Gay Themed Sim!

All I did was respond to your inquiry, I didn't keep bringing it up on my own accord.
I mentioned it once. You heard it more than that.
And when I said it, it wasn't discriminatory.
Peace.
Crow

Let us be clear about a couple of things.
First, you pointed out one person I can ask about you in world. Well go ask the 160 some odd people who rated me positively if I am not a good person.
Second, I do not cruise around looking for fights. I am happy just to build and have events and play with my friends. I do not however back away from an issue like this. Crow I do not dislike you nor am I out to debate with you. I simply saw someone making very narrow-minded comments without getting the facts. I do not even know Jonathan nor have we had an issue until now.
Sir you don’t know me you don’t know what I stand for or who I am.
The clear point of the matter is that everyone who seems to have an issue with anything Gay in SL goes directly to sex. It is so not about sex.
Now Crow if I got you wrong (gee) I’m sorry. However, I did not take that quote out of text and it was the whole post.
I am not a separatist I am not down on the Straight folk. I just watch out for the family, and stand up for it when I can.

Thai,

I have watched you for 2 or 3 months now making assumptions, jumping down peoples throats if they don't support your extreme views and being insulting to us "rightwingers" who really could care less if your gay or if you want a gay club.

You're the one with issues with your sexuality, not me.

I stayed quiet about your prejudice for a long time, until the wedding post.

Remember the one where some people suggested that perhaps people that got married in SL could have some kind of recognizable mark.

Let me see if I can recall what you said, you ranted about why same sex marriages couldn't occur and said something derogatory about us rightwingers. The facts were though that Same sex marriages had been included in the thread and the reason most people had used the terms man and wife was because they were straight and that is their experience. Noone said same sex marriages couldn't occur, that was your issue, and your baggage.

For the entire time I have been in SL you have been dragging your RL issues into SL.

GREAT YOUR GAY, I DON'T REALLY CARE!!! ENOUGH ABOUT IT ALREADY PLEASE.

Be gay, get married, have fun, thats your life and your business, I won't make fun of you about it, i won't discriminate against you about it, I won't even point and laugh at you. Its not an issue to me. Just don't continually being your issues and baggage from RL into SL, as all that does is start fights which you are brilliant at.

JV

Great, Thai! Now that You've realized you've jumped to conclusions, we can end this conversation. I'm glad you stand up for you're family. I think most people would do the same, so it's good to see that quality in you. ( enter foresaid sarcasm excuse here again ).
Crow

Sir my reply to the wedding post was a joke hince LOL. I dont care who get's married in there. Once again I have never said word one to you. I am not an extremist in fact the only time I truly got heated up in the forms was over the confederate flag being flown over Jessie. I don’t go around in world carrying a rainbow flag. Each and every party I have had at the club has been open to everyone and a lot of people come. Please until I have said or done something to you, could you please stay out of it? And by the way I did not start this trhead it was not my idea, I just responded.

Whoa! it was I, in fact, who first expressed the concern to Baltus that a gay theme sim might wind up being overly inclusive and self-ghettoized. I really don't feel the question of any type of discrimination is a valid one, since there really isn't any.
There is also the question of 'where does it stop?' Do we start having sims for Jews and African Americans, too? Or Vegetarians? Well, Sia's place does seem to be the PETA hangout, LOL!
The idea of a sim is, to me, basically good in itself, from the standpoint of community, but we need to see it as a place to go ---not a place to hide out--- and lets make sure it's more San Francisco and Fire Island and Savannah and Key West and West Hollywood... and not a little Chelsea/South Beach.There are enough hells in RL already.

You can't say it hasn't been tried, usually with no success, I understand! LOL

...I just really kinda wanted a place to go to where I could feel a little less out of place with being openly gay. I do get questions about the fact that I am very OPEN about my sexuality in SL and I feel very displaced sometimes in some zones. I know I can own my own land, but if I'm surrounded by something that's - I'm not saying UNfriendly - but doesn't hold any interest to mine - it can be a little... well, akward - for me @ least.

Well said Mis. A little peace and unserstanding please (this is aimed at no one in particular and everyone).

I think a Gay Themed Sim could be an interesting and educational sim.

I say go for it if you can

Wow! There seems to be a lot of cross discussion on this matter. Having worked at some length with the topic of "gay community" in real life, I think I may have a clue as to what the conflict here is:

(1) In practice, an ideally defined community can seem to exclude people who fail to meet the perceived definition. For example, although a "gay community"* may be ideally defined as inclusive of all sexual identities, in practice it may feel exclusive despite the best of efforts.

(2) The term "gay" is itself ambiguous. Two significant components of the term's denotation are: (a) sexual and (b) historical. There is some overlap here, but for simplicity's sake, let's look at them individually.

(2.a) There can certainly be claimed a sexual culture. Some of it maintains its stereotypes rather than dispersing them. For example, the 'male' role and 'female' role in a male some homosexual relationships conserves the typically heterosexual model of gender identity. Yet some elements of sexual culture are unique to advances in "gay culture". For example, gender-bending, which is at least tangental to gay culture, brings to our attention the maleability of gender identity.

(2.b) There is an historical element too - and one that has admirably been pursued. There are milemarkers to freedom, there are casualties, and there are phantoms that still threaten.

This leads me to a few conclusions:

(1) Special care should be taken to make people of all sexual identities feel welcome. It seems to me any culture based on one sexual identity is /ridiculous/, like a "straight culture" or a "hamster-loving culture", and I don't think that's what's intended here. The message of sexual liberation is one of unity under dignity, not one of seperation. It should be made clear that the community is open to all people who believe in sexual freedom regardless of the choices they make WITH that freedom, and that message needs to continue past the charter.

(2) Attention should not only be paid to the sexual component of "gay culture", but to the historical element as well. A community defined only by sexual practice risks devolving into a Rocky Horror Picture Show - it does not transcend or grow, but merely stagnates and rots. Although nothing is wrong with sexual expression, deeper roots need to be emphasized as well. However, appreciation for this element need not be a gay-only affair. For the movement's sake, it needs to be a universal concern!

This brings me to some problems that might arise with your vision. Now, neither of these is necessarily fatal, but they do deserve some attention in advance:

(1) For the largest part, SL is /already/ free of the restrictions that are placed on identity in every-day life. Gender-bending goes on every day! In the past few days I've met elves, aliens, and hippos. It might be hard to get any special effect by bringing together a community that believes in liberation of sexual identity when the sentiment is more than shared elsewhere.

(2) An historical element is hard to emphasize when you're in a world that's so seperate from the world in which that history originated! Remember that we are in virtual space now. While you can pay homage to the warriors of the cause, keep in mind that you've crossed a bridge that may make it difficult at times. The community would feel some seperation, I'm sure, and would need to develop its own history. But what history can such a culture develop when its fight is one against oppression, and there is almost no oppression in its world?

It seems that the line between RL and SL must be scratched out a little in order for this community to thrive. It must be able to serve as a 'home base' of acceptance while the fight goes on in RL. (It'd be nice if this asset were available to frightened teenagers, but I know plenty of young people over age 18 who need such a world just as much.)

I suggest Alan Turing as the 'patron saint' of such a movement. For those who don't know his history, he was a pioneer in artificial intelligence, who after answering the call of his country to break the German code in WWII (winning the war), was forced into brutal 'treatment' for his homosexuality (including drugs and surgery), a treatment which eventually killed him.

I'd like to help out with such a community if someone wants to help get it off the ground. Please let me know if you could use my help.

* Scare quotes used around some terms simply because they are hard to define, not to draw doubt on their merit.

Word count = 788

What if I proposed a sim for straight guys? Or people named Phil? Or women with red hair? Or civil engineers named Quentin that own cats and have three children?

These would all seem like pretty arbitrary limitations. So why should "a themed sim for gays/lesbians", an arbitrary limitation based on members' sexuality, be any better?

Kohne,
I am in awe of your intelligence and well spoken diatribe.
If the sim does get proposed and launched, I think you should get to be in charge.
Great explanation.
Crow

Kohne,

Bravo.

Rick Crossing

Kansas (6 months/$1,000)
Missouri (1 year/$1,000)
Oklahoma (10 years)
Texas ($500)

Alabama (1 year/$2,000)
Florida (60 days/$500)
Idaho (5 years to life)
Louisiana (5 years/$2,000)
Mississippi (10 years)
North Carolina (10 years/discretionary fine)
Puerto Rico (10 years)
South Carolina (5 years/$500)
Utah (6 months/$1,000)
Virginia (1-5 years)

Massachusetts (20 years) (3)
Michigan (15 years) (4)
Missouri (same-sex only) (1 year/$1,000) (5)

A few off the cuff remarks and quips that are not intended to further discussion or help in any way:

1) Xav, what are the punishments in various states for first degree murder? Because people get shot a lot in SL.

2) Schwartz, sure, why not. That's kinda the whole point of the themed areas ain't it? If you can find enough people with a common interest, interested in following a theme, you can do it.

3) Party people in the house, do what ya like. Live and let live.

4) Alan Turing was a lot more than a pioneer in AI. He and VonNewman are the two people who could most be said to have invented the modern computer, as pointed out, he saved the allies' ass in WWII, advanced the pratical aspects of building computers by light-years and pretty much invented computer science. (Also, small quibble, the "treatments" did not directly kill him, but they and the shame of being outted drove him to suicide).

Xavier,

I have to say, I am NOT getting what you're putting out. I assumed, at first, that you were making some sort of point by listing all the satates and penalties for some sort of homosexual "crime", but I can't figure out which one. The numbers just don't add up to the lists of penalties *I* pull up regarding sodomy, for instance. Is that the "crime" you were referencing?

I would just suggest that you be a BIT more verbose in the future. I certainly can't appreciate your clearly hard-researched point if I don't hear you MAKE the point.

On the off chance that you were suggesting that we take some message from the fact that several states outlaw certain acts between people in private, I'll say that the message I get is that there are some states that are slower than others at getting their heads out of their...uh...hats.

I'll keep that list handy for reference during my next job search or vacation

Was I suppose to get some other message?

A large portion of this game is community. Without the community aspect you may as well just bust out the development suite of your choice along with the 3D modeling program of your choice.

Communities of any kind are a great way to advance that aspect of the game. Creating a group or area where people have a common interest is all that community is. If there is a group of people who love cats and want to be around other people who love cats then that is great. If there are people who love the color purple, or love spelling color, colour, or love twizzlers candy and they want to be around people with a similar love then that too is great.

I have some experience with themed communities and let me say this. It is not easy. Themed communities are hard to get going, hard to keep going. Leading one is a lot of work. I got lucky and found some people I trust enough to run large sections for me, and that I have a format flexible enough to accomodate the many desires there are.

No matter what the theme is there will be people who want to be a part of it, who probably should be a part of it, but who want to express their participation in the community in a different and unexpected way. The cat community may end up with a lion lover in their midst. The person still loves cats, their place just happens to be a shrine to lions and not siamese. Or maybe one cat lover loves their cats in the home, on the hearth and the window sil. Another likes wild cats in the jungle or desert or mountains. Their builds, their expresion of the theme may be very different.

The larger the community the more diverse the expressions become. Almost any community has many, many ways to express being a part of it. And it is work getting the people in the community to get along with each other and be a community.

Again, SL is a social game and communities are a natural evolution of that. Any group that has a common interest and wants to build together, work together and talk together should do so. It will make SL a better place.

I'm curious how the notion of a heterosexual theme would be received. After all, heterosexuals have contributed to the world and have a rich history. This sim would of course exclude characteristics of the gay community, as that is not part of the theme. You wouldn't put a pagoda in Nexus Prime.

I've been involved in themed sims for quite a while. I actively build in two of them. i would say the following would be a good general criteria for proposing a "theme".

- Geographic distinctiveness. For example, Japan vs. Africa.
- Unique cultural distinctiveness. I just can't see the desire to be happy and enjoy community with like minded people as being unique.
- Defined Timeframe. I.e., Darkwoods vs. Nexus Prime.
- Distinctive architecture. Yamamoto for example.
- Opportunity to roleplay a character, i.e., a cyberpunk, a samurai, a roaming knight errant. Not sure how you'd do this in a gay themed sim.
- Distinctive art and period pieces etc.

I have never seen anybody say, "this picture of a bowl of fruit is from the gay period and represents the distinct characteristics of homosexuality." It's just a picture of a bowl of fruit by an artist that happens to be gay, or not.

I would be against a strict Heterosexual theme as well

It is my belief and I hope my beliefs can at least be respected, that the more we separate ourselves the less we will ever be equal to each other and the more violence we will see.

Unfortunately some people like to jump out and say i'm different.

I'm straight, I don't feel the need to celebrate it, its who I am and I'm satisfied with that.

I don't mean this as insulting to anyone, I just believe that some people do more damage to themselves and there groups through there good intentions.

So NO HETERO THEME PLEASE!

JV

1. Existing Same-Sex Laws (4) and Their Penalties
States with sodomy laws that target only same-sex acts

2. Existing Same-Sex and Opposite-Sex Laws (9 + Puerto Rico) and Their Penalties States with laws prohibiting sodomy between both same-sex and opposite-sex partners

3. Existing Laws -- Status Unclear (3) and Their Penalties

ummm Tcoz did you edit that last post, or did I imagine that it originally said, how about a Hetero theme???? Now my post may make no sense lol


JV

Reposted, yes I edited.

Btw I certainly hope you all understand I would never seriously propose such a theme.

Come to my next event please...it's the "Heterosexuals who know you're gay and don't care" march. We'll have coffee and talk about the weather or something.

Of course, I understood the sarcasm in your post.

Though I felt I should state I would be opposed to either theme as all they do is separate us, not unite us.


JV

I think the purpose - guessing here - was not to exclude anyone, but to create an area where a gay person could feel a "kinship" or affinity with neighbors that re-affirmed his or her own sense of self-worth and hope.

Nothing more ambitious than that. I strongly doubt that they intended to put up anti-straight signs, or to try to lure small children into an "alternative" lifestyle, or simulate the breakage of the state laws Xav keeps inexplicably referring to.

Am I wrong? Was there some "adgenda" beyond simple affinity?




P.S. Xav, what ARE you trying to say????

I dunno, calling being gay a "shared interest" seems like a stretch -- Americana members have the shared interest of American culture, Little Tokyo members have the shared interest of anime and manga, Kazenojin have the shared interest of creating flying machines in-world. What would a gay community (or a straight one!) have in common that would lend itself facilely to a building project, besides something as unimportant SL-wise as sexual orientation? How would that be reflected, besides "maybe a museum or something"?

When I said "arbitrary", I mean something that doesn't/shouldn't have any bearing on what happens in SL -- race, gender, age, appearance, profession.

Would a themed sim for people of African descent make sense when SL skin color is just a notch on a slider in the Appearances panel? Would Charlie Omega (appearing as a stark black demonic thing) qualify for that community?

I'm not against people forming groups or hanging out together or alternate sexualities or what-have-you. I'm just against this idea from a purely aesthetic point of view.