Raven, you Still, in Five pages of responses Not answered the First, and Most Important question posed to you;
Were you, or were you Not served with one of the Linden Warning Notecards?
Angel.
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Angelique LaFollette
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03-10-2007 11:51
Raven, you Still, in Five pages of responses Not answered the First, and Most Important question posed to you;
Were you, or were you Not served with one of the Linden Warning Notecards? Angel. |
Jopsy Pendragon
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03-10-2007 12:59
Frankly not only is Linden Labs banning of ageplay in Second Life Illegal. It is also a deeply troubling infringment upon human rights and our basic freedom of speech. Does the ACLU really have to get involved? Because I think theyd be willing too. Is it now? Care to show how you came to that rather absurd conclusion? |
Tegg Bode
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Join date: 12 Jan 2007
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03-10-2007 14:20
Frankly not only is Linden Labs banning of ageplay in Second Life Illegal. I'd like to see any lawyers argue this one. |
Sweet Primrose
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03-10-2007 15:37
"I'm less concerned about your misreading of Lolita, however, than I am about your conflating a significant and thought-provoking literary work with the discussion at hand. I don't see the connection."
It's a thought-provoking work that, at least when translated to film, simulates in a realistic way an adult's sexual relationship with a minor. She sure looks underage on screen, and we are meant to believe she is underage. No one argues (these days anyway....plenty of controversy at first) that Nabokov must be a closet pedophile to feel it necessary to imagine such a story, and surely it is just as specious an argument to insist that consenting adults who roleplay such relationships must also be pedophiles or some special order of pervert. Roleplay is a form of storytelling, impromptu acting. I have been sexually active since age 15, and I daresay that is the real life experience of the vast majority of my generation (I'm 21 now). This has nothing to do with LL... I am angry with the hordes of hypocrites even in this thread who know pre-18 sex IS THE NORM, and probably has been for millenia. I may not be as artistic and accomplished as Nabokov, but I have as much right to tell my stories, in whatever medium, as he had to tell his. In fact, I have MORE right, because I actually lived some of the things that he only imagined. |
Simha Singh
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03-10-2007 16:03
"I'm less concerned about your misreading of Lolita, however, than I am about your conflating a significant and thought-provoking literary work with the discussion at hand. I don't see the connection." It's a thought-provoking work that, at least when translated to film, simulates in a realistic way an adult's sexual relationship with a minor. She sure looks underage on screen, and we are meant to believe she is underage. No one argues (these days anyway....plenty of controversy at first) that Nabokov must be a closet pedophile to feel it necessary to imagine such a story, and surely it is just as specious an argument to insist that consenting adults who roleplay such relationships must also be pedophiles or some special order of pervert. Roleplay is a form of storytelling, impromptu acting. I have been sexually active since age 15, and I daresay that is the real life experience of the vast majority of my generation (I'm 21 now). This has nothing to do with LL... I am angry with the hordes of hypocrites even in this thread who know pre-18 sex IS THE NORM, and probably has been for millenia. I may not be as artistic and accomplished as Nabokov, but I have as much right to tell my stories, in whatever medium, as he had to tell his. In fact, I have MORE right, because I actually lived some of the things that he only imagined. Good grief. I never said Nabokov was a closet pedophile. I was responding to your invocation of a work of art which deals thoughtfully and provocatively with the subject of pedophilia. You had apparently missed the irony. It appears that you are still missing the irony, but this is hardly the place to get into literary criticism, so I don't plan to further explicate _Lolita_ on this forum. Back to the issue at hand: Please recall that no one is infringing on your "right to tell your stories." LL is simply requesting that you don't tell your stories to people who don't want to hear them. |
Yumi Murakami
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03-10-2007 16:24
No one argues (these days anyway....plenty of controversy at first) that Nabokov must be a closet pedophile to feel it necessary to imagine such a story, and surely it is just as specious an argument to insist that consenting adults who roleplay such relationships must also be pedophiles or some special order of pervert. Nabakov didn't write "Lolita" in order to sexually arouse himself. An escort clearly playing an adult woman who wears a costume for a traditionally-young role (schoolgirl, cheerleader, etc) is I think "ageplay" in the RL sense of the word - and in RL, it's completely distinct from anything to do with paedophilia. But people making avatar shapes with childlike faces, no hips, no or tiny boobs, etc... if a person is feeling greater sexual stimulation when playing out sex involving that kind of av, than they would with a corresponding adult-looking av, then they are a paedophile - even if they aren't making a conscious decision to be that way. And yes, that does mean you can be a paedophile against your own will. Children having sex with other children is usually a legally protected special case. However, if you're on the main grid of Second Life, it's assumed that you are over 18. As such, those provisions don't apply to you any more. However I think the issue here is far more likely to be to do with child pornography than actual paedophilia. Child pornography isn't defined by intent - in other words, if someone is caught with child porn, they can't escape the charge by saying that they weren't sexually aroused by it. And SL is much more vulnerable than RL here - if you look at something in RL, that's fine; but if you look at something in SL, then it's just been sent to you over the internet, which is a regulated communication medium. And while the law can't tell you that you should walk around with eyes closed just in case you saw something illegal, the law would have no problem telling you that you can't play Second Life just in case. It will be extremely negative for companies, universities, etc in the US and other countries to feel that they can't set up in Second Life because unless they make their build completely private, child porn might come walking in the door at any moment. |
Har Fairweather
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03-10-2007 16:32
Thanks, Simha. "Requesting that you don't tell your stories to people who don't want to hear them" is very close to the nub of what this is really all about - the right to be let alone.
And by the way, the Inquisition starts when you accept the proposition that you must prosecute people for the "crime" of having or expressing a proscribed thought or feeling even when there are no victims. If you think that, then you have started the Inquisition. I hope you join me soon in opposing it. |
Simha Singh
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03-10-2007 16:36
This might be a good spot for me to point out that my repeated use of the term "pedophilia" is quite intentional. Pedophilia is the most precise term to describe an adult's sexual attraction to children, and thus is the accurate term to describe someone who desires to roleplay sex with, or as, a child avatar. But I'm also using the term to make it clear that I fully support people's desire to openly role play with, or as, a child avatar in a non-sexual way.
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Simha Singh
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03-10-2007 16:45
Thanks, Simha. "Requesting that you don't tell your stories to people who don't want to hear them" is very close to the nub of what this is really all about - the right to be let alone. And by the way, the Inquisition starts when you accept the proposition that you must prosecute people for the "crime" of having or expressing a proscribed thought or feeling even when there are no victims. If you think that, then you have started the Inquisition. I hope you join me soon in opposing it. I take exception to the accusation that I started an Inquisition. ![]() As for your other comments, refer to Yumi's last paragraph, immediately prior to your post. |
Pablo Umpqua
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Re Ageplay rules.
03-10-2007 16:49
All I can say is hurrah for Linden Labs and what took so long! The Internet is not your private bedroom, nor is it your mind. What happens there effects the real world. Child abuse is a real problem. Sexualization of children is a real problem. The public spaces of Second Life should be subject to some minimum standards which it appears that are applying now, which do not impose content that many people find offensive on participants under the misleading rubric of "mature." Anyone who thinks that the internet means they should be able to do whatever they want is misguided. Anyone who enjoys depictions of child sexual acts which are considered heinous in most contexts should not have the cover of Second Life to be able to indulge these fantasies. This is not a free speech issue. Why should people who either have experienced abuse themselves or are working to help others who have been through it have to be exposed to such content...either through the search function or happenstance? However as I read the rules they appear to be based on language and behavior. If I mistaken and they are based on the appearance of an avatar, that is wrong, people should be able to advertise and participate in role play with child avatars, so long as they are not simulating sexual abuse which is actually a form of hatred against children. Once again, I congratulate Linden Labs.
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pablo umpqua
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Taylor Bayliss
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Leave the furries alone dammit !!
03-10-2007 17:14
I'm not a fur, know few furs, but puleeze let's leave them alone.....
Rather than worry about an adult having sex using a child avie, we should all worry about a underage RL child having sex using an adult avie...... |
Har Fairweather
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03-10-2007 17:15
I understand Yumi's concern, and it is in part mine.
If the government actually did try to stop people from going on SL "just in case," well, I'm no lawyer, but I think I'd put my money on SL's lawyers, not the government's. The potential for other damage to SL Yumi worries about is a major concern to me, because despite its flaws it is the leading example by far of what I think promises to be the biggest innovation in the online world since the Internet itself - the Virtual Reality 3D open platform. I do not want to see it harmed. That is why I am glad LL is getting sexual ageplay and promotion of it out of the public space in SL. But I do not want to see it become a platform for self-appointed thought police either, which IMO would hurt it worse in the long run. There are an endless number of platoons of would be thought-censors in the world, each with its own agenda, and if allowed, they will collectively shut down SL, one salami slice of it at a time. It is about far more than pedophiles. It is even far more than sex (which is saying a lot in SL): The anti-globalization crowd would not hesitate to launch a crusade against RL businesses locating here, for example: They are Heartless Oppressors, remember? This debate is about whether we establish a precedent for that; I think it is essential that we do not. |
Har Fairweather
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03-10-2007 17:22
I'm not a fur, know few furs, but puleeze let's leave them alone..... Rather than worry about an adult having sex using a child avie, we should all worry about a underage RL child having sex using an adult avie...... Hear, hear, Taylor! Why are so many of the people who are professing to be concerned for the children ignoring the issue of getting the kids off the adult grid? It is basic. |
Yumi Murakami
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03-10-2007 18:01
I understand Yumi's concern, and it is in part mine. If the government actually did try to stop people from going on SL "just in case," well, I'm no lawyer, but I think I'd put my money on SL's lawyers, not the government's. Well, I don't mean they'd actively try to stop people. What I mean is that if someone announced that they knew there existed child porn in SL, and yet still they logged in, then I can see the possibility of a court ruling that they did so at their own risk. That is tantamount to saying people can't play SL "just in case". |
tristan Eliot
Say What?!
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03-10-2007 18:10
I'm not a fur, know few furs, but puleeze let's leave them alone..... Rather than worry about an adult having sex using a child avie, we should all worry about a underage RL child having sex using an adult avie...... Thankyou Thankyou Thankyou!!! Yes I know credit card verification is not 100% age verification, but it is better than NOTHING. I don't know many teens with a credit card anyway. They need an age verification system to keep minors off the adult grid. |
Simha Singh
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03-10-2007 18:12
Hear, hear, Taylor! Why are so many of the people who are professing to be concerned for the children ignoring the issue of getting the kids off the adult grid? It is basic. Ok, for the record, I'm in favor of keeping minors off the adult grid. I think I probably speak for...uh...everyone...except maybe a few minors that want to be on the adult grid. I also think we should be kind to animals and do our part to pick up litter, but since neither of these things are related to the subject at hand, I wasn't going to mention them. |
Colette Meiji
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03-10-2007 18:13
I think the minors on the adult grid is seperate from the sexual age play issue.
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Har Fairweather
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03-10-2007 18:22
I think they are separate parts of the same basic issue, Colette. The major objection to sexual ageplay is the perception that it might be a risk to RL children, far more than the general disgust factor.
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Colette Meiji
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03-10-2007 18:39
I think they are separate parts of the same basic issue, Colette. The major objection to sexual ageplay is the perception that it might be a risk to RL children, far more than the general disgust factor. I dont agree. Im pretty sure very few of the minors whove lied to get on the grid are into age play. I dont think most of the Lindens stated reasons are the actual reasons for banning it. Most of the objection to age play from people Ive spoken to is what it simulates - an Adult having sex with a child. This provokes a pretty basic negative reaction. The fact we know its adults on both ends doesnt dull that for most of us. People making virtual sexual images of children are adults too - and this evokes that same reaction Its that very reaction which disturbed the Fox News person in the report and she knew (probably even more a factor) her audience would have the same one. There are many who fear a risk to children as a secondary effect - allowing pedophiles to indulge their fantasies potentially will embolden them to seek the same thing. Of course theres no evidence of this. It is a scary concept though. Considering that there is evidence of adult behaviors experimented with online lead to RL adult behaviors of the same - this is definitely a concern. Plenty of people have tried BDSM and Gor irl after first experimenting online for example. WHich is fine since they are consenting adults. I dont from my conversations on this issue get any more of a sesne of fear the age players are RL minors than the concern any "adult Av" sexual partner might be a minor. It would be preferable to reinstate Age verification. However all residents did give their birthday on sign up and were all suposedly adults. This is enough to access Many adult sites on the Internet. SO I can see why LL doesnt feel liable to do more. More of us should take advantage of banning unverifieds if our content is mature. |
Har Fairweather
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03-10-2007 18:49
Banning unverifieds if our content is mature....not a bad idea, methinks, Colette.
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Sweet Primrose
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03-10-2007 21:33
"I never said Nabokov was a closet pedophile."
I never claimed that you had. You misunderstood me as well, and Lolita's ironies are certainly not lost on me. My point is that no one accuses him of having had purient interests for writing his story. And no one should assume the same about people who roleplay they are sexually active at 15.... especially since a good percentage of people in real life actually ARE sexually active at 15. See, the ban goes all the way up to 17, as far as I can see. And also as far as I can see, the ban is NOT just on advertising, which I think would have been perfectly reasonable, but it seems to extend also to practice. |
Colette Meiji
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03-10-2007 21:40
"I never said Nabokov was a closet pedophile." I never claimed that you had. You misunderstood me as well, and Lolita's ironies are certainly not lost on me. My point is that no one accuses him of having had purient interests for writing his story. And no one should assume the same about people who roleplay they are sexually active at 15.... especially since a good percentage of people in real life actually ARE sexually active at 15. See, the ban goes all the way up to 17, as far as I can see. And also as far as I can see, the ban is NOT just on advertising, which I think would have been perfectly reasonable, but it seems to extend also to practice. people under 18 shouldnt be in Second Life - Sexually active or not. As for roleplaying - an adult roleplaying sex as a child with another adult roleplaying as a child is still sexual ageplay. In real life of course two underage children might have sex - thats a different discussion. |
Usagi Musashi
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03-10-2007 22:07
Originally Posted by wesley Vargas Frankly not only is Linden Labs banning of ageplay in Second Life Illegal. It is also a deeply troubling infringment upon human rights and our basic freedom of speech. Does the ACLU really have to get involved? Because I think theyd be willing too. Is it now? Care to show how you came to that rather absurd conclusion? You know why do people try to hide behide laws Jopsy? Or even try to explain freedom of rights. when it goes to tastless and really sick actions like ageplay.....I bet these types are just so common in their everyday life with dreams that are trustly tacky and outright sick _____________________
Never Quote People that have no idea what they refering to..It give them a false feeling the need for attention...
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Simha Singh
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03-10-2007 22:39
"I never said Nabokov was a closet pedophile." I never claimed that you had. You misunderstood me as well, and Lolita's ironies are certainly not lost on me. My point is that no one accuses him of having had purient interests for writing his story. And no one should assume the same about people who roleplay they are sexually active at 15.... especially since a good percentage of people in real life actually ARE sexually active at 15. See, the ban goes all the way up to 17, as far as I can see. And also as far as I can see, the ban is NOT just on advertising, which I think would have been perfectly reasonable, but it seems to extend also to practice. I am growing weary, and I believe my ability to contribute cogently to this discussion has nearly reached an end, so forgive me if I fail to follow up. Look, when I was 17, I had sex with a 19 year old. Was the 19 year old a pedophile? No, of course not. If my 15 year old daughter asked for birth control because she wanted to have sex with her 15 year old boyfriend, would I provide it? Yes. If I discovered my 17 year old daughter was having sex with a 28 year old, would I be concerned? You bet. Would I say the 28 year old was a pedophile? I dunno. If I walked in on the babysitter molesting my 4 year old, would there be any question about whether the baby-sitter is a pedophile? No. We could certainly sit here and construct tortured examples of what might be so close to being acceptable in RL that many would say it was fine, but I don't see the point. This isn't _Lolita_ and it's not _Romeo and Juliet_. And LL has already provided a very simple solution: Don't promote sexual acts with people under 18. Moreover, you are free to do what you wish in private, so, if that involves two 15 year olds, that is your business. Incidentally, quite a few people have accused Nabokov of having prurient interests. |
Morwen Bunin
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03-10-2007 23:17
I dont agree. Im pretty sure very few of the minors whove lied to get on the grid are into age play. I am affraid that the minors on the main grid don't have a childs avatar, but some very mature ones. I think they will do everything to hide their true age. (Which brings me back to my old point of view, that parents are directly responcible for their children do behind the computer.... but that is another discusion). Morwen. |