Linden Sponsoring Ulrika Zugzwang's Government is a disastrous idea

I was extremely suprised to hear Talen Morgan say in reference to Ulrika's government project:



If this is true (I am very suprised if it is), then I believe that because it is sponsored it will be doomed to failure.

I am all in favor of government(s), but for a government to succeed or truly be of any value it must be developed from the bottom up. To do that properly the Linden's must keep out.

Sponsored would be decidedly the wrong word. The Lindens have given us nothing but the opportunity to lease (at our expense) some otherwise unavailable land for a brief time. I expect that what Talen means by sponsor is that the Lindens have given us a unique opportunity and are so far interested in the progress.

I'm sure Ulrika can speak to this far more eloquently than I.

I don't see why it would be an issue, even if it was a LL-sponsored gov't. I've always liked the idea of LL 'assisting' various projects IW, and a fledgling governing body could be an interesting experiment. I do think that LL-sponsored projects should meet some sort of criteria, so they aren't wasting time on unorganized, doomed projects.

In my opinion, Ulrika is one of the few people that have been very, very good in laying out the details for the Zugzwang project. I was duly impressed with the clear thoughts and documentation she posted to her site in preparation for the project.

As a side note, blaze, why are you against LL's involvment? You were all for thier involvment in a 'pre-notification' scheme for the top land owners prior to a deployment of new sims. Why are you against thier involvment here?

Actually, for a government to work it needs to have citizens and the power to compell them.

Neither of which the government will have.

If they can work out a way for people to volunteer themselves as citizens to be ruled, well, the government might be useful. But really, a government is useful in RL because it provides us things. Order, policing, defence etc etc. I'm not sure what the SL govt. will provide.

People will only volunteer to be ruled if the government is going to provide them something in return. And if and when they get a polity I'm not sure what rules and regulations they can pass (let alone enforce) that anyone will find useful.

Getting people to sign up to a charter of behaviour and at the same time agreeing to dispute resolution, and professing this on their info and trade stands, might work. But beyond that, I'm sceptical (but remain curious).

PC

Thats exactly what I meant Kendra..I should have chosen better words. Land tier is being paid for by members so we are taking all the resposibility.

I believe you are way off base any way Blaze whereas the LIndens sponsor such things as Neverland we could fall under that sponsorship as well as we are endeavoring to create content within the game. If its the content you don't like you can choose not to be associated with it.

It's a drama nightmare. People get a sense of entitlement about their so-called status in the game and shove it down everyone's throats.

"Linden's are giving us land to run this government, if they thought we were a bad idea .. they wouldn't do that" .. will be how it starts.

Neverland is completely different. It's not about people telling other people what to do and never will be.

The fact is, LindenLabs has publically stated that they need a dispute resolution system (kinda like cops and judges) that they don't have to pay for.

I think that is a truly great idea. I think player run governments are absolutely the right solution. But participation in those governments should be done on a completely voluntary basis and any involvement by Linden's in any particular scheme is dangerously drifting away from the philosophy of a completely voluntary basis.

It is, and I hate to hijack the thread, a lot like George Bush going in and giving government to the Iraqiis whether they like it or not. Yes, they *need* democracy but not this way.

The Linden's can fix this though. They need to find a good group of anarchists and make sure they're getting exactly the same about of sponsorship.

No, it usually starts with some know it all making snap judgements about things he hasn't a clue about.

you really just like to see your words typed out don't ya. This is an experiment funded by members and there will be no status in game and no shoving of anything down anyones throat....you're creating the drama and to be honest you aren't very good at it.

this government is completely free for anyone to join and participate in...you can even run for office if ya want. As to Neverland being different....not. It has a different effect but its content and so is what we are doing...providing content.

I have played in over 18 different virtual words and MUDS and MUSHes. I have seen so called player run governments sponsored by the people who run the systems.

They have all, without exception, devolved into nightmarish soap operas.

Also for you to be concluding I don't know what I'm talking about here is also unwise as you're the original person to mislead us down this path. So, perhaps we could leave off the personal attacks.

Please to tell me how I misled you?

Have you read all the original threads about SL government? Have you gone to Ulrika's web site and read the project plan?

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I was basing my concerns completey on your words. If you were in error, than I have no concern.

Blaze, you are a drama nightmare. Seriously look at all the post you have made.. a huge huge chunk of those are just drama inciting post.

Technically it is a Linden sponsored project as land was set aside for it by the lindens and we have a time frame they have given us to show what we can do. Otherwise this project is completely sponsored by land tier doners and participants who have given their time and hard work.

Edit for spelling

Not an error. The word sponsor, like many words in the english language has more than one meaning. Talen's meaning of the word sponsor and your's differ.

I'm more curious as to what you are so afraid of.

Well, Talen, I have no problem with what you are doing. Unfortunately, I think you seemed to develop that mistaken impression. I am against sponsorship, pure and simple. I can only hope that Kendra is right and you are wrong.


Hey billy buddy, how about you go post more about how great you are. I just love those threads!!!!

Why? Everyone already knows how great i am. Sheesh! I do not know if the issue you are having is related to RL problems and you feel as if you need to extend the drama here but it annoys me.

Kendra and I are both right. Again...whereas we the people involved are shouldering the burden of costs this is still a linden sposored project ...they allocated the land ( which we pay for with tier donations) and they have given us a time frame within which we are to work....really not hard to comprehend.

Did I mention I still use Talen's wonderful dumpster as a swimming pool? It rawks.

My most useless creation and yet my favorite

That's cos ya never added water! Needed a woman's touch

i think the issue people are getting at isn't sponsorship it's endorsement. if Linden said here's some land you can use, that's cool. they do that alot seems like. if Linden came out and said this government is a good thing and we're giving you resources to make it happen, that's bad.

it's like if God came down a week before the election and said he supports Ralph Nader. who you going to vote for then? we don't need any mandate of heaven for an sl government. we'd just get sl holy wars.

doesn't sound like that's the case but i think that's what people thought at first.

I believe The Lindens primary interest was the development of some very pretty real estate up in Anzere, though they are intrigued with the development of it becoming a self governing city. Ulrika --correct me if I'm wrong here. As provisional head of the Artist's Guild my head is way to wrapped up with making pretty things and making sure my fellow artists are fat and happy.

You know, I hear this over and over again in these threads, and I just don't get it.

Please explain. How can I go about shoving something down your throat? Because some day I might want to.

Oh. Maybe you have a custom animation that I haven't heard about...

Truthfully, they could be sponsored and I wouldn't really care *that* much.

What really concerns me is that they are going around saying that they are.

That's how the drama has always started in every single virtual world I have seen or heard about devolve into constant personal attacks and bickering.

And, btw everyone, Billy Madison is actually my ALT account. I am using him strategically to bump my threads.