Sould LL just ban the "Impeach Bush" guy?

As nice of a thing as freedom of speech is, it only applies to public forums. Second Life, as a forum and MMO, does not qualify as a public forum, but rather as a private service. This is why they can ask that you agree to terms of service that restrict you from swearing or saying hateful things before playing, and why they can kick you out if you disobey these terms of service. So, unfortunately, the "Freedom of speech" argument does not apply here any more than Linden Labs says it applies, for good or ill.

Personally, I think Linden should do SOMEthing about this guy. When a sizeable chunk of your playerbase is being annoyed, harassed, or driven off by one person, then it is very much time to take action.

Linden Only Content On Land Extortion Signs!
--- Example ------
Impeach There.com!

The only way to get rid of these is to flood LL with requests to remove them. Use the Report Abuse option from the Help menu on these if they are overhanging your property!

Since this guy has been banned, why are the signs still there?

How do you know he was banned, and no suspended? Also, items stay on the land until a Linden clears them off and makes it first land, or auctions it.

Well I'm pretty sure if he was just suspended we would still be able to find his profile, doesn't make sense to find his info totally missing from the system for a suspension.

It's interesting. When you click on his lands, in the description, it says stuff like, "My mom thinks so" or "My mom made me do it" or even "Because I can".

coco

(I haven't gone through the messages yet tho I am now and may edit this post once I reach it)

One thing I noticed in another thread was that those impeach Bush grief-boxes could be found against the TOS, if they violated 'community standards'.

That seems a fairly open term to me... kind of a catch-all for anything not otherwise spelled out.

I wonder how the management would deal with them, if a significant majority of the inhabitants of their particular municipality, for lack of a better term, would get together and vote in an ordinance establishing "No billboards allowed that do not have a direct relation to a business or other organization established within the SL environment."

Another poster in the same thread made the comment, the gist of which was, if he had placed ground-level ads or kiosks that included useful information, such as directions to a meeting place for political discussion, or offered landmarks, or other information, that it wouldn't have been such an issue. The very fact that he was tossing them all over the place in such an intrusive manner, which served no apparent purpose other than revenue from people sick of seeing them doesn't go along with that theme.

As many other people said. We use SL as an escape from RL. Our place to get away from it all. I'm all for political debate and discussion within SL just like I would from time to time with my friends in RL. Bringing our outside problems and issues, within SL, which is supposed to be a place for us to relax and enjoy ourselves, seems out of character with what SL was supposed to be to begin with.

We can't hardly go anywhere without being assaulted with special interests bombarding us with their sound bites and slogans which serve no purpose but to hope to program us through repitition. Can't we have this place free from that assault?

This isn't a freedom of speech issue. The owner of those grief-boxes have gone way beyond what is acceptable behavior for freedom of speech. Freedom of speech only excuses so much, and he ran out of excuses a long time ago.

Now he's just affecting way too many people's enjoyment of SL. How much more do we have to put up with?

If enough people get together, and vote in their communities, to establish non-SL-related billboards like that to be against their community's standards, according to the TOS, he has to remove them. Do we have the freedom within SL to do that as a community?

-- Smoovious

The following excert is copied from:

http://secondlife.blogs.com/nwn/2005/12/impeachable_off.html


....."says Daniel Linden. "Some neighbors thought we were acting in a reactionary manner," he explains, "when in fact the only reason we removed them is they overhung parcel boundaries. Content is something that Linden Lab is not concerned with unless it crosses the line into 'broadly offensive'. The only time we'd remove a sign for content would be under that circumstance." (As spelled out in Linden Lab's Community Standards, that rubric includes publicly viewable profanity and nudity, for instance.) "There's no free speech issue as far as I'm concerned," he says.

As for their status as an "eyesore", Daniel Linden goes on, "It's not for us to decide the relative merit of construction in Second Life. We'd also remove the signs if they were script-intensive or a targeted attempt to harass another Resident." (Being a public figure, he adds, it would not become harassment if President Bush ever decided to get a Second Life account.) As for Residents accusations of "extortion", he continues, "If someone can demonstrate a concerted attempt to extort then we would appropriate action."

*coughs* "'broadly offensive'...... ok.... by what definition is LL using that we are not? I know I'm pretty offended, anyone else? Poll currently shows about %75 of SL is offended enough to want him banned.

*coughs again* "If someone can demonstrate a concerted attempt to extort then we would appropriate action.".... I think 150.000L for a 48 meter plot of land, land which is also marked no outside scripts, no create, no FLY even, and is also the only unsafe land in a sim.... ya.... Again, what definition is Mr Linden using?

LINDEN LABS, STEP UP TO YOUR RESPONSIBILTY AS GAME MASTERS. THIS GUY IS A GRIEFER WHO IS UPSETTING PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD OF SL AND THUMBING HIS NOSE AT ALL OF US INCLUDING YOU! HE IS IN DIRECT VIOLATION OF THE BIG 6 UNDER HARRASSMENT AND INTOLERANCE AND DEFINES GREIFING.

Oh and, by the way, if you think this stuff will disappear once Bush leaves office, or US troops leave Iraq..... Wake up to what he's really doing.

He's had the guts to try an extreme tactic for making money, and found LL will let him, so.... Wait till you see what he does with that land after Bush is out of office.

I think I'll put a particle gen on that spews a huge cloud of obnoxious smoke, park myself in random places simply stay there till someone pays me 50,000L Then I'll go somewhere else for a while to annoy them. Is that greifing? Is that Harassment? Whats the difference in doing that, and what this guy is doing? Oh yes, there IS one diff.... I can only be one place at one time, he is Griefing all over SL, 24/7.

GET A CLUE LL!

If they impeach bush doesn't that mean we get Cheney?

Oh man this dude needs to rethink his strategy!

The other side is that "freedom of speech" is only part of the US consitution, it does not apply to the rest of the world.

Lewis

That's hardly a good argument considering (a) the SL grid physically rests on US soil, and (b) most civilized Western nations hold freedom of expression to be important, even if they do not go to the extremes of the USA.

I'd like to repeat something I mentioned in another thread...

The US Bill of Rights / Freedom of Speech thing only applies to what government agencies can do to a citizen. However that does not apply between a business such as LL/SL and either its employees or its customers.

You are contracted (via the EULA/TOS/CS) with a right to only *use* the software, and there are always provisions to yank that right at the host's discretion. That's why companies like Blizzard can mass-ban (i.e back when they really started the D2 crackdowns) with barely a worry.

Things like the BBB and Consumer Reports are usually privately run counters to extreme activity, which tend to work quite well.

Admittedly LL has given us, the users of SL, quite a bit of leeway; But that can change as needed to save their US$ bottom line and/or their reputation. In the end, the only true freedom will be once sims are hostable outside of the master colo.

This guy is obviously a dick of the highest magnitude, no one can argue that this is about anything but making money via extortion. Should LL ban him? Well that depends on your views on other matters also. For those of us who have been complaining/lobbying for LL to apply the TOS and CS equally to everyone, and for LL to show no favouritism, the answer must be no. Residents that have lobbied for there to be no grey areas when discipline is enforced really can not say a thing here. He hasn't broken TOS, even if he is an arsehole.

For those of us that beieve that it's ok and normal for LL to show favouritism, that there are times when not everyone necessarily needs to be treated by the letter of the TOS/CS, this is an excellent example of a reason why.

Now LL could change the TOS with this guy in mind. Now if they did that, everyone would cheer! But what if they changed the TOS in a way that affected your business? I can understand why LL are treading carefully here.

So for anyone wanting him to be banned (I think torture is more appropriate really), you will make your own position weak on lobbying in the future against this kind of action when the result of said action is not in your favour. C'est tres interessant!

ofcourse.. devalues many peoples property and experiences.

I look forward to the natural next step:

ban all "for sale" signs.

If other threads are closed for TOS violations or for Forum Rule Violations, then why is this thread allowed to continue?

I voted no actually.

He paid for the land and it's really his right to do whatever he wants to it. Anshe buys all that land and puts those ugly signs everywhere, clubs buy land and lag the sim like crazy, casinos buy land and have moneyballs shouting winners across the sim and make noise polution that everyone in the sim has to suffer.

If we ban that guy for putting up some stupid sign should we ban all them for ruining other people's SL experience too?

This issue came up before too, with Club Elite. When Club Elite was trying to get it's first land, Mature land was rare. You only had about 9 mature sims and they were all generally very bought up. BigJohn managed to get a small plot of land in Stanford I think it was, but not nearly enough to build yourself a club in. So he preceded to make the biggest most intrusive and ugliest bright yellow tower he could make on that land, and then ran a Tupac song (before land streaming media, songs ran with wavs meaning that anyone in a certain range could hear them) over and over all day long every day. People begged for him to stop and asked LL to make him stop but they couldn't do anything since it was his land and it was his right to do what he wants with it. Eventually people started abandoning the sim, and he'd buy up their land at cheap prices. Was a pretty brilliant albeit scummy tactic.

This isn't so much about freedom of speech as it's that the guy paid for the land and he can do whatever he wants with it.

This Is Nothing But Land Extortion No Linden Law Against That. I Served In The Military And I Feel Like This Is A Personal Attack On My Rights. And I Am Not Gonna Let These Anti-bush Remarks Die There Are Too Many People Being Affected By Them Now. So To The Linden's, Just Don't Worry About It I'll Take Care Of It Myself..........

This kind of thing scares me. When we start pointing fingers at one person we all enter very dangerous ground. I personaly am a bush supporter, no I don't care for the signs. I do however believe in freedoms that allow me to express myself. Even when it is against the majority. When we give LL the power to ban a person because of their views. It is my opinion then we all as individuals become at risk in the future. Today it is bush signs, I don't know what will piss who off tomorrow. Perhaps some stupid rule that says because I am a rl woman I have to always play a rl woman in sl. What ever the next rule will be; one thing I am most certain of is that there will be a next time if we continue to ask LL to babysit us and police our actions.

I have seen many ugly builds I could of done without but I did not ask that the user be banned. Nor did I ask that their build be removed.

Now show pictures of dead babies and I will be there right with you protesting. Somethings are just words others are hurtful. The bush guy is voicing an opinion and I think he's wrong but I wont take away his right to speak he is not being hurtful. That is the basic difference to me.

I'm not going to argue my opinion, because today even though it might be against the majority vote, I had the right to say it.

Mar

PS and since I was away from SL and just skim the forums these days I did not get a chance to vote. My vote would be NO.

I would also like to add that because of what is going on in Iraq my rl husbands company sent him over to Uzbekistan they have siince moved him into Afghanistan. Believe me I thought long and hard about giving any opinion on this matter.

Thanks for the idea, now im gonna start buying up 16m plots of land and putting crap on it that'll piss everybody else off.

Please take the time and read my ps Daltrey this was not an easy post for me.

Thanks;

Mar

Hey arn't you a land baron Mr.?

Good thing you brought that story up. If things like that can happen in SL, something isn't good... If the people using scummy tactics can get away, something's not right. Either the ToS or Lindens.

I doubt the same (similar) extortion tactics would work in RL as they would do in SL. Though I admit, sadly, some do.

Where is King Philip when the people need him?!!?!?!?

I hope you did not mean my post mentioning Casinos and Clubs, etc. If you did you misread what I meant. I meant if you start banning content, where do you stop? I might hypothetically hate casino's and whorehouses, but then I dont have to go.... Why not let the content evolve with the interface and see what happens? I am so glad Linden Labs has not allowed "corporate culture" to rule its basic decisions as to allowable content. Enough freedom is allowed IMHO. that this interface has become fascinating ( where IS the spellcheck ?) without too many limitations.... Just hope there doesnt evolve an ACLU type fantasy organization that would fight for NAZI's, etc- to be able to place signs....