Extending the "No Access" barrier over your land

You led off with a quote from me that your are responding to/refuting/venting about. Believe it or not, I strongly agree with you too! You, too, are right!

I hit ban lines when travelling around. Security orbs too. We all should have freedom of movement, and landowners, freedom from fear. But the reason for their behavior is usually not paranoia or pathological ownership mania, not in the vast majority of cases. The reason is:

GRIEFERS

Look at most of the posts defending banlines/orbs/freeze-eject-ban-AR and what do you see? Horror story after horror story of griefers. Look at them and you will see they are justified too. I share your nostalgia for the days of yore in SL - and I've only been here since November!

The real problem is griefers. Get rid of most of them, and I'll bet you US$ to L$ that a lot of those ban lines will start coming down and those orbs will start getting turned off.

There are reports LL is getting better about dealing with griefers when they are AR'd. That should help, maybe a lot. But I think what would make the biggest difference of all would be: REQUIRE ALL ACCOUNTS TO BE VERIFIABLE AND RESPONSIBLE. Then we could get rid of the root problems quicker - and screen out many of them from ever signing up in the first place.

Very well said Roxxy, I agree with you 100 percent. Paranoia rules in SL it seems to me. There is no security. You can see into my home and vice versa. I have ban lines on 2 sides of my land, protecting nothing, no buildings at all. How weird is that?

1. Not everyone sees SL as a game. Like you said, it's a matter of perspective. For some, it's a social tool. For others, it's a means of entertainment. For other's still, it's an income platform they use to generate revenue. To simply label SL as a video game because that is how some may see it seems a bit, unfair.

2. People obviously care about other's land, otherwise this would not be an issue. As rehashed and beaten to death this argument is, it always at it's root comes down to something similar to "Because you are doing X on/with your land, I feel impeded and/or inconvienced in such a way." If one didn't care about the ban lines on another's land, he or she would make no comment. But because the lines effect you in some way, no matter how small, a comment is made. So to say no one cares is also seemingly untrue.

3. It's not always about sex-doing the nasty-bumping uglies-cartoon sex-etc etc etc. I cannot definitievely speak for anyone else, but for me....my SL home is a reprive. It's a place for me to sit back and relax with Maggie and our ingame family and friends. We spend time together and watch a movie. We invite our in-game daughters over to discuss things that are bothering them. We build and take pictures and texture and design, trying to start our own little business. It's a place for us to escape from the rest of SL for a little while and get a few things relevant to us done.

4. Social MMORPG vs Anti-Social MMORPG. Again....not everyone sees SL as a game. For those of us who use SL to generate income, having people walking up randomly and disturbing your train of thought can not only be frustrating...but costly. For those of us who use SL as a means of expressing/seekign some sort of human interaction (simulated as it may be) with loved ones across the country/globe...having an uninvited guest come wandering in distrubting the moment can be quiet disheartening. Even still...for those of us who DO use SL as simply a social tool may not wish to socialize with everyone at everytime. There are times when serious issues need to be discussed with a select group of people. There are times when you've done your socializing for the day and now wish to simply vent to someone or a small group of someones in particular.

Maggie and I, despite our support and vocalness in support of Banlines have never actually used them. We instead employ a small security orb. It covers roughly half our parcel, where our home is, and extends I belive 48 meter's up. It has done so for the past few months, long before the ban line height was lowered to 100 meters. Half of our parcel is currently being redesigned as a zen garden, open to the public, 24/7 with a small koi pond, rock garden, and perhaps a Mahjong table is prims and space permits. Before that it was a grassy garden with apple and cherry trees, a centralized koi pond, and several pose balls about for both couples and individuals to use and enjoy.

We've experienced both sides of the argument and fully understand both points of view. We like our home private for private discussions and functions (arguments, family talks, taking pictures of the girls and their friends before parties and such), but at the same time we try not to "bogard" the airways over the house and garden and such. It remains open for one and all to sit in and enjoy (even if it is still under construction).

To just assume those of us who understand, or even go so far as to support the use of banlines are anti-social or self important is not only a bit harsh, but downright offensive. And to say...



Again...not only remains opinion...but perspective. I would love to hear if those people out there generating Real Life incomes see this as something akin to World or Warcraft or Battlefield 1942.

Indeed. I wonder if those who use SL to help make ends meet in RL and put food on the table in their RL homes believe SL is, as you put it, "make believe".

~Edited, and still being edited, for grammar and spelling mistakes.~

*Applauds to Roxie*

You put the finger directly where it hurts..

Morwen.

Yours being the correct one, apparently. What were you saying about self-importance again?



Is it self-involved to want my own space, damn the consequences to anyone else? Sure. But it's equally self-involved to expect complete strangers to lay aside what they're comfortable with in order to accommodate you.

I'm puzzled that on so many issues, the solution is always one extreme or the other. Is the program that poorly designed that only draconian changes can be made to it. In this instance, the one question I have asked repeatedly is, Can buildings be made so that you can't look through the walls, or sit on a prim and go through them? If not why? If so, why is it such a big deal to do it?Or to want it more importatntly..

There is a tension between RL and SL.... and SL would lose big time if RL would become in danger.... and for me, that is the only way it should be.

*dives into her RL bed*

Morwen.

I lost my stinkin quoted text somewhere, but to Roxie and the person who said their post was well said...

I disagree, not very well said. Name calling and insults because people have made a choice to put up options that were given to them by SL (Im talking ban lines, tyvm) solves nothing and only shows how me me me me me me oriented people are in this game. I hate to say it, it isnt a world all about you. Its about every single person that is in this game. There ARE places to fly, its not a "I can only fly right here in these spots and there are ban or orbs up and now I cant the game is ruined" kind of world. There ARE people that are being harrassed without any way to stop it and so their only recourse is using ban lines or orbs to keep others away. Its not ALWAYS about keeping everyone out, but when you can go and create alt after alt to harrass someone, sometimes the safest thing you feel you can do is blockout anyone but those invited.

The ONLY place the me me me attitude could possibly work is on your own land. Period. That land is all about you, the plot next to you...not so much. Yes, you want people to respect each other in this game but just because someone makes a change to their plot about not letting anyone in doesnt mean they sat and figured out just who they would screw over. I do NOT use ban lines or orbs around my home, you wanna wander around it feel free. However, I DO know people, renters included, that feel a need to do so in order to enhance THEIR game play on land they are paying for. Instead, because you want to be able to fly over any space on the map, they should have no ban lines or orbs for anyone and go through being harrassed? I agree some people abuse those stupid prbs, my renters are told to take them down as a matter of fact....but there are indeed cases where people might need that extra security to enjoy their game and their land. Dont THEY have that right for their land, or do they have to sacrifice that in case you want to fly through? You dont know each persons individual case, try not calling people names that you dont even know. Clumping ANY group of people and using blatant insults is just uncalled for.

If SL really isnt fun for you anymore and you want a place you can fly...I would suggest checking out There.com ....they have a seamless world on large islands and vehicles you can use to fly non stop without a ban line or orb in site. There are some restricted no vehicle areas but they are obvious to find. Its a nice place to get out and do some flying if thats the deal breaker for you on if SL is fun or not. Good luck and happy flying.

Clearly you missed the point.... on MY land I am forced to watch ugly ban-lines. I didn't ask for that, I am forced to that... on my own land.

And as stated by others, they lost items by orbs... on their own land.

Morwen.

Owning (or going to )a gay club when I first started in April of last year was no big deal. But then LL opened up UNVERIFIED enrollment, and all bets were off. So were the gloves.

I cannot be in SL 24/7. I will not hire a security force. I did have a security orb, but it booted club members more often than greifers.

The one decent protection against greifing is banning no payment info on file. It works. (Of course no-push, object return, etc. set on my land help even more.)

So if the antibanliners would band with the antiUNVERIFIEDaccounters, maybe LL would listen and fix the system. Until then, I won't ever allow no-payment-info-on-file AVs in my club, art studio or shops.

I hate ban lines. They are probly my least favorite part of SL. They ruin the landscape and worst of all they eat boats. I have lived on the mainland coast for a year and a half now and have seen hundreds of boats run into red fences before they have a chance to react. The result is always the same. E-jection. I know from personal experience that crossing a sim border into a no entry fence in a boat is going to send you on a spinning trip through the ground, or whatever the 30 seconds of grey-green blur is. Once you do come back to sea level, good luck finding your boat. Fortunately, all but a couple of the ban lines have been down for quite some time in mine an the neighboring sims. I always feel pity for the residents of sims that are so blocked off with red fences that you cannot walk around. It's worse than having a neighbor who puts up an ugly build. As far as the people who put up the fences, I feel sorry for them because they are so paranoid, and have to live with their own sad brains. They are not only locking out a world of opportunity, but creating an ugly, unfriendly blemish on the sim that disturbs everyone else. Isn't that griefing?

Thats funny, I dont normally SEE ban lines unless I am bonking into them, unless maybe you have a spot to sit right against your land lines. I do believe many, myself included, mentioned that LL does need to find a way to let a player turn those off.

As for the suggesting people go somewhere else snide remark. Actually, I was doing no such thing, but since I dont fully outright agree with what you want in the game you are eager to point that misconceived notion out arent ya?

I suggested it because There DOES have great flying oportunities for someone that stated they love flying but couldnt do so in RL or SL anymore. Did I say anywhere that the person should stop playing SL and go play the other game only? Um, nope, I dont see that anywhere. SL does not offer good flying anymore due to MANY reasons, some of which are discussed here...There doesnt have those issues and provides great views for flying. Its also free, I think, it was the last time I looked. So again, happy flying.

Again, is the only way you can say you dont like something and someones choice by insulting them? Seriously people, I may not like bonking into ban lines or being popped off somewhere random by an orb, but you dont know the situation the person is in or the reason they have it up to begin with. You want them to respect others, but by name calling and insulting them show none in the first place. ...and you say BAN lines are unfriendly?

And while I may not agree with the removal of ban lines, I certainly sympathize with your point Morwen. Months ago at a previous parcel, Maggie and I were banlined on all four sides. Also, given the textures used in our house, and the size of our home, not only could we see the line from nearly any point in the home, but they would actually show through some of the walls. Ick.

I completely understand, sympathize, and even agree that you, having done nothing wrong should be forced to look at these unsightly red (or green) Ban/Acess lines, which is why Maggie and myself refrain from erecting them. However I disagree with the point that everyone that chooses to employ them is anti-social, self important, or has them up so they can (as the kids say) "get thier freak on".

As for people losing items on their own land due to security orbs, I cannot comment on that as I have been fortunate enough to have never had that happen to me, or anyone I know. Granted, this lack of experience in this area doesn't invalidate another valid point in regards to it, but I will say that inproperly and/or malfunctioning orbs are not always the fault of the owner. Just sometime last month, the club I frequent almost nightly was being spammed with "You have 5 seconds to leave or will be ejected" messages. Not only were the messages coming from a different parcel, but they were coming from a parcel on the next sim over.

Both ban lines AND security orbs can be proper problems that can make you just want to say "Bugger it all!" and punch someone in the teeth. But to clump everyone who uses these things into the same group of (paraphrased) anti-social malcontents in need of a therapist is simply rude and offensive.

And the spelling is "pitiful"

I had neighbors who complained to me about my ban lines. I immediately added them to the allowed list and the lines went away for them. One of them became a good friend. Have you been able to contact your neighbors?

I wonder if LL could add a feature that could turn off ban line views as we can now turn off rendering of water, clouds, trees, etc.?

im sorry can you clarify?

i know english may not be your first language and i dont want to reply inappropiatly.
however i do agree with my partner. to many this is a "game", to others it supplements thier income, to other still, its a social platform. i always worry when one reduces another's rights to privacy as being paranoid and anti social, w/o knowing that person.

Joseph and i are very social, have many guests and yes has had part of our parcel opened and are in the process of making a zen like garden for those who wish to just chill and relax.
but we do want our private time. and there is nothing wrong with that. i do realise and respect the fact that you are not like that, in being you are very social. in my early days i too also flew around, w/o a plane. and i hit banlines. i did not expect the owners of said banlines to drop them because i was flying i simply went around. it never occured to me to ask the property owner or demand of them to drop them simply so i can fly thru. that would have been rude. maybe im applying my RL ethnics too much to this, but with the banlines already dropped to 100 meters, there is more than enough room for those who wish to fly to use. when does it end? when they can buzz the house? the residents? dive bomb the land itself? crash and leave there prim garbage there for the landowners or renters to clean up? when will enough space to fly be enough space to fly? i agree banlines are ugly, but a necessary evil until more aggressive actions can be taken in regards to griefing. but until then, dont assume and agree that those who use them are "paranoid self important people". far from it. i can't speak for those who do use them, we never have, or reduce ones hard work and endeavors to a cartoonish level, and yes by validating roxie statement you agreed that it was so, but until the issue with grid attacks and the like are solved, ban lines are here to stay.

Another question. Can ban lines be made invisible, but still be in effect? They are an eyesore definitely.I am also of the mind that opening up the gates is a big problem, a lot of good citizens are unverified free accounts, but a lot aren't. I say, grandfather those that are here, give incentives to verify for those that won't, figure out a way for those that can't, and end the idea, after a reasonable trial period, either you sign up or are shown the door. Or at the very least, start cracking down on the miscreants.

I'm wagering they could put it in somewhere, and a lot of people have been asking. Im confused as to how so many people seem to see these lines from a much further distance than I do though. I never see them until I am standing against the property line or bonking my way up one, which is a fun treat as well lol.

It would be fantastic if there was an area in your preferences to toggle show/do not show ban lines. It wouldnt solve the flying issue at all, but save those that have issue with seeing the lines the annoyance.

If you're willing to figure out that JRAA whatchamacallit and propose this....I'll gladly sign.

*hangs her head and goes to figure that thing out* Damn...I had to open my big mouth


Oh, out of pure curiosity...how big is your parcel that you saw the lines surrounding you? I dunno what I did to make it so I never see the lines except close up, but I hope I dont undo it anytime soon lol

The parcel itself (that Maggie and I were on), was roughly 4000 square meters, but the home we placed on it was relatively small and against a makeshift road between us and a neighbor's home to the east, and a waterway to our south. At one point, our neighbor to the far west bought both the parcel to our east, one to the north, and the strip of water to our south. And because our windows were alpha textured onto the house itself, the ban lines would actually show thru the walls on 2 sides of the house.

To the north and west, we actually had to travel a bit to see the lines, but like I said, because of where we had dropped the house when we moved in...the ban lines were visible througout the living room and first floor bedroom.

If you were addressing Morwen....then please ignore everything I said and ummmm...get back to that JRAA thingamabobber.

"I never see the lines except close up" - When I'm flying around I never seem to see them until I ram them. I don't mind going around ban-lines, but finding the lines and then going around them is quite hard to do. I move my 'copter to fly next to the lines so I can find the end, and lose sight of the lines. Turn myself slightly to see if line is still there, and oops I've hit the line and I'm 80 meters away and my 'copter, somehow or other, is now on the other side of the ban line from me. Still trying to figure it out.

I am slightly confused, though, how ban-lines keep griefers out. Seems they can just hover/stand, or whatever outside and shout at you (and litter the ground outside, etc.).

lol Joseph, yep I was curious about your lines. Im being dragged kicking and screaming to a movie but when I get back Ima figure that thingamajiggie out and get that up for everyone.

Sonia, ok kinda glad its not just me that doesnt see them right away. I think maybe that will be something added to this proposel, instead of just toggle on and off, a toggle and maybe even a draw distance for them so they show further for people that are flying. Maybe it could help to prevent them from the bonk n loss of vehicle deal that so many go through.

Any other actuall suggestions that would help with options regarding this would be extremely helpful and welcome. If there was a way to solve all of the issues with one fix, it would be great...but I dont see it

That is not correct. Getting close to them is more then enough....

http://www.xs4all.nl/~morwen65/Images/Second%20Life/Ban%20lines.jpg



I made the comment a bit annoyed. It was no good comment. So I removed it.

Morwen..

The bad luck is that one of the co-owners, while I brought her to SL, turned in a bad way to me. So no, that is in this matter that is no solution. BTW I am convinced that this bad thing between her and me is not the reason for those ban-lines.

Morwen.