Gorean Question

Mmm, hmm. I can't help being skeptical, because I've always been greeted politely when attempting to learn from and observe Gorean communities, even while contemptive of them.

Chav, you've made quite a lot of statements that, along with above exchange on the appropriateness of your avatar to the setting, pretty clearly indicate that you don't want to get it because you believe you think you know better, and so you have therefore gone in with your conclusions to be purposely challenging. And naturally people reacted with hostility to that.

How many slaves have you asked, then?

They are waiting for the Goreans, and the Furries to destroy each other, Then they will move in and Take Over.

As to the OP, Just take time, and tour as many of the Gorean Sims as you can. Everyones idea of what constitutes "Pure Gorean Roleplay" differs so each of the Gorean Sims has it's own atmosphere, and it's own Opinions of the Other Gor Sims. Just put on an Observer Tag, and get out there. Meet the people, Guage the environment, and see which one fits your needs Best.

I don't spend time in the Community sims much anymore but For my Personal recomendation, Go to Ko-Ro-Ba, and meet Scar Statosky and his people. His sim is Very well organized.

Angel.

If you express admiration I imagine they're a bit nice. My point really being that compared to every other sim and/or social group they're rude. Where else demands visitor tags on threat of virtual murder? And for all the furbashing one sees I've yet to encounter a Furry sim where I was expected to change my avatar to look more like everyone else. I've visited plenty of RP sims where I was allowed to wander freely looking any way I choose. (And what does it signify that a group so focussed on dominating others demands the rejection of one's chosen appearance?)

These Gorean Sims are not closed to the public, they advertise and they host vendors. Anyone can go in. They are actively soliciting visitors, who they then treat as unworthy to enter. Sims having rules is fair enough. Many locations spam you with a notecard full of sensible rules like "don't shoot people," but upon entering a Gor sim you are instantly treated as a hostile alien. While I mostly disagree with claims of "Gor-as-cult" it does seem a bit odd that this one group should be so xenophobic.





Oh, I started out quite happy to live-and-let-live. But random bans for being in the wrong clothes, threats from guards (guards?! What kind of sim has guards?!) and - oh my favourite - women running away because "de massa" doesn't let them communicate with people... didn't do much to endear them to me.

My avatar is perfectly acceptable in the vast majority of sims. I'm happy to change when in, say, a sexualised area where a child-sized av would be inappropriate. How often are these same avatar-fascists asked to "please put some ****ing clothes on" when wandering about? I'd guess not that often, since most people are polite.

In any case, I don't think it's morally wrong to have some kneejerk reaction against slavert and misogyny, any more than it'd be wrong for someone to feel distressed if they wandered into "Sim Happy Concentration Camp." I've tried as well as you can reasonably expect to get a handle on it. I'd say I've gone further, come to that. You're doing that classic Gorean Ad Hominem where obviously I must be at fault rather than the philosophy. I can't have understood it or I'd see that it's very nice and all about happy bunnies and flowers and isn't at all based on gendered slavery.




They mostly never tell me how they feel. They tell me about someone called "a girl" or "this girl" and frankly I have no idea who that girl is. Quite hard to take seriously the claims of someone who can't work out how to use a personal pronoun.

And... they're not slaves. They're "soccer moms" or quite likely in some cases men playing a game on the internet. They're just common or garden subs. And Stockholm Syndrome is famously difficult to break in any case.

But to anyone who isn't in an online romance with one of them, it's hard to think positively about an impulse that goes "Gee, I really need to completely control another human being, make them depersonalise themselves and submit to me, and talk about them as animals."

For those that might be interested, Gorean M/s life is one of the variations of BDSM life.

All of these variations (Gor, M/s, B/d, S/m, Pony, Dulcet, etc) fall under the umbrella of D/s (Dominance & submission). The Art of Pure D/s stands clear of the predominantly sexual connotations associated with the various forms of BDSM.

There are Groups in SL that emphasize and teach the art of pure D/s, and if anyone is interested, I would be happy to refer them.

This thread has been very enlightening. Since there are so many knowledgeable people on this subject I figured I would ask some questions. I recently visited some Gorean sims in various forms just to see what the hype is about since it is a popular activity in Second Life. My experiences were fairly pleasant. I did this after reading about the Gorean lifestyle in some Wikipedia articles. I didn't know I was supposed to be a normal human creature though. In one sim I was asked to please put on a human form in a very polite way and some lady asked me if I was lost, lol. In another sim I was lagged and somebody told me I had better put on the name tag or I would be banned. Fair enough, I am a shape shifter in world so transforming into a human is not a problem. I put on the name tag and nobody yelled at me for being a Care Bear in that sim. I guess they enforce different rules in different places. I read that the Gorean style is based off of books as stated before in this thread. The Gorean people are from a planet on the other side of the sun and the men are stronger than Earth men. Then, of course there is the slavery.

And now, the moment no one has been waiting for....my questions...lol. What is a panther? Are they hunted by the Goreans? Is this why there is supposedly Gor/Furry conflict? Is the slavery very different from the book vs. Second Life? Do you think they should be a little more lenient of wearing human forms if someone just wants to be a silent observer with no interaction?

Yes, if you suck up to them there are some who will fall right for it, much as any community including yours, but if you have more pride than that and simply express nothing and observe objectively, they'll actually respect you. Imagine that

However if you come in willingly fooled by your own pretense that you're just there to understand while you have your guns loaded with misunderstanding to go off at the first hair-trigger...look, I don't know you Chav, but somehow I wouldn't be surprised by the log of those encounters where you were so mistreated.


I know, they're all big fat meanies and you have no responsibility at all for the perspective you've gathered.


You sure do go on at some length. Didn't your English teacher teach you that brevity is the soul of wit? The rest of what you're revealing as if it's really a revelation is something that many of us have seen over and over, and have learned to clock. Believe it or not, Goreans aren't lacking people skills, and can read the Stockhold Syndrome just as easily have you have been read.

Wow... when i first posted the question I never thought i'd see so much going on in the thread. first to respond to the question about panthers... panthers are girls who do not conform to being free women, or slaves, they feel women are equal to men (tho in the books panthers make amazing slaves when captured ), in SL gor panthers are the women, outlaws are the men in non-stop fighting.

Now some thanks... Prodigal, thanks for mentioning the beauty series, I took my girl to one of the beauty sims to look around since it was actually anne rice's triolgy that got me interested in BDSM originally back before I even really knew what sex was but never really got into it much in SL because mostly people seemed cold, and unfriendly... we wandered around a bit exploring the work done on the sim itself but never had anyone say hello, or met anyone who could show us around a bit more.

Dream, thank you for the offer... it might be one I take you up on along with my girl, I can understand your bias for laura since it is a nice place spent much time there when I was in the dominion, and it was a few of the panthers there who taught me the sword. To have a guided tour of what is available might help us both to find what we seek instead of just randomly teleporting to places.

to everyone else, it really has been interesting to read what this thread has become... it is also nice to see we are not alone in finding SL's gor to be a warped, empty shell of what it should be... but at the same time i'm really starting to doubt if it ever could be the same way.... especially the mention of hospitality, I've known all along that my girl's services should be offered to guests in the fashion of true gor, but as a human being... the idea of that makes my teeth grit (not that i wouldn't if we found a true gorean home... just wouldn't like it) so i can understand why other Masters do not do so either and why things like that are not found within SL gor, even if it's one of the small blocks causing the entire idea to be corrupt from the original.

*cough*Ad hominem*cough*

Maybe I just met a complete ******, or a few of them. I've met a domme who was incredibly polite and let me wander about looking at the builds without any complaint. I've also met a half-naked man who had an attitude problem. The latter appears more common, and is it really so unlikely given the conditioning towards belief in innate superiority?




I'm sorry, could you use Earth logic?





Could you stop insulting me for a moment and address the philosophical issues raised here? Currently you're not doing much to disprove my awful prejudices.

With the exception of the tour guides, members of Bonds won't break character to acknowledge Observers unless they ask questions OOC or engage in RP first. This is because many people are welcome to come touring through in Observer status, and unless one of them takes the initiative in either of those ways, we can't have any way of knowing whether they're interested in getting involved. Observers are a compromise of the immersion, and generally players adapt to it best by investing their attention on who and what exists there in RP.

Chav, I'm saying that your prejudices were and are so dearly held and worn on your sleeve by you that no one is particularly interested in correcting them. While I believe there are obnoxious individuals to be encountered in SL Gor, I also believe you were predisposed to approach them with obnoxious intent.

Chav, the very fact that you considered Prodigal's response an ad hominem attack, proves that you have failed to put forth the effort to familiarize yourself with a culture that you've seen fit to bash.

An ad hominem argument consists of replying to an argument by attacking or appealing to the person making the argument rather than by addressing the substance of the argument. His reply to you actually does address the substance of your argument. You have gone into a counter Earth world that is not friendly to earthlings or strangers; that is part of the culture. Furries DO NOT EXIST in Gor and that is why those who come there dressed as a furry are rejected right away. Furthermore, Gor sims are adult oriented and children or child like avatars are both unwelcome and inappropriate.

As for Goreans doing anything to "endear" themselves to you, again, you miss part of the point. Goreans, whether from the Norman's fiction or those with real life Gorean principles, would not waste a moment of their time trying to "endear" themselves to anyone, let alone an outsider.

So, in simple Earth terms, "Read at least one book to learn about the culture."

Perhaps folks could think of it this way: When you visit a Gorean land, it is like visiting someone else's home. If they asked that you remove your shoes before entering, you can either remove your shoes or not enter. If they posted a large NO SMOKING sign and you trapsed in with a cigarette dangling out of your mouth, why would you be surprised when people treated you hostilely and addressed your contrary behavior?

I find it fascinating how people can go to someone else's "home", start making demands about how they should be treated, complain when the red carpet is not rolled out for them then call the "home owner" rude.

Which doesn't justify goreans wanting to strut their stuff all over the grid as if it's their personal domain....
How do I spell it out for you lot? Gor = misogynist islamofascist throwbacks. You really ought to get into the 21st century sometime.

Goreans, pseudo Goreans, and wanna-be Goreans like anyone else don't need to justify their "wants." They are, however, accountable for their behavior to any who wish to call them on it. Of course, one of the problems about "labels" is that many have it slapped upon them without justification and others wear it without earning it....the outcome being that the casual observer can't make the distinction.

Lemme guess, WallaSan, you are a furry. For the record, WallaSan's post is a fine example of an ad hominem argument. Thanks for sharing.

Is everyone just missing the bit where I did put in the effort and I merely don't like what I see when I examine it? Which is, let's face it, going to happen occasionally with every lifestyle choice, even far less controversial ones.




In which case, why the shock if people react badly to that? "It's my culture" is not licence to escape criticism or simple dislike. An antisocial, hostile culture is of course antisocial and hostile and that's something people don't have to agree with. It's therefore quite reasonable, I feel, to note that hostility as a negative for outsiders. If Goreans don't want to change that then fine, but I don't have to pretend that I don't find it rude and annoying.




It's that Gor sims are abnormally demanding and that doesn't tend to come across very well to everyone. Having looked into it I still don't like the culture and in fact the more I read the more I find it contrary to everything I believe in.

And I don't see why me being opposed to the Gorean "culture" is necessarily obnoxious prejudice. Why is it a prejudice just because I find morally unjustifiable?

Well said, Chav. I grow weary of people who have developed the knack for turning liberal multiculturalism in on itself. One should be open-minded, tolerant and accepting of other cultures but it's perfectly rational and acceptable to be intolerant of intolerance, bigotry and injustice in other cultures.

Have to agree with Chav and Alazarin on this one.

I've only encountered three things that I find really offensive on SL: an Alice in Wonderland Avi with distended genitals and tears, a skin with huge bruises, rope marks and cuts for a female avi and Gor.

There was never one Gor thing specifically that made me react badly - just Gor in general. This latter was not a knee-jerk reaction as with the first two. I approached Gor with open curiousity. I read a bit about it (not the books), but also read many posts in here "defending" or "supporting" Gor. Those posts were the clincher for me. I employ a great deal of self-censorship and diplomacy when I say that I have chosen not to have anything to do with Gor.

So Gor for the Goreans - not for me thanks.

Does this make me intolerant? No just discerning. Intolerance would have me cry for the removal of such things from SL.

Have I made assumptions? And viewed things "out of context"? Well of course. I have seen enough to know that I don't like it. I don't need to eat the whole dish to know that the meat is rancid.

I don't think that the human race can really say /what/ is natural anymore.

Of course, it's perfectly "natural" to die at thirty of easily-cured bacterial infections, but in the western world (where most Goreans I've run into come from, no less), that's extremely rare.

As for the whole "sexual denial" thing... some Dommes do do it out of a dislike for intimacy/sexual contact with their boys. Sure. Not even going to deny that.

But what is the current state of Western society? Most women who are sexually free at all will be called by derogatory names and shamed for enjoying sex, while men enjoy freedom without being slandered for it.

Most male het dominants I know work at breaking down the shame barriers for their female submissives as a way to bring it home that their bodies are no longer their own, as are their choices. If I recall correctly, that's fairly typical in Gor, too.

But when you consider that men don't have the same social construct as women in which they have to function when it comes to sex, it makes more sense that denial will be the name of the game, at least at first, to bring home that /very same lesson/ about the submissive's loss of free choice.

Make more sense now?

Coyote
r/l Owner of her boy for going on 5 years.

My take on this (and I realize nobody asked but I'll tell you anyway) is that Gor is absolutely hypocritical in the fact that if this were real life slavery then people would be screaming for someone to free these women and do something to teach these people how harmful and bad their culture is however without getting into rl vs sl ethics, morals, and actions and even acknowledging that people use SL to "be different" and express their hidden desires whether it be to be a furry, to be dominant, etc... but even Gor is a stretch in that as at least in my scale it is one rung above ageplay on the 1/10 scale with 1 being perfectly normal and 10 being MY EYES, THEY BURN!!!! and for those who haven't already made the assumption, ageplay would be a 10 on my scale.

While I agree fully that Gor is not for everyone, I've found mostly goreans stay to themselves, they don't go around trying to recruit new people, they don't force there opinions upon others, in most cases they are just like everyone else the moment they step off the gorean sims... They do not hate furrys, or young AVI's, it is just not in the roleplay so they don't wish it around... this would be like wearing a mecha AVI into elven lands, people are going to complain about it. Is the gorean lifestyle right? no one can answer that except each person themselves once they look at it, ask any of the slave girls and they will say yes, ask any Master they will say yes... ask them if tentacle worship, ageplay, anthroplay, yiffing etc etc is the right lifestyle they will say no, but they will not bash it, try to change it, or cry out loud about how harmful it is... so why do others do it to goreans? In all my time in online worlds i've found people are tolerant to pretty much anything that could be considered offensive, except for slavery.... bring it up and most certainitly there is going to be fighting going on between those who beleive in it, those strongly against it, and those who could care less. Live and let live, let people enjoy there lives how they wish... we only live once after all and it's to short to worry about how others enjoy there time.

With this, you're simply being foolish. In fact, it takes a great deal of attention and effort, at first, to remember always to address oneself in the third person and to do so in a coherent, consistent manner. This girl would imagine it takes far more effort and awareness of proper grammar than it would have for you to add a comma to your second sentence in the above-quoted paragraph, thereby making it no longer a run-on sentence.

No, I was making a cheap joke about one of the Gorean depersonalisation and dehumanisation of the slave.




Bad grammar is one of the priveleges of the free, babe.

We all have something that we find so offensive or morally reprehensible that we can't ignore it. Criticism and argument are the consequences of free speech, no?

Well, why don't we look at that?

According to Dictionary.com, "dehumanisation" is defined as "the act of degrading people with respect to their best qualities." Further, "degrade" is defined as "to lower in dignity or estimation; bring into contempt" (or, in any case, that is the first of several listed definitions). "Dignity," it turns out, is "bearing, conduct, or speech indicative of self-respect or appreciation of the formality or gravity of an occasion or situation" (again, first definition), while "estimation" is "judgment or opinion" (first definition) and "esteem; respect" (second definition).

Here this girl will have to beg your forgiveness for the excess of dictionary definitions, but she has long believed that defining precisely what is meant is terribly important. Otherwise, what do we have but fancy words that could mean anything?

So it would be your contention that in using the third person to refer to herself, this girl is essentially party to an act of lowering herself in self-respect and/or judgement, opinion, esteem and respect (of others, presumably), and of bringing herself into contempt, with respect to her best qualities. Right?

It's easy enough to assert that you're partially correct with respect to the "judgement, opinion, esteem and respect" of others, as after all, were that not the case, we wouldn't be discussing this to begin with. Of course, the astute person will note that, as the old saying goes, "you can't satisy everyone," and if being viewed by some individual as undeserving of esteem is the sole criterion for dehumanisation, then it would seem everyone in the world is being dehumanised.

It becomes more difficult when we arrive at self-respect. You will probably assert that this girl is, by definition, showing a lack of self-respect. She will disagree and insist that she is demonstrating a lack of self-ownership but not of self-respect, which, she will argue, is an entirely different matter.

Finally, there's the question of what is meant, or what should be meant, by "best qualities." Could loyalty be a "best quality"? Could devotion or patience? What about honesty, consistency, modesty or attentiveness?

Maybe it's at least worth considering?

You will never find a sim that is much like the books. You're looking for something that doesnt exist. It's fantasy, doh!

Eh, I think you missed two important points in your own quotes and mine. One was predisposition worn on your sleeve and the other was the hostile reaction. Common sense would would've already had them naturally linked before your first posting, and therefore not given you the grounds to have whined for this long.

However, if you really did go in with an objective mindset in spite of your own critiques, as I had done long ago, and gotten into the experience firsthand, you might have walked away with some new insights.

But your pre and post attitudes pretty much show that you don't really want new insights, you just want your preconceptions confirmed. So just how much effort do you think you're worth? I don't even think you got the genial clue dropped by your friend in a previous post in this same thread.

Also, your debate is answerable with revelations that were hard won on My part. I won't necessarily use them to win an argument with you, because that would be giving you something you didn't earn and won't value. If you aren't willing to show the personal discipline to approach it on it's own terms and keep your kneejerking in check long enough to make an objective survey, then you surely don't deserve to be satisfied with the answers you pretend to be seeking. And instead of a clean and logical engagement, all you really deserve is this: "Suck it up, it'll outlive you anyway."