Advances in Equal Opportunity: Where We Are Now
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:02
From: Forseti Svarog well we already have a LOT of good talent in SL that isn't known I think they are not known because 1. they don't want to be known or simply don't care or 2. they don't want to take the steps it takes to become known (many many paths to that end) or 3. they want to be known and try, but suck at meeting people and marketing I really doubt that there are many in camp #3, because sucking at it brings you a certain amount of notoriety too  The institutional changes you've mentioned aren't really responsible for whether talent is discovered or not in SL. You know, people can philosophize on this all they want. But the truth is, with a Developer's Directory, people have the opportunity to be considered, whereas before, they didn't. With the PR Suggestion box, people have the opportunity to be considered, whereas before they didn't. With the contests, people have an opportunity to be considered, where there isn't a contest, they don't. These structures have been put in place precisely SO that people can be considered, and so that LL will find it easier to consider all that is available in SL. That is a good thing. I don't care how you cut it. coco |
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DogSpot Boxer
vortex thruster
Join date: 23 Aug 2005
Posts: 671
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11-13-2005 14:03
From: Enabran Templar You left out the part where Catherine E-Mailed you to let you know that Linden Lab had picked you to be successful. .. still waiting for MY email.... 
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:05
From: Cristiano Midnight Ok I will bite here. I joined SL as a normal unknown member in January of 2003, and in November of 2003 I started a web site. I didn't have a business at that time, other than a small tshirt shop with naughty tshirts lol. Anyway, I started promoting my site here in the forums and in world, and through word of mouth, and I started to get traffic to my site. I worked and expanded it, added a knowledge base, some blogs, and continually updated it. The site became well known as an alternative to the main forums.
When animations came out, I was not instantly sucessful - it took a long time to build up my business, but now it is one of the most well known animation stores. Snapzilla started out with nothing, and now gets over 100,000 visitors a month. Where along the way did I use some secret method to be noticed? I didn't. I worked extremely hard to do so - with a great amount of time and personal expense.
As Neehai Zapata so eloquently states it in his signature, if you aren't having sex, it is your own fault. If you are so talented, and yet no one notices, then get off your proverbial ass and get yourself noticed. I have no sympathy for anyone who whines about obscurity. It is within your control, most people just don't want to put in the effort, yet they want the rewards. Cristiano, they DO notice. WHEN they offer a set-up that allows them to notice you. That is the point! coco |
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Forseti Svarog
ESC
Join date: 2 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,730
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11-13-2005 14:07
From: Cocoanut Koala You know, people can philosophize on this all they want.
But the truth is, with a Developer's Directory, people have the opportunity to be considered, whereas before, they didn't.
With the PR Suggestion box, people have the opportunity to be considered, whereas before they didn't.
With the contests, people have an opportunity to be considered, where there isn't a contest, they don't.
These structures have been put in place precisely SO that people can be considered, and so that LL will find it easier to consider all that is available in SL.
That is a good thing. I don't care how you cut it.
coco oh, I wasn't saying that any of the three things you raise are bad. I think they are GOOD. I'm simply saying that they aren't really responsible for whether talent is discovered in SL. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:08
From: Forseti Svarog oh, I wasn't saying that any of the three things you raise are bad. I think they are GOOD.
I'm simply saying that they aren't really responsible for whether talent is discovered in SL. Well, of course, talent would be discovered in SL without any structure at all. coco |
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Jillian Callahan
Rotary-winged Neko Girl
Join date: 24 Jun 2004
Posts: 3,766
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11-13-2005 14:10
From: Cocoanut Koala Well, of course, talent would be discovered in SL without any structure at all.
coco Then... why do we need the structure? |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-13-2005 14:12
From: Cocoanut Koala Cristiano, they DO notice. WHEN they offer a set-up that allows them to notice you.
That is the point!
coco Um, what? That made no sense.
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-13-2005 14:14
From: Cristiano Midnight Um, what? That made no sense. Does any of this? |
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Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
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11-13-2005 14:16
OK so let me get this straight, Coco.
Linden Lab chose Bedazzle to be recognized by Wells Fargo?
That's like saying that my city's mayor chose me to have cookies baked by my neighbor for.
Bedazzle has made sim-scale intricate builds, and Wells Fargo noticed.
Perhaps someone from Wells Fargo did see a Bedazzle build and asked LL who made it.
I suppose to skirt 'favoritism' LL should have said, "Pay no attention to that build, may I interest you in this guy who's been here for 8 hours who is naked except for underpants and a motorcycle attached to his head?"
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:18
From: Michi Lumin OK so let me get this straight, Coco.
Linden Lab chose Bedazzle to be recognized by Wells Fargo?
That's like saying that my city's mayor chose me to have cookies baked by my neighbor for.
Bedazzle has made sim-scale intricate builds, and Wells Fargo noticed.
Perhaps someone from Wells Fargo did see a Bedazzle build and asked LL who made it.
I suppose to skirt 'favoritism' LL should have said, "Pay no attention to that build, may I interest you in this guy who's been here for 8 hours who is naked except for underpants and a motorcycle attached to his head?" Maybe Wells Fargo did just that, Michi! In which case this wouldn't be an example of the sort of problem we now no longer have, cause we now have the Developer's Directory. However, I recall at the time that the Lindens said, well, this wouldn't be a problem in the future, because they were making the Developer's Directory. coco |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-13-2005 14:19
From: Cocoanut Koala Maybe Wells Fargo did just that, Michi! In which case this wouldn't be an example of the sort of problem we now no longer have, cause we now have the Developer's Directory. However, I recall at the time that the Lindens said, well, this wouldn't be a problem in the future, because they were making the Developer's Directory.
coco Again, why is it a problem if they saw Bedazzle's work and were impressed by it, enough to want to work with them? Why do you continually present this as a "problem".
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Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
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11-13-2005 14:19
From: Cocoanut Koala Maybe Wells Fargo did just that, Michi! In which case this wouldn't be an example of the sort of problem we now no longer have, cause we now have the Developer's Directory. However, I recall at the time that the Lindens said, well, this wouldn't be a problem in the future, because they were making the Developer's Directory.
coco ... huh? "Maybe you're right! Oranges have lobsters, granite! Elroy. Big Ben?" in other words.... What the hell does that have to do with the price of tea at Safeway? |
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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11-13-2005 14:20
From: Cristiano Midnight Again, why is it a problem if they saw Bedazzle's work and were impressed by it, enough to want to work with them? Why do you continually present this as a "problem". One word. "Attention." |
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Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
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11-13-2005 14:21
From: Enabran Templar One word.
"Attention." You think she'll hit 4k today? Edit: Seriously Coco. There are people who go out there, do big things, and get noticed. Nobody is stopping anyone from doing this. Case in point: Luskwood, we've been -the- big name in the avatar market for .. what, 2 years now? If what you said held true, we 1) got there by being 'handed' opportunity and 2) the current 'system' would have kept competitors or newbies out. Whinge Languish, who has been here much less time than you have, (3 months maybe?) is *ALREADY* as well known as, and selling as well as we are, with his avatars. You know why? 1) He's good, and 2) He's good. That's all it takes. Even a newbie can do it. Even a newbie HAS DONE IT. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:24
From: Michi Lumin You think she'll hit 4k today? You shoulda seen my post count on TSO! coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:27
From: Jillian Callahan Then... why do we need the structure? Because (a) it is the structure which gives equal opportunity, and (b) it's better for the company. Let me offer a lousy analogy. Let's say you were going to cast a film. You could just look at the actors you know, and decide which is best. Or, you could hold auditions - even if you already have certain actors in mind as probably best for the part - and see what a lot of people have to offer! You may still pick your original choice, but you will have at least looked over the field. You may even, as a result of looking over the field, get a better idea! Or an idea for more actors. Or find someone just perfect in some way that you hadn't thought of before. That's why the auditions are good for the company. And - we WANT the auditions! coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:29
From: Cristiano Midnight Um, what? That made no sense. Cristiano, you said: "If you are so talented, and yet no one notices, then get off your proverbial ass and get yourself noticed. I have no sympathy for anyone who whines about obscurity. It is within your control, most people just don't want to put in the effort, yet they want the rewards." I am saying, they DO notice you, once they have a structure in place that allows them to see what all is being offered. coco |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:29
From: Enabran Templar Does any of this? Do you? coco |
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Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
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11-13-2005 14:30
From: Cocoanut Koala Do you?
coco Yes, he does. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:31
From: Cristiano Midnight Again, why is it a problem if they saw Bedazzle's work and were impressed by it, enough to want to work with them? Why do you continually present this as a "problem". THAT would not be a problem. The problem comes in only where an outside company says, "Hi, Lindens, we want to build something there," or "We want to interview some of your residents." Then the Lindens say, "Welp, we know so-and-so is good," or, "We know so-and-so would be willing to be interviewed." It is better to have a system where they can collect all the so-and-so's who might be good or willing to be interviewed, beyond those residents they are already aware of. coco |
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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11-13-2005 14:31
From: Cocoanut Koala Cristiano, you said:
"If you are so talented, and yet no one notices, then get off your proverbial ass and get yourself noticed. I have no sympathy for anyone who whines about obscurity. It is within your control, most people just don't want to put in the effort, yet they want the rewards."
I am saying, they DO notice you, once they have a structure in place that allows them to see what all is being offered.
coco Again, what structure was in place for them to notice me, other than just working my ass off and making myself visible?
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Yumi Murakami
DoIt!AttachTheEarOfACat!
Join date: 27 Sep 2005
Posts: 6,860
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11-13-2005 14:32
From: Michi Lumin
Whinge Languish, who has been here much less time than you have, (3 months maybe?) is *ALREADY* as well known as, and selling as well as we are, with his avatars.
You know why?
1) He's good, and
2) He's good.
That's all it takes. Even a newbie can do it. Even a newbie HAS DONE IT.
Examples don't work in this case, because of Fitch's Paradox. This shows that one newbie did it, but you don't know there aren't any number of newbies just as good or better who haven't managed to get known. Indeed, you can't know this, because if you did, they would be known and the category wouldn't apply. Unfortunately, you can't presume that there aren't any either. |
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Cory Edo
is on a 7 second delay
Join date: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,851
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11-13-2005 14:32
From: Cocoanut Koala Problem: You don't suck, but no one knows it because you aren't known.
Answer: Open the opportunity so you can show your stuff, and prove you DO suck, or don't.
coco I was under the impression that the entire SL world was an unlimited opportunity to show you don't suck and to show your stuff.
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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11-13-2005 14:34
From: Michi Lumin You think she'll hit 4k today?
Edit: Seriously Coco. There are people who go out there, do big things, and get noticed. Nobody is stopping anyone from doing this. Case in point:
Luskwood, we've been -the- big name in the avatar market for .. what, 2 years now? If what you said held true, we 1) got there by being 'handed' opportunity and 2) the current 'system' would have kept competitors or newbies out.
Whinge Languish, who has been here much less time than you have, (3 months maybe?) is *ALREADY* as well known as, and selling as well as we are, with his avatars.
You know why?
1) He's good, and
2) He's good.
That's all it takes. Even a newbie can do it. Even a newbie HAS DONE IT. I know that. In fact, 95% of what goes on in the game we don't even talk about here, but there are 95% of the people in the game for whom that is their whole game LIVES. From that perspective, we on this forum are often nothing but a bunch of actors strutting on an empty stage. What I have been talking about is not about "how to get famous," "how to have a successful sim," "how to run the best Tringo spot in the game," or "how to make friends and influence people." I have been talking about - since I joined SL - about how if there are opportunities to be had, opportunities that the Lindens control, and which the Lindens offer, then there should be a system whereby everyone can submit for consideration. With this thread, I am saying we now have that, for the most part, unless I'm overlooking something, and if I am overlooking something, what is it, and how could we improve that? coco |
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Michi Lumin
Sharp and Pointy
Join date: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 1,793
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11-13-2005 14:34
From: Yumi Murakami Examples don't work in this case, because of Fitch's Paradox.
This shows that one newbie did it, but you don't know there aren't any number of newbies just as good or better who haven't managed to get known. Indeed, you can't know this, because if you did, they would be known and the category wouldn't apply.
Unfortunately, you can't presume that there aren't any either. I think that's highly unlikely. Good content goes for a premium here, mostly because there's so much detritus. I've seen -some- newbies end up not getting noticed simply because of technicalities, like their "vendor was in a dark corner." That's not what Coco is talking about though. She's talking about a structural fault that oppresses the newbie. I don't think that's true. I think it may be tough to get good mall space, perhaps, but that still isn't an overall social/regulatory structure problem. |