Linden Sponsoring Ulrika Zugzwang's Government is a disastrous idea

I love these threads.

Presumably you and blaze have already explained to God that this would be a bad idea...

Here ya are --straight from our FAQ and easy to read:

"The Neualtenburg Projekt has been created to meet Haney Linden's challenge of creating a compelling destination for members of SL which beautifies and preserves the snow sims. It is called a "Projekt" as it goes beyond a typical group or themed SL build. The goal is to create an experimental community of artistic, ambitious, talented individuals who want to explore the limits of architecture, culture, and politics in Second Life."

Now that doesn't sound so bad does it?

No absolutely not, in fact - sounds exciting.

But that is a far cry from "Government comes to SL". Maybe it's not your charter, but it's what Ulrika chose to highlight. Obviously the top priority on his mind.

dunno what you mean but it's only an example. don't read too much into it.

Ulrika is a her.

Read the FAQ. You'll see that the Neualtenburg Projekt is an interactive combination of three speheres of interest, Architecture, Poltics and Culture.

Ulrika's primary concern probably is the Politics..tho' she also has deep interest in Culture and Architecture.

My primary interests are the Architecture and Culture, tho' I find the Politics fascinating.

In the Neualtenburg Projekt we are trying to shape a multi-faceted community that houses as many different outlooks as there are citizens. The citizens main bond here will (hopefully) be the love of their city and the company of other's who feel the same.

My own personal involvement in the governmental aspects of the neualtenburg is to make sure the artists and coders get a fair shake in determining their wages and place within the city. To that end, I've not only set up an Artist's Guild, with classes to be held in the crafts, and a program to ensure fair treatment of merchants --but also I have started a Workers Party within the current party system to make sure artists and coders have a place at the table in the running of Neualtenburg.

This is very exciting to me in particular as I'm keenly interested in developing a new model for intergrating the artist into an SL society, thru an apprenticeship program of mutual learning and development of collaborative artist efforts.




edited for spelling

That's very interesting blaze. I hadn't noticed any drama about this particular project/idea/issue until it was brought up in this thread, which was started by you.

I'm kinda shocked you'd be against Linden support blaze?!

I think they should have much much more involvement, to the point where people can go to a website to download a "The Neualtenburg Projekt" client and register using the SL website only have it all branded with the "The Neualtenburg Projekt" look&feel right down to the applications icon. Have it automatically add them to the right group and after they leave newbie island they appear in the city.

It'd be so cool to be able to download a different game "powered by SL". Cman Blaze!

By drama I mean people who get personal and start attacking each other's character, SL and RL. This is not that. This is nothing compared to what would happen if the lindenlab did make such a mistake as sponsoring a group of select 'elite' individuals.

..

But, for the sake of argument, let's say this is all drama .. what purpose do you serve by bumping the thread so my so called 'drama' is at the top of the thread list?

There are a lot less 'dramatic' posts you or whoever else thinks this is just 'drama' could be posting you. Why mine? Are you masochistic?

People .. do us all a favor. If you're not interested, don't post. Then these so called 'dramatic' threads will vanish from view.

People post the most annoying things on these forums. The last thing you'll see me going on them to tell them to stop posting. It's so... counterproductive.

Well, that's a good idea Jack .. I would be all in favor of that if it was seperated from the mainland.

Did someone tell you to quit posting blaze?

I was pointing out the irony.. no apparent drama until you started it (or appeared to).

I'm still curious: what, in your opinion, makes these people 'elite'? And I'm still unclear as to why you think it's a bad idea. Can you elaborate for us?

Why seperated? A game powered by SL would be a lot more attractive if you could 'leave' and visit other worlds. Maybe we couldn't get in, but they could visit?

I think it’s great if LL is allowing the use of reserved land for large scaled projects... When Ulrika was originally posted looking for a scripter/s for her "projekt” there was a statement that concerned me though.



This leads me to believe that land is not the only perk for people who are working on Linden sponsored projects… & I can see where someone would consider them “elite” when they have the power & the voice to determine what LSL functions LL adds.

Sorry Juro .. didn't mean to jump on you I am just get a little defensive as I've been attacked rather repetitively for by people mistaking strong opinions and contrarian viewpoints about abstract ideas for drama. Kinda sad but true.

Nikki - yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Ulrika should say "If you have an idea about your own government and how you could get SL to help you work on it, talk to Lindens" then it would be OK. But Ulrika was talking about her government.

This is just how it starts. I should start posting MUD logs and what not so people could see how closely this paralells so much that has come before.

I find the Lindens favouring this project in any way to be a really sinister and worrying development.

As I have said many times in the past, I came from a self-governing world which turned into a totalitarian nightmare.

The prospect of that happening here makes me very unhappy. We are already seeing plans to give people titles and authority, which wouldn't matter so much if the scheme didn't have 'official' sanction, as it now appears to have. Now it appears the Lindens have indicated their willingness to change the scripting language.

I think people ought to forget all their concerns about the economy, the commercialism and anything else. This is the thing that we all should be worrying about.

Ahhh the conspiracy thickens. Exactly where does anyone say the Lindens are doing anything to the scripting language to facilitate this project. The notion is laughable at best.

At this point I would like to interject and just say:

Dun Dun DUN!

Ok. y'all can tell me to fuck off now, but I was going anyway. toodles!

I heard that Condoleeza has rejected Bush's offer and will be coming to the 'Project' to act as dictator of SL!

Talen,

<<Exactly where does anyone say the Lindens are doing anything to the scripting language to facilitate this project.>>

In one of her many threads, Ulrika is asking for people to suggest changes to the Linden language which would facilitate the smooth running of the government. This, to me, implies that the Lindens have intimated that such an idea would be acceptable to them.

Sorry I can't refer you to the exact thread - I have searched a bit, but there is only so much of this stuff I can bear to read.

Really?

I'm always hearing people put out the call for suggestions for improvements without any prompting from the Lindens one way or another, and usually with little hope for getting them implemented. I wouldn't read anything into it at all, personally.

To all those who think this is an unimportant matter, and an excuse for drama.

I have lived in a site where there was collaboration between the owner of the site and a central government which incorporated policymaking and security. What happened was that those members of the place who craved power took it, and made life a misery for many other people.

When I left the site (and I emerged unscathed from all this - I just saw what had happened to other people) - criticism of the government had become a permanent banning offense, as had getting on the wrong side of the wrong people. The vestigial democratic institutions were being systematically stripped of their power. Many of the residents with a spark of social conscience and a sense of fair play had been permanently banned. A mayor was elected by popular vote and within six months had been permanently banned from the site and accused of fraud into the bargain. Anybody who criticised the site on their own web sites found that their ISPs were threatened with legal action.

There was a security service who harrassed people. They set up a web site on which residents were named and abused.

The owner of the site connived with the council in banning people, even when such bans were provably unfair and unjustified. Because of the support of the owner, there was no way for decent residents to oust the government.

This is just an outline of what happened. It is something that I believe is a real danger for sl if self-government was ever adopted. I have no problem with a scheme like Ulrika's if it is kept within its own bounds. I think it is wrong-headed and will not work, but that is not my business.

But if such a thing ever threatens to spread beyond the confines of its own boundaries, or if the Lindens become involved in *any* way in supporting such a project, I think we are all in danger. I think the Lindens are great people, and they have handled sl so far in a wonderful and tolerant way. But none of us is immune to corruption. I'm sure the owner of the site I mentioned thought of himself as a moral and upstanding citizen.

I do hope that if this experiment proceeds, it will do so on a hands-off basis. I realise that the Lindens are interested in the concept of self-government. But even by supplying land on which this can take place they have made a political decision.

I find that ominous.

You know Selador and I have been on opposite ends of a rope in Tug a war at times but this time I tend to agree with Sel in reference to Gov't in SL.

I'm all for Ulrika keeping her little fantasy dream of government and political Bullshit within the confines of her and her followers realm.

However, the moment it spills over into the main stream of SL I won't be the first to say this nor the last you will see a lot of well known and older members of Sl step away from here looking for an alternate Universe.

I have been a strong proponent against Government in SL and as long as I don't have to bow down or kiss any Player induced goverment officials butt I will stay and continue to enjoy SL, drama free, for the most part.

Please understand I am not attacking Ulrika in anyway right now however, the moment that "Constitution" becomes something all of SL has to decide on I think you will see some frightening things happen.

So with that said I would like for either Phillip or Robin to speak up in reference to this experiment because a lot of people are getting it misconstrued and are blowing things out of porportion.

To my knowledge at this point this is what I know.

The lindens are assisting Ulrika by offering them land in which to set up their community as an experiment in governmental system. To my knowledge any body seeking to create their own autonomous government has the same opportunity.

Ulrika's Government is to be kept within the confines of that demographic sim and its followers are subject to it's rules while engaging in activities in "THAT" sim alone.


The questions I would like answered is if Ulrika's "Experiment" seems to work will this be forced on the rest of SL and if so what is the time frame for the conclusion of the experiment. Also when what would the time frame for a decision to implement it into main stream SL if this is LL backing and goals.

In one stance I am all for Ulrika getting her little govermental power trip play ground.

On the other though it frightens me that if Linden Lab is supporting this to have it eventually flood into SL main stream we are in danger of loosing what some of us love so dearly.

Anyway thats simply my .02$

Sincerely, Shadow Weaver

What you should really worry about is what to do when Neualtenburg joins the U.N.

Kendra,

An amazingly dismissive response to people's very real concerns.

Kendra if that happens then Revalations(King James version book of the bible) has come to life and its time to start studying up for my finals in RL let alone worrying about SL.

What can I tell you that hasn't been addressed ad nauseum in this thread already?
There is, as has been stated numerous times, no intention of creating an SL wide government that all must be part of.

The broadest reaching this experiment goes is that IF it's successful perhaps it might inspire other communities to set up governments of their own choosing.

I was being dismissive on purpose, as I believe your jumping to conclusions based on zero facts has a potential damaging effect on something that, quite frankly. I've worked my little heiny off on.

If you don't wish to be a part of an experimental cyber-government in a small snowy Sim fine. Go Gezundt! Otherwise, I'd appreciate you not attempting to piss in our pool.