Sould LL just ban the "Impeach Bush" guy?

Thank God there is no ACLU here

True...... but this is not real life.

It's just a game, where many of us come to escape from the drudgery of everyday life, and live out some kind of fantasy existance. I happen to be stuck in the 1970's in game, there are furries, blue aliens, robots, cyberpunks, all sorts here that are perfectly acceptable (both within the ToS and reasonable standards), and if you don't like a certain thing it's not difficult to avoid encountering it. I have no time for casinos, for example..... so I just don't visit any.

However, it doesn't take anyone flying anywhere long to come across a Bush sign, reminding them of an event or thing in real life that they'd rather not. Now, if he'd put all his land together, make a memorial for those who have been killed in Iraq, which you clicked for a notecard giving all the reasons as to why Bush should be impeached, all the constitutional bits he'd broken, all the laws he'd broken, everything that the guy has to support his somewhat extreme point of view, that would be great because you'd have to actually choose to get the information rather than having it smack you in the face - almost literally - everywhere you go.

Same freedom of expression, same viewpoint, just less offensive. He'd probably get more support as well.

It's like "Inexpensive clothing for the mature fuller figure" - it's the same wording as "Cheap dresses for fat old women" - but one is a lot more likely to get you sales.

I have seen a number of memorials in game - one recently for those killed in the Sago mining accident - which have been quite tasteful and in their own ways moving due to the respect obviously shown for the circumstances. Quite why "Mr Impeach Bush" can't do this I don't know.

Or is it simply just about the money, and nothing to do with a point of view whatsoever?

Lewis

As I've posted elsewhere -

The classic example is that freedom of speech does not allow you to shout "fire" in a crowded theatre.

Equally, it does not allow you to go to the cinema, stand up when the movie starts, get out your loud-hailer and start yelling "IMPEACH BUSH" into it throughout the entire show, and tell the other patrons you'll stop if they pay you $2000. The defence that you have paid for your seat, and were never asked to sign a contract saying that all you'd do in your seat was watch the movie, would be unlikely to get much response.

Except this it not a freedom of speech issue. SL is not a movie theatre. And this guy has told no one he will take down the signs for money.

this is about the right to build what you want on land you own. If he came on to your land and put an impeach bush sign, or if he did it in the welcome area, he would be banned. You have bought virtual real estate, and thus your expectations should be the same as one who owns real estate: you must look at your neighboors because you have no right to control what is on thier land.

It is a land use issue. Not a free speech issue.

If that's the case, why is the land up for sale for extortionate prices? It can't be so that people don't buy, because you don't have to set it for sale... so that only leaves that it's an annoyance to *make* you buy the land.

Simple use.... price capping.

Up to 128 sq m... capped at L$10/sq m

129 - 512 sq m ... capped at L$20/sq m

513 - 1024 ... capped at L$30/sq m

1025 - 4096 ... capped at L$40/sq m

Any more than that ... capped at L$100/sq m

Seems a reasonable solution to me, and screws up the extortion issue at least to keep the money you have to pay reasonable.

Lewis

Yes it is. You don't own your land in SL any more than you own your seat in the movie theatre.

Because he wants it to show up in Find as land for sale without having people actually buy it and remove his sign? Dunno if I believe that but it's a plausible explanation. We can all assume all day long but since none of us are psychic, claiming unequivocally that his intent is to extort is nothing more than a biased guess. Stating opinions as facts is never very useful, or honest.

What if his alt was a land baron? Would that change opinions?

It would still be simply an opinion unless you have psychic powers.

I appreciate the dodgeball. But lets say we knew, if we heard it from the person themselves. Would that change opinions?

Can you prove they were telling the truth? Do you have access to the billing records?

If he just wanted it for coverage why wouldn't he buy a Classified as well?

I'm sure I don't know, not being psychic.

So if a person tells me their alt is a land baron, and they are both in a real estate group together I am to request even more proof? I bow down to the dodgeball king, just ignore my question, which was mostly hypothetical to begin with as Im not out to name names.

How do I know that you're telling the truth? Not that any of it matters anyway. The person is acting within their rights. Eventually you all just have to learn to deal with that. The sooner the better.

Just because Im discussing it doesnt mean Im not dealing with it. You'll find my discussions on this topic quite rational thank you.

I meant the figurative "you," by which I meant everyone. This discussion has gone way beyond any usefulness. Nothing new is being said. People are just rehashing the same stuff over and over and over again... none of which changes the reality of the situation.

The analogy is very apt. At it's core, SL is a shared space we all pay the owners to inhabit. Sounds like a movie theatre to me.

Heh. I've seen a lot people who claim that RL rules don't apply in SL are the same ones to trot out the wikipedia and other "legal" definitions of extortion. (not saying that's you, Jake, just a passing observation). If we can define pixels on a screen as "land", we can call this problem exactly what it is - extortion and griefing.

I knew what you meant.

Don't tell me how to use SL, kthx.

Not true at all. You do have an interest in land in SL. In a movie theatre you pay to watch the movie. In SL you pay to use the land. That is called tier. The land analogy is not of my making, it is of Linden Lab make, and it is the basis upon which they sell memberships. You never expect or intend to take a property interest in a movie theatre, you do in purchasing virtual property in LL. You may not own the land in fee simple, but you defintely have an ownership interest in land.

its not like amovie theatre at all, see my other post. We all take an ownership interest in the virtual property we purchase, create, or are given. Yes it is also subject to the fact that LL owns the servers. But Ownership of virtual land is a core principal of second life. LL understasnds this, and has made its decision on this matter clear.

And no defining pixels on a screan as land is not the gateway to calling this extortion. Extortion is conduct requireing proof of specific intention. That intent can be inferred here but not established.

Defining pixels on a screnn as "land" is simply a matter of reallocation of rights in property. Property is not a thing, property is a legal concept of rights and interests in a thing. I certainly hold rights and interests in virtual land i purchase in SL. So does the Impeach Bush guy. So do you. What LL is doing is holding his rights equal to everyone elses rights to use property.

I am sure that if there was even the slightest breah of the tos, or any point at which these signs went off land owned by lazarus divine, LL would act. As it stand he has merely ben convicted in the court of public opinion. The forums are in agreement that his signs are bad. Well I don't want you and your wolfpack her ein the forums tunring on my land next for some other vague reason (like is am arguing against you on this matter) and have LL heed your hue and cry in the forums and take down my builds. I want proof I did something wrong.

Lazrus is entitled to the same thing, and well, it hasn't been forthcoming.

This person is not acting within his rights. This person has broken the TOS.

coco

Ummm.... actually not. Interest, of course. Rights? Absolutely not. TOS clauses 4.3 and 6.2 state unequivocally that we are merely paying guests on Mr. Linden's property. Just like the movie theatre. Just as Mr. Movie Theatre Owner can escort unruly patrons to the door, so can Mr. Linden.... If he so chooses.

Not entirely. Witness about LL's *huge* campaign touting basic membership.

Not entirely. Witness about LL's *huge* campaign touting basic membership.