Pimps!

You cant really put a word like vanilla in the same category as the racial derogatory terms (which I wont repeat). I dont feel I'm being insulted by someone calling me what I am be it Gorean, dominant, kinky or anything else. Its a lifestyle I choose to live and am very proud of it. Perhaps if you feel insulted by being called vanilla you arent very proud of being that way?

When it comes to lifestyle choices "to each their own". So when I refer to you as vanilla is merely means your basic man/ woman relationship. Not derogatory, not insulting, its what you choose to do.

When I refer to you as "happy little sprites" yes that is derogatory. Though normally if I'm in the vacinity of some couple calling each other little pet names and whatnot. I will quietly leave so as not to subject myself to it. I wont ask them to stop, I wont try and push my lifestyle on them, I normally wont even comment. Its not my place to judge what they do

Actually I think this is a perfectly reasonable statement.

I absolutely hate the term "wetback". People use it all the time though. Sometimes it's only a joke, sometimes it's in context between two friends... but often it is hateful and ugly too. So when someone uses that term, I am the kind of person more likely to just ignore it and move on, but I don't have to. I am well within my rights to say "I know you don't mean it hatefully, but the term carries connotations I'm not ok with so I don't want to hear it."

Let's be honest. 99% of the time when we in the D/s community use the term "vanilla" it isn't with any negative connotations, it's just a simple one word way to say soemone is not into D/s. But being honest we all know there are times when people have used the word to mock or to insult or to call someone dull and ordinary. So it is understandable that a few people who may have experienced that would be insulted by our use of the word. Just as I am equally insulted when someone refers to my preferences as my "kink". There is nothing wrong with the word kink but coming from someone in a certain context it often feels like my self and my ways are being insulted.

So, I don't think it's unreasonable at all for someone to ask me to please use the term "non D/s" instead of "vanilla".

We expect people to be tolerant of us, I really think we have a responsibility to also appear tolerant of them.

*applauds Allana*

That SO hit the nail on the head...

I can see where you are coming from Allana. I however view it a little different. I really dont dont care how anyone feels about my kinks. Stereotype me all they want but the fact of the matter is they have no idea who I am or what im about. Also judging from the responses to this thread they have no clue what my lifestyle is about. I find it hard to be insulted by someone's ignorance. I simply implore them to read a little before making their ignorance known.

I mean everyone hates attorneys (yes i know its an exaggeration) should we quit calling them attorneys because it can be used as a derogatory term.

The other part of it is that the world today is entirely too focused on being politically correct....cant call a potatoe a potatoe because it might insult the potatoes

I know I am a kinky SOB, calling me a kinky SOB will not insult me, its what I am.

Here, for an exercise, let's try another word that's used to categorize:

Gay.

I could use it in a benign way to state a fact, as in, "My friend Bill is gay."

I could use it in a way meant to be insulting, as in, "You're gay!"

I could even use the term itself to imply a negative quality, as in, "That's gay!"

I don't think I even need to point out here that not all usages of the word are the same.

Non-D/s is simply a statement of fact. Vanilla can imply a value judgment. That's the difference.

Allana, I disagree with your 99% statement. For the record, I've been in the D/s community for a long time, and I've heard that word used a lot. In most cases, in my opinion, it does bear a value judgment: "My previous relationship was just vanilla." It's not a drastic thing, it's subtle. But it still implies lesser-than status.


Also for the record, I didn't have a problem with "happy little sprites." Tinkerbell rulez.

"My previous relationship was just vanilla." Doesnt really even imply lesser-than status it merely says that their previous relationship was kink-free. Now most of us kinky SOB's want the kink, so in that case it would imply that the previous relationship was not what they wanted.

Again, disagree. The word "just" in this case does connote that it was less valuable because it was not D/s. Don't think you and I will ever agree on this, so I'm moving on.

That right there is my point exactly

It wasnt the word vanilla that gives the comment value. You cant say that Mustang gives a "lesser-than" value because I say "My last car was just a Mustang"

I've used the term "vanilla" for non-D/s folks many,many times, in talking to both the D/s community and non-D/s community, and this thread is the first time I've ever heard a word about it being possibly derogatory. I mean, what's wrong with vanilla? I like it, as well as chocolate and strawberry.

I certainly don't make any judgement calls on folks, their private lives and their kinks. I'm far more "vanilla" than D/s these days myself. Hell, I tend to call the D/s community a bunch of perverts, in a joking manner, and most of them smile and say "Damn right!".

I think some folks tend to look for reasons to be offended, and this would fit into that catagory. Vanilla doesn't imply less-than or not-as-good or anything of the sort. It just means, at least to most of the D/s community I've dealt with, someone that doesn't practice D/s and thus is usually, by social standards, viewed as more pure, wholesome and a bit less "colorful" in their kinkdom.

But, as stated earlier in the thread, if someone was offended by it, I would probably try to use another term, as the D/s community has experienced plenty of judgement against them, and we wouldn't want to be guilty of dishing out the same treatment.

Uh huh. Why would I care what you say, you're just a Gorean?


eta: Statement was said to illustrate my point.

Again its not the "Gorean" that gives the comment value. Its the "just" that gives it a lesser-than flavor. Even then its more of a personal opinion about Goreans than a derogatory remark.

I'm just saying that the term itself is not a derogatory term like the racial ones mentioned earlier. In the right context anything can be made to be insulting.

Indeed. Let me tell you about a RL experience I had...

There's a long street here in Houston infamous for its whorehouses. After recovering enough from cancer that I could start working and renting again, I got a cheap room in a hotel on this street in order to get out of the shelter. I was surrounded by working girls and pimps and gang people (and at least one corrupt cop). Most of these people were not overtly violent and I would even say that some of them were "good people" in spite of their problems. I found that they would go out of their way to watch out for my safety when I had to walk home in the evening after getting off the bus. No one ever approached me to join them.

BUT

There was also one terrifying night I'll never forget when I heard a woman yelling and arguing in the courtyard of the hotel, and crying. About three hours later, I heard a terrible screaming coming from one of the rental units, from this same woman, who obviously was being confronted by a weapon: "no don't!" etc., followed by horrible silence.

I never saw her again.

It is safe to assume nothing official was ever recorded about her death or maiming, and safe to assume that like many of the working girls, she had no official ID or trackable identity to begin with.

So not only is this sort of thing happening in Eastern Europe, it's happening right here in the U.S., every day, every time a homeless woman with no papers is taken over by someone willing to maim or kill, and a gang structure happy to take a cut off the proceeds.

I'd like to say that I ran out of the place the next day, but even a room in a bad neighborhood is a better situation than the shelter I had been in, and I stayed there for a few months after that. I still saw the occasional violence between a pimp and a woman, though not as bad as this. And like I say, I also met women and their pimps who did not seem violent at all.

The bond between ho and pimp is on the same continuum as domestic violence in general; what makes it slavery, when it is, is the lack of official identity and the illegality. This creates a situation where the victim can't appeal to the authorities for safety (as I still could, putting me in a totally different class of people even while I lived in the same place!)

My suggestion is to completely decriminalize both prostitution and most drugs, effectively putting crooked cops and gangsters out of business and allowing ALL women recourse to ask for help when they need it to escape violence. I realize there is too much money involved for this to happen anytime soon, but I can hope that someday in a better world it will be.

To compare any of this to the middle class role playing that is D/s and/or Gor in RL or SL is one hundred percent ridiculous.

I absolutely agree with this statement.

But may I ask you a question about the rest of your story? When you heard the screaming, did you call the police?


In the building I lived in when I was 18 and 19 a woman was murdered by her husband in the middle of the night because the three sets of neighbors around her covered their ears and ignored her screams (which by accounts lasted nearly an hour) instead of trying to help. I worked nights at the time and I would have been the fourth neighbor around to hear had I been home. I came home to a nice quiet seeming apartment building, everything silent as if nothing was wrong and was woken up six hours later by swarms of police when the woman's friend or sister or something came over and found her. No neighbors had ever called or checked on her.

Whether it is RL or SL or some other platform, to those who say that D/s relationships are abusive/violent/sick.... I say there are many more non D/s relationships that are all of the above and more. In my relationship everything that happens is consensual and determined by me, I get to draw the lines between that which I'm willing to allow and that which I'm not. If any relationship is abusive or sick, it will have nothing to do with any kink or sexual style, it will be because the individuals are messed up people.

You and Lorelei are both wrong.

These so called "offensive" words are not inherently offensive. But when you put a word like "just" in front then it becomes offensive.

Oh, and what Alex said was totally gay.

Quite right. I can and do frequently leave when I encounter that. No point in making an ugly scene...its undignified.



I've ran into it in my shops a few times. Honestly, visible displays of subservience make my skin crawl unless I am 100% sure its just an RP.



You and your partner sound like nice people. And people such as you are the kind of people I no problem with. You're not 'in your face' about it. I don't see the point of rubbing ones preferences [gay, straight, D/s, whatever] in others faces when a bit of decorum on all sides works wonders for getting along. In public, I wouldn't say a word to you...I'd think you looked damn silly with the leash and kneeling and I WOULD leave the area within a minute or so, but I would not say anything. It would be rude.



I never go to those kinda places, just not comfortable with it (to each his own, but I am just too egalitarian for that). I usually just mute the person and go about my business if its in a public area that I have to be in (say meeting someone) or port out if being tehre is optional...I've no wish to offend them and its not my scene.

Outside of you here on the forums, I have NEVER met a rational D/s couple. The last time I asked not to be called Sir (and I said, 'Hey. And its OK, no need to call me sir'), the 'slave' kept doing it...I muted her and went about my business finishing a build for a friend. A few minutes later, I got orbited by the 'master', I am assuming he took offense to me not wanting to play along.

But they were gorean, so I kinda expected it. Not really seen that many non-gor D/s folks out there, from the thread they usually tone it down, same way the vast majority of straights, gays, etc. tone it down. Perhaps the 'bad experiences' are mostly from the gorean subset? Least that is how it seems in retrospect...with one exception so far, the posters on this topic have seen very conscious of others feelings. Thank you for your viewpoint!

One of the first people I met in SL was a former Gorean Master and he was a lot of fun to serve for the short time I did and remains someone I consider a pal to this day (though I haven't talked to him in awhile and I should before he forgets me). We have several former Gorean Masters hanging out in our club now and they really are nice guys. There is a very pleasant former Gorean Master who has recently sent a couple of former kajira to our club to help them find a comfortable place to hang out and they've been fun to get to know.

Wait hold on.... there's a word in there that seems to be a common denominator. Can you find it? *giggling*

Ok thats as close as I'll come to making jabs at Goreans

Seriously though, I think that in every subgroup there are always a few people who take things so far to the extreme that they create an ugly reputation every one else ends up having to fight against. I believe the very qualities that lead to someone desiring to take on a Dominant role can when taken to another level also lead to general assholeness. Unfortunately it's the assholes who tend to stand out.

One of the things that makes Gor and D/s communities attractive to those of a healthy mindset is the ability to spend time around like minded people, to have a support system and to be able to be open about their preferences without judgement. So a lot of those people have a tendency to stay within the walls of that community where they feel comfortable. One of the things that happens is when someone's behavior is extreme and ugly the community will push that person out. That ugly person then has nowhere else to go but out among the rest of society where their ugliness is even more blatantly obvious. Therefore, with the "normal" folks staying within the walls of their community and the assholes running around amongst the rest of the non D/s community, the perception among the rest of you becomes... all D/s people must be assholes.

Anyway, thats my take.

EDIT: And forgive me if that didn't make a whole lot of sense, I just woke up from a little cat nap and my brain is still a bit fuzzy... off to make coffee.

I think the problem I have with much of this, is the mindset that many have that judges people because they are not what they expect, want, or wish to see. Like many have said, you have your good, your bad and your ug-leh within any group or community.

I am one portion of a D/s couple. I am also one of those 'former' Goreans. A combination of choice and circumstance lead to the 'former' part of that statement. Another story, another universe, and most decidely another time. My boyfriend and I both play in SL. We have yet to find our niche at this point. If it were my choice, we would live in a Gorean Sim. He isn't so comfortable with this. So at present we don't. We mostly wander around exploring, and spending lots of $L

I am quite new to SL. I come from some of the more traditional MMORPG's in which my fantasy's were created for me. This is my first experience where I am told, it's my responsibility to create for myself. I kinda like this but find it amusing that some are so intolerant of people having their own idea of what is fantasy, and in the same breath bash newcomers who don't understand that they are the ones responsible for creating what it is they want... So it IS my fantasy, or is it not?

I have been exploring in many of the areas (Sims?) lately and one of my chosen venues to explore have been the Gorean communities. Partly because I miss it at times. Partly because its the first place I've ever seen it graphically represented. It lends depth to my own fantasy about it.

I know many would like to think that the people of Gor are perverts, have rampant orgies going non stop, and are walking around kicking and beating their poor, defenseless girls. So far I've missed the orgies. So far I haven't seen any perverts though that guy with the really boney knees in Port Cos MIGHT have been one. Ohhh! I did see some violence in one the other evening. It involved a multi-slave pile-up at the Teleport zone. There was no kicking and screaming, nor any pulling of hair. There was much giggling, and good hearted comments of 'sister, your sitting on me'. No one there chastised them. In fact they had me giggling til they noticed I was a FW (Free Woman). Even then there were lots of smiles, and giggles. I hid my giggles behind my veil, almost.

I've wandered in and out of different SIM's. I've been accosted in several (accosted to me being the "hey baby wanna...<insert your favorite sexual comment here>" I have yet to meet within the Gorean Community anyone who has been disrespectful in any way.. (OMG isn't my super model skin working yet...my sexy walk must be off kilter?? Geesh!) Realistically, maybe its the fact that I respect their lifestyle, and try to treat them as humans who have made a choice in how they wish to behave in SL.

Goreans are not freaks of nature, they are not power hungry men with little ummm, minds and stuff! They are like minded men and women, who have chosen to live their lives in this fantasy land in a way that they can envision. For many of these people, they can never hope to see this come to fruition in a real life setting. I'm glad they have a place to make and call their own, and have taken charge of their own fantasy...

Gabrielle

Hrm, I think I am starting to see a pattern emerging here. I kinda wondered about that too. I wish the furry fandom (to which I am a marginal part) self-policed like that. Unfortunately, it is mired in the 'everything is cool, freak the mundanes' mindset, and few have the balls to push out the extreme and ugly...if you try, you're likely the one to be pushed out and they rally around the exteme and ugly elements. I keep hoping the fandom will grow up, but last con I went to kinda dashed those hopes.

So I wear the AV and go my own way now. And I have to admit, I have met some really interesting folks. The conversation with you has been well-worth the time.

BTW, you just woke up from a catnap, I woke up a while ago from a nap covered in cats (using catlogic, they decided he's warm, he isn't moving around in the chair...great place to sleep!)

I wish I could come up with a better answer for you than almost no answer.

If there had been someone I knew to be an honest cop in that situation, I surely would have called him. He would have had to be quite careful not to let anyone know who had called him, though.

I surely value and appreciate that now I live in a standard apartment complex where I can call in security any time I need to do so, or the police, and I don't have to fear for my own life when I do.

But what I get from all this is that the honoring of your human rights is only as certain as the effectiveness and honesty of the law enforcement where you live. And if, on the ground, the real power is being projected by criminals and not by police, you can't have any of your middle-class assumptions about your own rights, or anyone else's.

On a lighter subject:

I would think that anyone who has seen consensual D/s in progress, versus actual abuse in progress, would be able to tell the difference. Quickly.

Many people in SL are spoiled, entitled and sheltered to an almost obscene degree, and they expect everyone else to be there to entertain them. I don't think they've quite figured out that their fellow avatars are being manipulated by actual people rather than a game AI. We see this sense of entitlement here in the forums as well.

I would suggest to these people that they act less as if they were in a "game" played for self entertainment (self stimulation?) and more as if they were in a chat room occupied by other humans.

You think so?

Vanilla ice-cream is the basic flavour of ice-cream. Vanilla means, plain, unadorned, basic. Not quite the weird associations you have with the word.

It's a good job most of us don't have those associations, or vanilla ice-cream would not exist.

Some people enjoy that sort of social dynamic. What's wrong with it, assuming both partners are consenting?

Just because you find thit weird doesn't mean it's wrong. That said, like everything else, most of the men who call themselves "masters" are twits.

No... not really, but I can see how if you can't read you would believe that.

Read the quote again:



I don't see this as being a "Troubled" form of roleplay imho. Granted it is NOT for me, and I would be troubled if I did it (as it would cut against my own personality too strongly). Methinks your so used to defending yourself that your eyes are bugging out anyone who says they are not a D/s chips in.

I keep hoping against hope that all of the pimps are really just tons of alts owned by Rudy Ray Moore and not what I suspect they are; white kids who love the pimp mythos as put forth by modern rap music.

And you think diving into the same irrational namecalling will help yours? Good job on validating every single whiney bitches in this forums belief that your a dominearing jerk with an ego complex. PROVING THEM RIGHT WILL SHOW THEM WHO'S BOSS!!!

/me rolls his eyes