Canada says "NO" to Bush

your offensive term, "widget".

HEheheheh.... I Love Widgets...

Most Americans I meet online (fellow Americans, I should say) seem to be republican, apolitical, or libertarians. I have been told only the other day that someone planned to pray for my soul, which I thought was kind, but a bit judgemental.

Where do the lefties hang, anyway?

ps. hi and many hugs to my right wing friends (though one libertarian i know claims to be merely so far left of socialist that he is perceived as rightwing unfairly) hehe.

i'm attaching a map of the pacific rim for your education alby. please count how many time the red line crosses canada and get back to me.

I would have if I could've but I met my husband who lives here in the U.S.



You are correct - all in all it balances out to being about the same. However the one thing that I had in Canada that I don't have here is quality of life. In the U.S. I pay an outrageous amount for medical insurance and have so far, been give substandard care compared to what I had in Canada. (Mostly due to HMO's and their Administrators and not due to U.S. Doctors BTW).

All the scare stories about socialized health insurance are just that - stories. When my ex needed knee surgery in Canada he got the same doctor that operated on Ronald Regan at Royal Inland Hospital and was scheduled for the surgery in less than one month.

Try and even get an appointment for a specialist in any major U.S. city in less than one month. It is nearly not possible.

Insurance companies and their greed are a pague on this great nation we call America.



Yes - I agree they need to recoup the cost and to generate a reasonable profit margin. But their woes are a direct result of their greed and their desire to control the political climate of America. Not long ago I posted a link to a page that reported how much companies (and which companies) contributed to political campaigns and how much they spent on lobbying. Pharmacuticals and insurance companies individually spent more than big oil.

They would probably be making a nice healthy profit if they cut back on their political lobbying and asshat commercials that they run on public television. Not to mention all the stupid junk mail that they send you when they get your name off of AARP's list.

Truly it is a disgrace.



Actually, the government controlled very little in my life. Far, far less than corporate America now controls. In Canada, I never had to take a piss test to get a job. Never had to worry about some company selling my personal information or about identity theft, never had to worry about the local RCMP kicking in my door because I sent an email out that was critical of the Canadian PM or government.

Also - I was never robbed and never had any sort of crime perpetuated against me.

That is not true of the time that I have lived here in the U.S. I was in fact, mugged in Birmingham AL. My car was broken into in California and my husbands car was stolen twice in five years in Florida.

So from a quality of life perspective - things were better in Canada.

That said, I believe that the United States is a great country and frankly it has qualities that are distinctly different than Canada but those qualities lie in the brilliant, innovative American people and not Alby, in American Corporations, most of whom have become very corrupt, controlling, criminal and disgraceful. Need I give you a list, beginning with Enron?

I prefer to live my life with my goals set toward how happy I was when I lived as opposed to how much I have when I die.

And before you decide to label me as another fucking hippy - bear in mind that I spent a good part of my career in law enforcement in the U.S. and that I lost a sister who was a nurse in Vietnam, and that both my Father and Husband served in Vietnam in the U.S. military. If the war had not been ending when I approached being old enough to serve, I would have gone as well because I lived in the U.S. at the time. I also have a brother who just returned from Iraq and another who was on the Stark when it was hit during the first Iraq war.

Just because someone does not base their values on commerical interests or their trust in corporate entities dosen't mean that they don't love their country nor does it give you the right to label them in a derogatory manner.

the topic of this thread is about canada turning down partnership in the project.

I'd love to find out how. Over the last ten years the Canadian Armed Forces in both manpower and equipment have been cut back to a dangerous degree, and the training cycles are just not sufficient to maintain a proper state of readiness. It's true that the likelihood of Canada being invaded is virtually nil, but the lack of an effective military also hinders the possibilty of assisting in peacekeeping missions and the safety of Canadian forces should they do so.
The United States discontinued our "Plan Scarlet", the operational planning for an invasion of Canada some seventy years ago. The only way we would ever intervene militarily in Canada would be in a situational scenario involving the political breakaway of Quebec, not something I see as all that likely. The fact that several western provinces have done more than toy with the idea of joining the United States leads to other scenarios of the "if you can't beat 'em, buy 'em" type.

You shouldn't be surprised Paolo. We're reaping what our jingoistic redneck xenophobic countrymen have sown. You can't blame anyone for wanting to knock us down off our annoying high horse. The rest of the world is sick to death of the "USA #1" crap, and so am I... and I live here! If it wasn't so damn cold up there I'd move.

What did You say Nolan? I couldn't hear you over the din from all those ten commandment plaques being nailed up on every flat surface.

Well, what I posted about being right was meant to be humorous, at least partly.

I'll go out on a limb here and say that, basically, most Canadians think a 'missile defense shield' would be needlessly expensive, and pointless. Also, the... approach which was used by the US administration to pitch this plan at the Canadian government seemed bordering on bullying, which, as a minority government, giving into would have been political suicide for them. Canadians seem all laid back and everything, but we can be plenty patriotic when we feel someone's stepping on our toes, which is kind of how we've perceived it. It only got worse after we said no, and had US official representatives telling us we'd given up our sovereignty... that's really not the best way to nurture a friendship.

Note, of course, that I'm talking about the US administration, not the general populace. I personally don't think the government down there is doing a terribly good job of representing the people, lately. In general, you lot are pretty good neighbors.

As for the right/wrong thing... I personally think Canada made the right decision. It would've been, as I've said, a waste of funding and effort. Our military is badly funded enough as it is. A lot of this nonsense is just a bunch of political gorilla chest-beating, anyway, kids fighting over how to put the Legos together.

Really, Canada doesn't need the US to protect itself.. I mean, who the hell wants to invade Canada? After all, how many cultures in the world are possibly capable of living in igloos the year round?

Oh, I dunno. Global warming, peak oil, lots of evil scenarios could occur and everything could go for shit.

Countries could start invading countries. Canada would be a very very juicy target.

However, at the moment, we have absolutely no one we need protecting from. We're globally well liked, even by most americans.

This isn't actually because we're really nice people, it's just that we can just afford to be nice.

Being competely self sufficient we don't need to invade anyone else to maintain our standard of living.

The US, by necessity, needs to export evil to maintain it's particular standard of living. I'm sure we'd do the same thing if we had 250 million people and not that many natural resources.

LMAO - this is very similar to what my husband said. I keep trying to tell him - it's not that damn cold and besides, it's a dry cold. Seems though that he knows too much about science to buy that one.

Yay Canada!!! We Will Be Moving There Within The Year!!! Woot!! :d

Depends on if the cultures are active or inactive. From experience, I find that frozen yogurt is great!

Last I heard, a really dimwitted judge lost his job for failing to remove a ten commandments display.

So are you telling me if some folks in say, Wyoming start pushing for satanistic public displays that it would be open season on the rest of the folks who live in Wyoming? Even if they themselves to are against such displays??

You must not have been around for Korg and other right wingers battles with the left leaning majority on these forums. Generally speaking, artistic communities tend to lean left...

At any rate, there is a predominently left leaning crowd here, ask any forum junkie.

Somehow, I get the feeling if the situation were reversed, you wouldn't support this sentiment Chip.

ROTFLMAO!!! I shot milk out of my nose when I read this!!!

Sigh.

A bit OT, but I just read some interesting excerpts from the supreme court hearing on ten commandments displays a few minutes ago.

Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott: "I seriously question whether or not a crucifix would be constitutionally acceptable in that same location, and for the very same reasons which I'm articulating why the Ten Commandments would be acceptable in this location. The crucifix is not like the Ten Commandments in that it's not an historically recognized symbol of law. It doesn't send a secular message to all the people, regardless of whether they are believers or not believers of the important role the Ten Commandments have played in the development of law."

Scalia: "It's not a secular message. I mean, if you're watering it down to say that the only reason it's OK is it sends nothing but a secular message, I can't agree with you. I think the message it sends is that our institutions come from God. And if you don't think it conveys that message, I just think you're kidding yourself." (hehe, at least he's honest)

Welcome to Jesusland.

As per your comment about Satanism displays, if they're going to allow the promotion of one religion then it should be open season... and yes, after that we should ALL be bashed for allowing this kind of idiocy. Those of us opposed to such things are clearly not doing enough to put a stop to this slide towards theocracy.

Ok, after returning from work and viewing the threads, here are some responses.

First of all, I am glad to see this as a discussion, sans flame.





Good points. You see this for what it is. Some view this thread as a US/Bush bash. It's not and the best response is not to bash Canada because we don't agree with the policy.



You hit the nail right on the head here. All too often, perception is manufactured by news directors. The media is not a substitute for real education from professors and scholars.
Having said that, after speaking with many of my American friends, most would agree that the level of education about other countries other than the US is sadly lacking.



This is a fact. Judanu. Unlike Alby, I am quite certain Korea has no hostilty towards us. Likewise your point on the 9-11 guys and whores is a valid one.



Excellent post Cross.



Also correct. You stipulate to the polarization of your country. America is often it's own worst enemy. When I am in New York or Seattle, I am more worried about muggers than terrorists. The American Liberal/Conservative bash is way more prevalent than any difference of opinion us may or may not Canadians have. In fact I think the US has alot to learn about the 3 party system.

Al Franken, Anne Coulter, Bill O'Reilly et al, do very little but fan the flames of dissention.
Jon Stewart, you gotta love that guy though

What is needed are solutions. I think Canada's refusal to help this time, was a very important step. It speaks volumes because we are a normal country with a reasonable economic status. Our relationship can hardly be defined as strained or indifferent. It's business as usual. That won't change any time soon.

Come on now! LOL The fact that we took over a country that far away and over seas on top of everything doesn't mean we couldn't mount an enormous attack on Canada. The problem with foreign wars is the amount of resources it takes to bring the army to the location and to maintain it.

Here we could just drive our military right up the highways. With a border that large you'd have no change of defending it

One thing Canada doesn't consider is the fact that if the US wasn't directly below it they'd be spending MUCH MUCH more on a military. The fact Canada can hold a very small military since the US would always come to the aid is I'm sure a determining factor of why the military is such a low priority.

I swear , everytime I go to Canada its US sucks this , Canada is better that. But the second I say something positive about my country I'm always hit with "oh you're an arrogant bastard!"

Its ridiculous. If the US sank into the ocean and was no more I'm sure the Canada government would be scrambling to build a decent sized military as well as a larger navy to protect itself from foreign invaders.

Oh and for everyone talking about how the government pays for the medical care. Look at the population of Canada. Now look at the population of the US. Could you imagine our taxes if we had to pay for 300 million citizen's medical needs?!

Going around the Earth isn't always the most efficient route. In fact it is just as efficient to go over the North pole and come back down.

The way you are using the map no country would go over the Canada. Russia has missles that travel over the North pole to hit targets in the US.

And all that ocean between us and the rest of the planet. Mind, if the US wasn't there, the political landscape of the planet would've been utterly different for hundreds of years, now. Canada probably wouldn't even exist.



Actually, I think we'd probably be scrambling to save ourselves from the massive tidal waves and tectonic shocks.



Well... you'd also have 300 million taxpaying citizens. And the government most certainly does not pay for medical care here. We do, the populace, via taxes.