? Against Tanks and Mech. Inf. Poland "FAILED" to prepare for war during peace time after WWI. And look what happen. Its military was in piss poor shape to defend itself. As such, in matter of days, Poland was occupied by the Nazis. Betchya they wish they would have bought modern tanks, planes, etc during the 20s/30s, don't ya think?

The same history lesson applies in the 21st century. I don't care if its Kim Jong Il who is a threat, the Taliban, or maybe China in 50 years. The point is that you research, develop, build, improve, etc a weapon system which can defend the United States (and our Allies) against Present or Future threats during Peace Time. Because just like WWII, you don't know when some rogue nation isn't going to think "Ohh the US is so powerful, I won't dare attack them", they are just going to fire all their missiles and wipe several million people off the map on their way out the door. You think in terms of future leaders with nukes being sane rational people. Yet the rain of nukes on your head is all based on the whims of Kim Jong Il or some radical nut 50 years from now.

So get off your Peace Bandwagon High Horse and think for 2/seconds. The Weapons of the 21st century are more deadly then anything in the past. And delivery systems like ICBMs are being aquired by more and more countries. Its just a matter of time before some Nut Job has both a Nuke, An ICMB, and a score to settle with the US. And when that day comes, I'd like to know that money invested into a missile shield NOW will pay off for all Americans at that time.


Damn Hippies....

And another thing... Deterrent is a word for rational countries who wish to preserve life. Do you think Afganistan run by the Taliban pre-9/11 was that type of country? And imagine if they had Nukes with ICBMs. Then what smartty pants? Do we yield to the Taliban so we can save San Francisco or New York from being wiped off the map?

Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis? What happen to deterrent then? The nation was at DEFCON 2. At Defcon 2, the United States has missiles fueled and ready to fly, bombers scrambled and in the air. In 1962, we came ==> <== that close to Global Nuclear War. If we would have gone to Defcon (1), the missiles would have been launched and the bombers would have started their flights into the Soviet Union and we'd be in a state of WAR. And all this from 2 relatively rational countries over a missiles in Cuba. Imagine if N. Korea became "buddies" with some nearby neighbor to the United States and the whole issue was revisited in 2020? Then I'm pretty sure you'd see the need for a missile shield.

Get with the program and put down the weed.



The Strategic Air Command's fleet of 1,436 B-52 and B-47 bombers and 172 intercontinental ballistic missiles was moved to DEFCON 2, the highest military alert short of all-out war. One-eighth of the bombers were in the air at all times for 30 days, prepared to drop nuclear weapons on the targets in Cuba and the Soviet Union. The 579 fighters of the air force's Tactical Air Command were programmed to fly 1,190 combat sorties in the invasion's first 24 hours. ... More than 100,000 combat-ready army infantrymen were deployed to ports along the East Coast. A huge navy fleet, backed by 40,000 marines, was steaming, moments away from battle stations, through international waters in the Caribbean and the South Atlantic. The American war machine was at its ‘highest state of readiness,' according to military documents made public years later, and awaited only a go signal from the White House.” [1] This was the Cuban missile crisis, 39 years ago.
Source: http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/feb2001/cuba-f07_prn.shtml

A Cuban missile crisis is unlikely. These days, with patrols on high alert, the movement of these things are highly monitored. I don't think Castro is capable of starting WW3.

But I do find your historical perspective interesting. It is important to consider history or befall to its repetition as they say. They are just historical facts however, I view much of what you posted, as good reason to why we opted out. See, thats the beauty of democracy, and if so adamantly believe in defending it to the the degree that you do, then there will be concessions. This is one of them. Our passive nature in the global community, is important to us. That's not going to change any time soon.

Our defensive shield is adequate. It is superior to any other continent. Canada has a long coastline, most of it remote and impassable. There are no targets. Vancouver has no strategic millitary purpose. CFB Esquimault is not much of a base. Otherwise it's trees and moose. with alot of rock around.

Missile bases are targets. Thanks, but no thanks.

Weedy, Weedy.. How can you say that the past can never be revisited? Didn't we learn this lesson thoughtout all of mankinds history? The technology has changed, but man has not. Just because wars aren't fought with men on horseback with swords, doesn't mean that all the causes that lead to war can never happen in the future. And when they do in the 21st century, the weapons that kill will take millions with them.

Imagine this scenerio. Radical leaders in Taiwan declare that Taiwan is now a soverign nation with no ties to Mainlain China. The communist leaders in China will not stand for this and send warships and troops to invade Taiwan. Because of this, the United States sends troops/ships to defend Taiwan. All out war breaks out between the United States and China. Since the US military's conventional forces are much better, we start winning. China will not tolerate this and decides to launch Nuclear Missiles at the United States to tip the balance of power in the war. (BOOM) Global ThermoNuclear War has just begun.

Now, wind the clock back to March 2005. "Don't ya wish we had a missile shield?"

You say missile bases are targets? And I say, defenseless countries are targets. Just like Poland in WWII. If they had a strong crack military, do you think Hilter would have attacked? Would King Willam of Normandy have attacked King Harold of England in 1066 if Harold had a strong Navy to intercept William in the Channel? The Norsemen might have become seafood and all the world would be different.

War and Peace are the Yen and Yang of human existance. Regardless of the technology, reasons for war, etc. We are still human. Love, Hate, Greed, Lust, are within the very people who lead us into peace or war. What you think is impossible in 2005 might be a reality in 2020 or 2050. You cannot predict the future. But what you can do is "estimate" possible future threats and prepare for them today, not tomorrow. England didn't know if Nazi Germany was going attack it in 1939, but thanks to Churchhill, England ramped up production of Spitfires and Hurricanes during peace time. And because of that, when war broke out and the Luftwaffe was dropping bombs on London, England had the 'ability' to fight back. Unlike Poland who was wiped off the map in a few days because they failed to prepare for war.



"Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
-George Santayana

this is all very interesting but i am not naive. i have a different frame of reference, and it is not orange alert blue alert pink alert green alert. i believe canada should increase military spending. i don't believe it should be on robot missiles and fricken laser beams.

it is really is funny you people think canada is under threat! "LOL!"

Your frame of reference is with your head firmly stuck up your ass... America is by far the best ally you have ever had or could hope to have you ungrateful bleep. Go ahead and tell us how long you think you would last on this planet w/o us if someone strong enough to conquer us did so.

Just for fun how about naming the top 5 things that the US has done to fuck up your country or events that are proof as to how shitty neighbors we are or just stfu.

Oh, and I’m still waiting for how you would like it if oh Iran were down south instead of us. Go ahead and explain how mush better they would be.

Btw, my words are not for the majority of Canadians who I think are awesome neighbors, just the minority of fuckwads who want to bitch, whine and complain and do not appreciate all that we do for you.

It's called focussing on a realistic threat. Nobody is going to lob nukes around in a way that a missile shield of this sort is going to be effective. I'd be more scared of the thousands of shipping containers that get moved in and out of US ports every day.

And I seriously doubt that, if China decided to invade Taiwan, that the US military would be anywhere near that mess. If it did come to a nuclear exchange with China (and don't think the Russians would stay out of it), we're all dead, missile shield or no, unless DARPA or someone has come up with something seriously magical.

Anyone who has the infrastructure to build, maintain, and launch an ICBM has enough to lose never to launch the damn thing. They're basically "If I'm going, you're coming with me" weapons. I suppose if the US did put another nuclear-capable nation in that position, then a launch might happen... but that's why there's this thing called 'diplomacy'.

Cross, the missile shield isn't really my issue. Y'all don't want to do that it's ok with me.

I am sick of all of the US bashing by people who are SUPPOSED to be our friends and allies. We have been mutually beneficial neighbors for many years now and yes, the US may have it's internal bickering which makes me sick too but that doesn't mean that y’all need to jump in on it too.

To my knowledge there are very few negative consequences for either side that have EVER come from our alliance. How about acting like we are as good an ally as we actually are.