Gorean Question

Ah but it's only the snobs who start laying down the law! I'm sure there are a thousand quiet, happy, non-intrusive Goreans for every tedious rule-busting consent-stomping redneck plonker - but they more than make up for the other guys' silence, more's the pity.

A few thoughts from this thread and from what I see of Gor & Goreans in-world:

a) if there was one thing that would make me put on a furry costume, it's Gor & Goreans. And that's saying a lot.

b) Most self-confessed Goreans I meet appear (and yes, this could be just me) to not only be Gorean, but defensive about it. It doesn't seem to make them especially happy or at peace. That's odd.

c) note the OP wanted SOMEONE ELSE to produce something to meet THEIR standard of originality. This is, to put it mildly, a tall order.

d) I notice this obsession with "real/not real" comes up a lot in American assessments of subcultures. It's not just a Gor thing; it applies to general BDSM, fetishism, and paid-for services too. I simply don't understand why someone would in effect, guarantee their ongoing dissatisfaction with whatever they find, because at each turn, it's "not real". In the end, it seems, it's never real. But then, this response fits with another observation which gets me into trouble, that people who use sexual subcultures are fundamentally, all, bad social negotiators. That would certainly explain why all the avenues of negotiation to a happy co-existence with furries seem to be magically closed by one rule of Gor, or another...

e) Commonly the big problem with complex RPs is justification - people don't know why they should behave this way or that, because they need some simple rules to work from. Running RPs without an agreed rule background is damn near impossible - and conversely, if the rules are sufficiently clear, the RP participants don't even need to speak the same language for it to all come together well. There is an option, though, that solves this problem: Machinima. If the OP got some friends together and gave them the reason to stick to he book, being that they would actually re-enact something from one of the book s- then that would be much easier for everyone to know what to do. From my sleazing and cruising around, I see a lot of environments which are beautifully realised and well styled - the KDC shop I think of as being a top-ten location in SL, for example - and full of people who don't know what to do with themselves.

Machinima provides context.

You nailed it right on the head Gummi. Though you have to admit that it's funny that a BDSM fetishist (and yes that's what Goreans in SL are and that's all they are with a few exception as stated in my earlier post) though you have to admit that there is a certain irony to a fetishist being the verbally b**ch slapped (self censored due to forum rules) when asking a question about his fetish. Also, from now on I'm going to refer to Gor solely as a fetish since with the exception of one or two posters above who have their heads screwed on straight most of the goreans / pro gorean posts have shown that is all it is to them.

I agree,, and it actually somewhat surprises me that the right to do rp rule books based on the books of gor hasn't been sold off much like what was done with the LOTR (that's Lord of the Rings for all you non uber-nerds) P&P (pencil and paper) RPG (rocket proppelled guinea pig ) or done in a huge ever extending ruleset like the D&D (Dungeons and Dragons) universe.

I agree; it's kinda inherent that people who select Gor have eschewed subtlety, so you need to bang on their skull a bit and shout louder before they hear you. Their Gor-ishness is your sign that going for subtle ain't gonna work.

And I definitely agree about the one-way intrusion thing; in RL, where I have been playing for 20 years or more now, I've always believed that to assert the right to live the way I want, I have to take the responsibility of not disrupting other people's lives. I don't generally go to the office dressed in rubber, because it would interrupt other people, challenge their values, cause their imaginations to run riot, and do a lot of other stuff I'd not want to happen to me.

In SL, it seems to me that the Gor crowd do like parading around, more than the other crowds - though a word of caution is required: there's a huge number of people who want to play generalised kink, and then find that when they go buying accessories, everything is in a Gor idiom - scripted poses, collar designs, you name it, it's all been done first by highly-motivated Goreans. So not everyone you may see in those poses is automatically a fully paid up member.

(by the way, if you want them to get seriously annoyed, then point out that Gor is very much a proletarian movement, and that puts it extremely close to the other difficult movements which have included segregationism through history: invariably, it's the working class who come up with these notions themselves, and implement them againt the advice of the intellectuals. National Socialism, Apartheid, "Comfort Women", the Klan: all have low reading age in common. Original Communism, and traditional american Capitalism, on the other hand, are upheld by the elite...)

Uh, what steps have you taken to research this assertion? It's basically, impossible to guarantee that you are right about that - never mind whether you should/shouldnot or if it shows you to be a good/bad person or WTF - it's simply too much hard work to back that up with supporting facts. What, for example, can you say about my relationships? Please include the bit that involved Madonna, or the wife of the colombian gold-mine manager. Oh wait, you didn't know about those?



Erm. Since the "personal dynamic" is different from one person to another, I think this is just another hopeful assertion by someone who believes that their self-stuck title of dominant saves them from having to think hard about what they say, read, or see. Never mind all that, just hammer the square peg into the round hole until her (oops, I mean it's) edges are sufficiently blunted.

If you are going to seek to solve a problem by impositions and revelations, you need to be a lot better at it than this!

It's weak and merely argumentative to attack someone's views based on words that you can't be bothered to supply. It shows that you didn't really want to face an argument, just wanted to get a cheap dig in, but because you don't have the words to support you, you have neither ammo nor accuracy, and you have countered nothing.

And I know how unnecessary speculation on you is at all, and just as unwarranted as your sudden hot-air ambush of "Your views suck, though I can't tell you what they are!" It seems more that you're using Me as a proxy for someone else you didn't get to finish an argument with.

I don't show that you're qualified to make the disctinction between fetish, kink, and philosophy. Whereas I'm more likely to borrow fetishes as My own kinks than, sadly, most Goreans, and the framework of the philosophy encourages it, that doesn't make them one and the same. But the way you take gratification in your intellectual sloppiness does suggest some kinks in your own head.

I also don't see any lifestyler or playstyler getting b|tchslapped so much as steamrolled with spam. I hear repeatedly how obnoxious and fanatical and unstubtle those Goreans are, but all your logical premeses are based on lack of perspective, lack of practical experience, and personal grudges.

Do you also lack the self-consciousness to see how you've been displaying all the worst traits you're accusing THEM of? And how eagerly you'll accept any gesture of US support, no matter how off the mark, just as long as it's against THEM. Ooo, you seethe with rage against those THEMs, how patently hateful those THEMs are, everyone, let's get THEM!

Meanwhile, I've been soberly pointing back to the more episthemelogical roots of the cultural experience, what has made Gorean culture and Earth culture what they are, and no one has entertained that thread enough for Me to even begin constructing the similarities and differences between them. It's easy enough to see that none of you care for a discussion of understanding, you just came here to vent against THEM, the ones you're assured are wrong and fanatical.

I just might be that hardliner Gorean everyone seems to accuse Me of being, but you won't actually get evidence of that in any of My expression here in this thread, because I have been trying to get everyone to look at it from a much broader perspective. Given that Gor is a fantasy world, EVERY AND ALL arguments are hypothetical anyway, so if you're going to argue about it without looking comical, then detach yourself from the hypotheses and keep the kneejerking to a minimum.

You're right, by saying 'most' rather than 'all' I'm pretty absolved of the need to research or address each and every historical instance or literary allusion. So you can probably assure yourself that I wasn't talking about you, either. Unless you're not so sure, but that's not My responsibility.

I think you're making another fallacy of scope, here. Slavery as an institution doesn't take into account any two people, and makes assertions on a broad cultural structure. Slavery as an institution on Gor goes beyond the womanhating the casual observer perceives it to be. But if you'd done your homework, I wouldn't need to tell you that, and then you might have some logical grounds for objection that doesn't involve yourself.

Yeah, that. It seemed to me that while people were giving their opinions that disagreed with the Gorean whateverness, Prodigal's replies felt more condescending; less like "These are my views, let's talk about them over tea." and more like "zomg you can't have an opinion because you're ill educated about it." That's just what I got.

I don't give a damn if you have consenting slaves IRL, RP Gor in your living room, or whatever. If that's your thing, that's your thing, no issues from me. But the moment you get on your high and mighty horse and talk down to those who oppose you/your fantasy/your whatever, it makes you a weenie. Holier than thou attitudes are so five years ago.

Like ( I think Chav? ) said earlier, I wasn't aware that you had to be an expert on a certain subject to form an opinion about it. The Gorean thing doesn't really appeal to me, and I just leave it at that. However, am I not allowed to speak out against ( if I had beef with it ) because I haven't read the books, without being crucified? Aren't people allowed to disagree with the ideas and notions the Gor books represent without forcing themselves to read it, to appease those who are experts? Boo @ that.

Just sayin'.

For the other "Them"s out there defending your chosen fun/lifestyle against the "Us"s, lets just stop. Yet again a thread originally having nothing to do with the right/wrongness of Gor has been hijacked as another soapbox for those who wish to detract from what others choose. Whether you choose Gor as an rp, or part of your lifestyle, its your choice, and you don't have to defend it. I personally am hugely offended that it was implied that because I rp Gor, my intelligence must be low. Excuse me, but I happen to have 2 bachellors and a masters degree. I don't need my intelligence questioned because I like to rp a particular way. We have been calmly trying to defend something we have no particular need to, to try to explain to the uninformed. And in response all we've faced is some nasty insulting, some finger pointing, and some self righteous soapboxing. Somehow, despite the fact that we stick to ourselves, on our privately paid for land, we offend everyone. Apparently, because I show up in costume to beat the crowd to the newest ETD styles, I'm somehow offending them with my bow and spears. Apparently the "slave" girl next to me, in her pretty silks, is also somehow offensive. But the people wearing head to toe latex, with piercings through it, and ballet heels, isn't. I have to say, I see about equal numbers of each when I go shopping. The fact is, that SL is a great forum for both rp, and for sexual exploration. People find happiness in all sorts of things. No one is forcing anyone to do anything here. Why can't anyone understand that. We're just having fun, enjoying our secondlife. Leave us alone for goodness sakes, if you don't like it. You have GOT to have something better to do with your day. Me personally...I have a few men to shoot with arrows.

~Dream

Well, No. By D/S snob I am refering to those that are not only happy in their own D/S lifestyle(of whatever flavor) but take it upon themselves to say its a better lifestyle than any other. They will claim their love is more profound, Their devotion more true, that the D/S is a better way of life than what anyone in the mainstream lives.

I note this to specifically differ from those D/S adherants who think D/S is the absolute best course for them, since it very well may be. They might suggest you try it. But they dont claim that D/S is better than any other system for everyone.

People of every lifestyle can be this sort of snob. You can get a testmonial on traditional marriage so sickeningly sweet it would drive you insane too, along with people saying that that is the only possible way to find "true" love.

People are different. What may work for one , wont work for another.

I think in human history that most cultures have embraced a one on one union of a man and a woman who are (more or less) equal. This of course erroded in societies that practice/ practiced Male supremacy. But still the woman was far from a slave in most.

This is the standard relationship model for humans. Therefore it would be the basis where everything else would be considered alternative.

I would criticize someone saying "only a good christian marriage will bring happiness type of relationship" snob equally as much as a D/S one.

Word. You summed up a lot of my thoughts in one sentence. :/ You got mad skillz.

Maybe you have, from your perspective, but the only thing I've really gotten from your arguments is, "I'm right and you're all wrong! Nah nah nah nah nah." Among other things, you insist on harping on people's supposed prejudices and kneejerk reactions, never mind that having a strongly held opinion which differs from your own does not automatically constitute prejudice. Returning repeatedly to the same attack without bothering to give any apparent consideration to anyone else's concerns only makes you seem more close-minded than the people you've accused. Pot, kettle, black.

And why are you bothering anyway? Assuming everyone here is actually diehard anti-Gor, nothing you can say will change their minds. If your life and philosophy work for you, and no one is trying to take them from you, why should you care what anyone else thinks? Unless you just enjoy having an excuse to drag out your soapbox and start leveling the previously mentioned accusations, which is what it seems like to me at this point.

Since your new to the forums with only a handful of posts - I would point out that thread hijacking is culturally ingraned around here. SO is heated debate about a handful of subjects.

This is actually one of the better Gor debates Ive ever seen in these forums.

Id agree with you that RL slavery and Gor slavery differ a lot.

One thing I dont think is understood by many of the posters is that its obviously so in the books as well , since the women are decribed much differently than real women would be in the same situation of enslavement.

The books very clearly make slavery about sexual discovery on the part of a woman. And in many of the man who Masters her. Many often take the form of a romance in that the Master and Slave end up living happily ever after (at least till a later book).

I find those who feel all women are the way Norman describes in the books are really out of touch with reality. But Those who think Gorean slavery is portryed like actual historical slavery also are incorrect.

Really? Cool. Well, as they say, "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."....which, I might point out has also been a subtext in this thread by many. A good number have repeatedly pointed out that when someone goes to another privately owned themed sim, that those "guests/visitors" observe and be respectful of the rules and laws of the land and acclimate themselves to the local culture, whether it is Gorean or any other rp fantasy. And, if they can't do that for whatever reason: personal values, personal taste, lack of self control, pms, bad hair day, etc., then they can leave or alternately, they can be booted out.

But, instead what has been demonstrated here over and over is that some would prefer to disrespect and thumb their nose at the local culture and chose to do the equivalent of marching into another's home and proceed to tell them how to keep their house or cook their meals which segues nicely into my attempt to honor the culture here, in this forum....

Does anyone, here, have a good recipie for bosk? I mean, that stuff is soooo chewy, you know? What do you use to tenderize it?

*laughs* I was being a bit silly - Tradition would work better than culture thinking on your response.

Traditionally on these forums much like others the concept of on topic is pretty liberal. Some posters predate the total neutering of these forums as well. And in the old days certain subjects brought on huge flame wars. Gor for right or wrong brough many.

I think its a good idea for visitors to private sims to be polite

As I mentioned in my opinion Gor, being such a target for criticism might be better served by making the sims not open to the public but sponsering a information area seperate from the actual role play sims.

As for Bosk , If i remember right, it is generally roasted and honeyed.

Maybe from your perspective. So you're sure you can reasonably support that perspective with the text you've read, or are your feelings enough? I haven't accused anyone of being wrong, but I have accused them of not really caring whether they're right anyway.


Now that is probably the most civil way anyone on this thread as told Me to go to hell. Ah, but the fact is, I didn't hijack this thread in the first place, I just stuck around to tell those who have that they have close-minded perspectives based more on supposition than information, and they have countered with 'Why bother since I don't like it anyway?'

Actually, the institution of Gorean slavery was much broader than just the romances and d/s dynamic, and wasn't that different from historical slavery dating back to Ancient Greek. Let's not forget that there were mere labor slaves, and that men were slaves as well (I have to give a little respecct to the boys who undertake that role in Gorean RP, because it is one of the more thankless and stressful roles.)

As for the blanket depiction of ALL women, I reserve such judgement even while the evidence for a particular woman is revealing itself. And beyond that I make no conclusions encompassing all women, because it may be that I draw an inordinate share of extreme submissive types, it may be that I draw the qualities of slavery out of women by My personality, and yes, I'm even willing to believe I may be totally deluded. The last seems less likely seeing has how I was a reluctant dom for almost a decade before I even accepted being called Master without having contempt for the term. Hell, I was brought up a progressive male by a mother in combat boots and a sister who taught Me martial arts, how could I ever think of women THAT WAY?

You could say that slaves cultivated Me long before I took the initiative to cultivate slaves. And before I did that, I went through the same training I put them through, expressly because I valued that perspective, and needed to understand it through personal experience as best I could, and I'm a strong believer in paying your dues. So I did not simply stick a title on Myself, I have earned it.

Yes there were labor slaves, but generally these were more plot devices. Most of the thought process concerning slaves was directed at pleasure slaves of varrying degrees. I do not think any slaves resembled Historical slaves on a detail level that even fractionally approched that of the girls used for sex.

Tarl is made a slave in the silver mines of Tarna - this is mainly adventure fantasy in that although its described, its drama for him to escape.

Men are made slaves by Panther Girls - but this is to point out what Panther Girls are. And that men do not belong as slaves. And its part of the Plot, of course.

dina is a made a farm slave in 'Slave girl' - but this is mainly part of her evolution to becoming a pleasure slave.

Much like Tiffany's experience in Kajira of Gor - she is made a laborer (sewing) slave then rises out of it to be a true pleasure slave that men covet and desire.

Even the discussions of male slavery , much as you have done in your post are pointed out as not being natural. While female slavery and the thought processes are discussed at extreme length.

Indeed the weight of discussions on slavery in the Gorean books is overwhelmingly pointed at the female slave used for pleasure and the Master's role in such a situation.

I guess my point is slavery exists pervasively through the gor books as you stated, but the arguements refering to the phychology of Gorean slavery are most definitely aimed at the pleasure slaves' experience.

Colette, I know that the forums get hijacked all the time, I read them quite often but don't respond, and kinda wish I hadn't responded here in fact. Because this has ended up going from a mild discussion about helping a man find a good place to rp, to a few hardliners pointing fingers, with the moderates dipping and dodging.

I have to admit Prod, you make Gor a little hard to defend by being so hardline, by bringing supposed rl Gor actions into the arguement, and by insulting others. Me defending my fun at this point is a little like a moderate Muslim trying to defend Islam while a fundamentalist is in the water. Extremes of any kind make understanding difficult at best.

To be honest, when I first started SL, I found Gor absolutely abhorent. The idea that a woman's true role was as a slave made me balk. However, the books do create a well defined, and interesting, scheme for rp. I did research, I tried to understand more, and I dove into the rp of it. So called "rl Goreans" still irritate the hell out of me, because I cannot understand how one could possibly see all women as potential slaves, HOWEVER I leave them to their thing. If thats what they like, and everyone consents to it, then fine, have at, have fun, call me "girl" and have a very pissed off woman up your butt. I don't try to change them, I let them have their fun and leave them to it.

I, however, am moderate in my gorean views. I don't think that there is any one true way to interpret the books, and from what I've read and researched, the books themselves don't even agree on some major points. Fantasy books should not be construed as any bible which should not be strayed from at any point. Interpretation is a good thing, and a constant in life. To say that my interpretation, or anothers, is wrong, is silly. Its fantasy. Not a doctrine, not a way of life. Its a fantasy book.

I truely enjoy the roleplay I am part of. And the people who play their chosen roles also thoroughly enjoy the roles that they pick for themselves. If they didn't, they wouldn't be playing. So, how exactly is that so wrong, ye hardliner anti-goreans? Because there is a ficticious, ritualized form of slavery involved? So what? Its consensual, which is exactly what makes it absurd to compare to rl slavery. There are many women who chose to play slaves, because they are naturally submissive, because they like the unfettered sex involved, or for any number of other reasons. However, there are also women who interact in this rp world as panthers, who despise female slaves, who eschew gorean culture so that they may live free of a collar or veils of concealment. They are the anti-culture if you will. They fight men, see themselves as the equals of men, and refuse to kneel to the will of men. There are also women who play in Gor as Free Women. Self controlled, educated, haughty, and concealed because they don't flaunt themselves like the sluts do. They are allowed to speak to men as equals, and they are the natural companion to the Free Man. Also, its to be noted, that in the books, where the slavery was not consentual, Free Women VASTLY outnumbered the female slaves. In the books the slaves are highlighted, however the Free Women were the main portion of the female population of Gor. However, here were we choose what we play, more women choose to play slave. They have CHOSEN these roles as self satisfying. Whether Free, Panther or slave, we have chosen our roles for our own reasons. Who exactly are you to question the decisions I make about the roles I choose?

In the end, it comes down to, if you don't like it, don't come. If you're interested, come see what we have available. Is it exactly from the books? No, not at all. Gor on SL is full of various interpretations. There are even discussions held in sims about how SL Gor is different, and why. There is equally little reason to point at Gor and say "EVIL!" because we incorporate voluntary "slaves" in our culture and rp, as there is reason to point at all the sims, with your nose in the air, and say nothing is exactly as the books put forth.

Relax people. Its all just SecondLife.

~Dream

Interesting comment considering that the bible is actually one of the more entertaining fantasy books ever written.



I agree with you though, the anti Goreans should accept that as long as it's entirely consensual there is A) nothing really wrong with it, and B) nothing they can do about it
and the Gorean hardliners have to stop insulting people who disagree with either Gor in general or with their interpretation of gor since that helps nobody.

Hehe, I really really don't want to get into a discussion about the bible as fiction...
Though...
It would stop the Gor bashing...
Hmm....

How many Second Life forum members does it take to hijack my statement...


We'll find this out and more at 11 O'clock

~The corner of her full cupid's bow mouth flickers with a grin and her sea green eyes glint with mischief as her brows waggle up and down, suggestively "Did I mention I have candy back at the kennel?" ~

*drools for a moment*
Evil girl. Candy is the panther's ultimate weakness...
*laughs*

Historically and contemporarily slavery has been institutionalized under other definitions. And even where it was explicitly called slavery, literature and history is full of accounts of friendships and intimacies between Masters and slaves of either sex, from Greece to America. So while it may not have been as prevalent, or as established on d/s, it's also not fetched far from the precedents.


That's because hetrosexual men, with a few exceptions, just don't thrive in pure submission. You have to admit that the slave boys you have had just aren't satisfying, aren't appealing, and have been more of a burden than a delight. Even My own real life domme, while insisting that I wasn't a real submissive, at least appreciated that handled all demands and discipline with more grace and less complaint than any submissive she'd seen (probably because I know what I expect out of a slave, and if I'm going to do it, I'll do the hell out of it. Besides, it was easy compared to cav scout training in the Army.)

The best examples of male slaves I've seen in SL have been bisexual or homosexual, and they're probably better suited to My current sim, which does encourage the homoerotica of the Beauty series rather than brushing it politely hushed whispers and half-insinuated as the Gor series does.

On the other hand, many more females are drawn to the role, and can shine there, and can be valued. This may be the misogyny that everyone is perceiving, but if there's a battle of the sexes it is one that women can only win by being conquered. This isn't to say that men are entitled that submission, and the virtual goreans who think that their superiority is something they don't have to earn are conveniently overlooking the actions and behaviors that surrounded and modified the words of the supposed doctrine in the books. But I've seen over and over, even among RP'ers and RL leather groups, that a woman who isn't conquered isn't fulfilled.