Philip Disappoints On Bounce Scripts

http://www.anonymous1.com/fruitcake/images/wallpapers/wl-time-1024.jpg


ooh! panda is making me enjoy the forums-with-prok SO much more!

certainly attempting reason didn't do it

I got bounced (again) yesterday. Followed the directions I had been given...talk to a linden...got told to talk to the perp. I did. He could have cared less. I pointed out to both (linden and perp) that I got bounced while actually on Linden land. The perp (I hope he minds my using that term, incidently), suggested that if I wanted a warning I should buy him a new system. In other words...its my problem. Just like RL, isn't it.

But, what really interests me about all of this is:
a. Is this just a test to see if we, as a community, can figure a solution to a SL variation on a RL problem?
b. What are these people hiding anyway?

Neal,

Abuse-report, negrate, file a notice in HOTLINE TO LINDENS, lather, rinse, repeat.

It's hard to get lifers like Juro and Aimee to see any reason when it comes to postulates about the time it is going to take for new people or less-technically-inclined people to do things, especially news in the game. They're just never going to admit it, because they're too proud.



Here's a typically stupidly condescending post. It implies that someone who is a programmer is smarter than someone who isn't, but the secret is, programmers are just people who learned to sequence stuff. They are glorified typists. They are just technicians sequencing stuff. In the US Post Office, where I worked one summer, we sequenced stuff too. Lots of people sequence stuff. It's just that these programmers who sequence stuff on new shiny stuff think they are special. If you could learn a foreign language, you could learn to sequence their stuff, too. It's honestly not the big deal they make it out to be.

Here's an example of not seeing the forest for the trees. Because that's often the problem with people who are sequencers, even if they parallel process sequence, because they don't pull back analytically and look at the whole picture. Aimee is babbling impressively about cascading and code breaking in her field's jargon. But you don't have to be Bill Gates to understand that has no relevance to my point.

When I say "remove something from the game is easier than adding it" it obviously can't mean removing code from the GAME as the Lindens coded it -- duh -- because the Lindens, God bless their little hearts, aren't the ones who coded the bounce script and put it in the game. That was some players who did that.

So to eliminate something from the game like a bounce script, player-added, the Lindens just have to *set the tone* and say "that pushes/ejects/moves (whatever you want to call it) avs too far, without warning, so it is a weapon, and we ban it" -- full stop. That will get rid of some of it. Then, they remove physically on a few strategic cases the bounce scripts that, let's say, they got the most complaints about. And...then they make a few arrests. It's not rocket science. It's broken windows policing. The good they'd do with this is enormous. They don't have to spend their lives being garbage men. Good scripters will stop making them and selling them and set the tone, too. Bad scripters will continue selling them to clueless newbs. Older players will censure the clueless newbs and send them over to the good scripters, etc.

But sequences, literalists as they are, can only think of doing EVERYHING in the sequence or NOTHING, to get THROUGH THE WHOLE LINE, or NOT THROUGH THE LINE. But we don't have to. A few symbolic efforts are enough.

Even if we are to conceded that programmers have some kind of holistic take on things if they are right-brained LOL (then they are unlikely to be in IT work), then we'd have to say that their tendence for all-of-nothing or worse-case-scenario-as-the-guideline or whatever their received memes and cultural norms are, is not helpful to do just a simple, ordinary, broken-windows, Squeegee-man kind of community policing.

They'd utterly paralyze our world, put in some ridiculous workaround, instead of just admitting that the problem here is WE NEED ONE LESS SCRIPT. They find that such a profound blow to their scripto-centric world that they just get into a lather.

But it's as if we were saying to a city mayor: we can't have you crack down on Squeegee Men unless you reconstruct every sponge sold in the city in such a way that it disintegrates upon contact with a wet windshield in a car stopped at a traffic light by computing the distance to the green light shed and the degree of wetness in the sponge to reach a central server that will release special chemicals to disintegrate it. Honestly, that's how tekkies think as they disintegrate our world.

Instead, what I'm saying is just make a few arrests on E. 42nd St. and 5th Avenue, have them on the news, and hope that both Squeegee men will stop harassing people on the crosswalks for fear of arrest, and handled-sponge-mop sellers on E. 41st St. will think twice before they sell their short-handled products.

Juro's trying to take the fact of his giving a nod to the customer service aspect of Aimee's idea as a pass. It's not a pass. Because Aimee's idea is preposterous. My God, people, why inflict another stupid hard-to-learn goddamn tekkie piece of bullshit on the players of this game just for them to have some enjoyment out of this game???? huh?

USE THE IMAGE TAGS!!!

oh wow .. with all this .. and other posts .. you sure dont seem to have very much fun in Second Life?

Why Stay?

I was actually giving a nod to both of your ideas, if you read my posts. I think they both have some validity and good suggestions.

'Removing' the scripts from the world would be a CS near-impossibility. The code exists and the functions are used for things other than security systems. So, do you remove that function and ruin other, legitimate, non-griefing scripts as well? No, you don't. There would be plenty of folks who would be angry if thier non-griefing creation ended up being useless as a result.

So, how would the Lindens contain and eliminate all of the bounce security scripts out there? How do would they keep them from being re-created?

I'm not saying 'this is better' or 'that is better'. I'm saying that we need to look at this more without ruling out suggestions before investigation.

As far as Aimees suggestion goes and with respect to the slider idea, they are easy as pie to figure out. It doesn't take some scripterati-tekkie-wikki-uber-geek-programmer to figure it out. A 10-year old could be using it like a pro in a matter of minutes. It's a *slider*, not a NASA launch program.

How bout this?

We've already heard from Eggy was it that it isn't really "pushing" but "ejecting" or some other such hair-split. No matter. It feels like being ejected in a pushing kinda way.

Oh, here's how it's going to sound: "Aimee, where is edit? Or, you say it is on my UI? What is a UI? Oh. YOU mean create/edit on the land? Oh. You don't mean that. Oh you mean THAT edit? But I'm not seeing preferences. Huh? WHy right? Is right counterintuitive? Right feels to me like moving towards what is GOOD and PROPER and that would be LESS pushing. But you are saying it means MORE pushing? Oh. Well I AM confused now."

YOU MEAN I HAVE TO GIVE UP ALL MY ELEVATORS IN ALL MY MALLS TO BE FREE OF GRIEFERS? feh


oK, I'm giving you what customers will say EXACTLY. I know, because this kind of silly stuff...like "what is edit" and "what is a prim" is what many many new people (never the ones you come into contact with I guess) do when they approach this game.

Why can't you just admit the need for removing/banning bounce scripts from the game?

I don't think anyone is denying the need for something to be done, but how its done is going to be tricky.

Those scripts use functions that are also used by non-griefing type applications - so we need to figure out a good way to remove the ban/bounce property scripts w/o losing the 'good' uses of the function.

OK Pumpkin. The user you are describing would not be able to play SL to start with.

If I arrange a piece of music, I am "just [...] sequencing stuff." If I write a program, I am creating a complex logical structure in my brain - one capable of interacting with its environment, and acting on itself - and transposing it into a computer. I have done both of these tasks, and they are very different.

My problem with teleport scripts (Vote for prop 229) is that I have been booted while at 3000 meters in my helicopter. Why was I at 3000 meters? To be alone. And besides at 3000 meters you cannot see the ground or anything built below 1000 meters. Its also less laggy up there. But I was flying over some land and suddenly my computer crashes back to windows and then I have to re-boot the computer because it will not open any of my programs. When I finally get back in SL, I get the automated message that I had crossed into restricted land and had been teleported back home.

I have yet to find my helicopter.

Ban teleport scripts. Thats all there is to it. I mean, what was I going to see at 3000 meters?

Now now, why is everyone ganging up on Prok? These people SHOULD be banned forever, instead of coming up with another solution or just dealing with it. Also, sometimes people with blue hair piss me off, I think having blue hair should also be a banable offense. I mean, c'mon, blue?

At 3000 meters, objects de-rez after 24 hours. You can't permanently keep sentinals up there.

Admitting it implies that it's true in the first place.

I think you can see where I'm going with that logic.

"Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."

Have a problem with little-old-ladies in big black oldsmobles?

paranoia

<psychiatry> A psychotic disorder marked by persistent delusions of persecution or delusional jealousy and behaviour like that of the paranoid personality, such as suspiciousness, mistrust and combativeness.

It differs from paranoid schizophrenia, in which hallucinations or formal thought disorder are present, in that the delusions are logically consistent and that there are no other psychotic features.

Yes, this is a very good quote for this situation.

All of you are willing to give up the freedom of all of us to fly around or drive vehicles normally even on Linden roads (I've often had the experience of a bounce script hitting me even while hovering over a Linden road -- I don't know how that can be but it must be that I'm actually a bit over the line -- but here another player has raised it too).

All of you are willing to have all kinds of people suffer, be bounced home, be pushed around and inconvenienced, sometimes not even able to proceed to their own property or to proceed across a sim (I get this all the time).

In order for that one person to have "security" with his malicious bounce script, the rest of us had to give up our freedom,yes.

Those who go on conceding that one person has the right to inconvenience all the others to get what he wants have introduced and endorsed a concept that will cause the destruction of society.

So uh....removing people's freedom to script objects that use a push because YOU want them removed is different HOW?

You know, if you wanted to be an ass...

And I'm not advocating this, just thinking out loud...

Find the neigbors of this guy, and pay for them to have security scripts on their land, BUT ONLY TO DETECT HIM...

It's either legal or not. Period. If legal, then this little bit of nastyness is legal too. If not, then everyone gets slapped and all scripts removed...


I mean, let's be honest: People have complained about this, and the attitude is that they are only an annoyance we have to deal with.


Share the joy?

Love the quote Emma...

ZOMFG!!11!!! Remove the bounce script! Kill it from SL! Who cares if businesses that may or may not make security systems who depend on it's existence go down the tubes! Oh! The irony!

How can you expect people to figure out a slider? What? Are you insane? (btw, I really don't believe this - I just can't stop running on and on. You know, like an old window fan screeching endlessly, yet never seems to stop working). Arguments are the sourceforge of my mana.


Imagine a happy little cabin right over... there. Maybe a happy little stream right over... here.

Breathe. Unless you're underwater - but then Bob has a cure for that too!

What if someone agreed with prok? I think it would look something like this:

<imagination>

Well said Prok. The last thing we need in SL are two more sliders. I hardly know how to turn shine on, and being prodded to learn what two more sliders would do is just more than i can take. I've had enough with all of this learning just to play a game and be part of an online community.

I just don't see how this entire community can be against an idea as simple as yours. It's as if they think the lindens don't have a "search for and kill all of these scripts" button. We both know they do, it is right on their keyboards. It doesn't take any work for lindens to do this,and it would hurt NO ONE. The FIC is only trying to make it seem like a bad answer because they are afraid that the people will have their way. The people have to rise over the FIC, the scriperati and show them that just because no one agrees with you and I that isn't a reason to go our way.

You truly are a guiding light in this community, Prok. Without you..well...the two of us just wouldn't have a voice at all. Everyone elses opinions would be floating around unchallenged by your wisdom. It's as if they want to discuss options instead of bow to your infalable dream of what SL should be.

So keep it up Prok, because if you don't then all sorts of ideas and solutions are going to come out of the FIC, what with their creativity and ability to make content. We are definately in danger. SL is sinking to the pits of hell. Save us Prok.

Btw prok, please come out and see my shiny cube soon. It took me all day to make it so, i had to learn alot. So many options. You would think SL would just MAKE it shiny to begin with, but i had to get creative and choose a setting. Everyone wants shiny, and it's all we need. You truly know the shallowness of our concerns in this ever expanding online community.

</imagination>

<sarcasm>
so really folks, now that we've seen how that would look, don't you think we should put down the pitch forks of creativity, stop marching to the windmill of community discussion, put down the torches of reason and stop mobbing after this monster? this obvious victim?
</sarcasm>

Are you in politics? That was GOOD! It takes a lot of work to be that snide, yet polite the whole way.

And, by the way: This was not sarcasm...

UM, geez, I don't think the Lindens have "kill all scripts" buttons on their keyboards, but hey, I could be wrong about that.

There are two concepts of rights, positive and negative. With positive rights, the governments has to add something, let's say, a funded program to increase the participation of women in the work place, or a funded program to clean up toxic waste.
With negative rights, all the government has to do is step out of the way and not coerce, i.e. in allowing freedom of expression. In modern societies, it is often an intertwining of the two that ensures actual freedoms, i.e. freedom of the press isn't much, if women and minorities don't get much access to mainstream media, so then the government might fund programs to do that.

Societies that set up all kinds of positive-rights programs usually face a huge tax or social spending burden that they don't deliver on, and if they achieve this by not performing on the negative rights side of things, they suppress people's initiative.

In asking the Lindens to ban these kind of bounce scripts, I'm not asking them to code, or provide postive funding programs, or to do anything except a negative: asking that they be removed, and when I say "removed" I mean "removed from the lexicon of approved scripts" and "removed from the list of scripts allowed in the game" and "put on the list of banned scripts". That takes one second, and no coding.

The removal of them doesn't have to turn into a positive-funded type of program roaming all over the grid rooting them out like weeds. By announcing that they are banned, however, the Lindens will get some compliance right there by honest script makers and ordinary residents who now have to find alternative means for their "security".

By making a few arrests to enforce the remove/negative side of things, the Lindens set the tone for enforcement. There will remain cases of their making and use that the Lindens can chose to respond to, or not. But meanwhile they will have empowered the society to act so as to remove the riddance of script-bouncers and the havoc they cause in communities. If they never do another thing than the cost-free task of announcing they are banned, and make a few arrests, they will have gone miles forward in making the community a nicer place to be. They don't have to press any kill scripts buttons (which don't exist in any fashion anyway I imagine) and they don't have to spend hours coding ways to thoroughly remove those lines of code all over every server on the grid. They just have to set an example.

What Aimee suggests is like the positive-spending program. A new form of behaviour and understanding has to be introduced, whereas the old pernicious evil gets to stand. Many people will not be able to figure out the sliding, and they will go through at least one nasty experience due to the presence of the original evil of bounce scripts. But Aimee, to prove herself right and preserve the entitlements of the scripterati, will stop at nothing, even the prospect of legions of poor newbs first being blasted and ejected by bounce scripts -- which now have a new shot in the arm to live and flourish because they've been declared unequivocally to be "ok" -- and the burden for avoiding the annoyance of their use shifted to the player.

Her solution is also indicative of the whole FPS culture which encourges living and working space on a server to be viewed as a game where people suit up with armour and shoot each other.

Those injured newbs and oldbies who decided to venture outside their sim or take a drive and get whacked by this are then forced to figure out their UI, move the sliders around and hope they figure out the right direction and the right mix to defeat ALL the scripts, especially now that this industry has been *newly empowered* by the big nod from the Lindens, off-loading the personal freedom issue on to the avatar himself instead of insuring that the encroachments on personal freedom that happen from bounce-scripters are curbed. A really horrid solution for the problem of personal freedom and personal security on both ends.

These people now facing the slider issue have to figure it out, keep figuring it out, adjusting it, and 9/10 times will be calling live help. Just try having the Lindens put up a query on their section about how the community is going to feel in their war against bounce scripts (and the majority oppose their use in the malicious manner in which they are now used). If Lindens suggest that henceforth, instead of getting rid of these victimizing monstrosities, players are going to have to bone up on yet another feature and lose yet another aspect of their freedom to pernicious scripterati, they're going to be furious. Once they figure it out, it might tilt them to open rebellion, I don't know. What I do know that if this company persists in its privileging of scripterati, uber-architects, and content barons over "the masses" and "other groups of creative and hard-working people" etc. they will have no society, just a swank club that never grows beyond a few thousand people in its gated community.

Whatever facility newbs and olbs aquire in their slider capacity, a terrible thing will have happened to this society. Instead of curbing abuse and viciousness in bounce-scripters, in the name of "preserving the bastion of scripter creativty" (which evidently this is all about for Aimee and others), everyone has to add a layer of knowledge, activity, and calibration to their SL to overcome the vicousness of another. These are not workable and good solutions. The good solution is to curb that tendency of one person expanding his freedom when it encroaches on the space of another. That is what happens when a script is used on property to bounce an av merely because he flew by.