Gorean Question

Interesting -

I dont think more people would actually want to take part in it. Since its already extremely popular on SL.

What I do think is a lot who participate now would quit for ethical disagrements with the author.

The ones who stayed would definitely be more "gorean" and appreciate the RP community more. Thus as a RP community it would be stronger.


*Some examples* -

-Homosexuality -

Panther girls in the books are not lesbians or even bisexual - On SL gor (in most cases) they act like bi/lesbian amazon communities.

Freewomen in SL Gor have female Tower slaves for sexual purposes. In the books of course they dont, "in every free woman there is a slave" , in other words they long to be dominated by men, their natural Masters.

Basically - Norman goes to extended lengths to point out that a womans place is at the feet of a man. Not another woman.

SO obviously those prefering SL lesbian relationships wouldnt agree with this aspect of the books.

-Being a slave girl -

If a lot of slave girls in SL gor read the books with female protagonists they would realize being a Kajira isnt the same thing as being one of their Master's girlfreinds or wives. Which is how many act. Many would strongly object to the removal of any choice in their sexual partners.

Many would also disagree with Normans attitude that women, who naturally should be slaves will become sexually aroused by any man. In the books theres numerous examples of Kajira who find a certain man basically repugnant , quite quickly desiring him anyway becuase thats how slaves are.

Many would be shocked to learn how many sexual partners some of the slave girls have. In "Slave Girl of Gor" dina literally has dozens.

While this might attract some Women to want to be Kajirae it would put off a lot who already are RP Kajirae in SL.


-Books Gor vs Online D/S-

In the books , slave very rarely top their Masters from the bottom. Very few slaves would even want to its Normans assertion after all that being a slave is natural for the woman. The added fact that she is required to be 100% submissive to any man who she meets addtional make such difficult.

In online D/S a lot of women "submissives" who participate are basically in charge - reguardless of whatever Power transfer she has claimed to agree to.

Even those who are submissive want to be able to say No if they have to - theres of course no provission for this in Gor. Why would their be its a completely different society where women are chattel

Basically I think a lot of online submissives who actually studied the slaves roles in the books would come to the conclusion they cant "live" that way.

If only for the simple reason that many otherwise "good subbies' simply cant bring themselves to be submissive to anyone except their Master and a select few of respected dom/dommes.


-Hospitality-
Hehe heres one aspect that definitely is rarely lived out in SL gor. In the gor books Slave girls sexual favors are offered as Hospitality often, even ones that are not normally for general use. ("restricted" in SL gor lingo) In fact when a girl is NOT availble to a guest during an offer it is often something to be noted.

I highly doubt many SL Goreans would be accomidating of this aspect of the gorean books.

Indeed many make their slave roleplay out being a virgin again .. (so that hes the only man whose ever touched her?) =p

******
-Now I dont know if Im bashing Gor or not.
I so personally think a lot of the things Norman claims about men and women's natures are false.
I dont really object to the Online Role Play of slaves and Masters etc.

People reading the books are obviously preferable to those who dont - simply becuase of the fact that they know what it is they are Role Playing and can decide for themselves how they feel about the social commentary Norman makes.

Outside of the books, there is a lot of well-written and interesting documentation, that you can easily find. Luther scrolls (Google to find them) or some very well-done sites (none of mine ::winks:: ). Of course, like in everything, your are allowed to use your intelligence and imagination, even in the strict frame of the books.

I confess to being one of those who haven't read the books. I skimmed several of them years ago, after discovering Gor in ActiveWorlds, but just couldn't handle the writing style. And I think I'm being generous in calling it writing.

But as a would-be dancer in RL, seeing the kajirae on the other side of the online bdsm fence was just too much of a temptation not to try to learn more. Fortunately, there are tons of online resources that only expose you to Norman's prose in small doses. *g* And the more I learned, the more attractive Gor became. I could never be a lifestyle Gorean, because although there's a lot to commend the culture (that tends to get ignored by people who think it's all about the sexplay), the natural-gender-differences is a philosophical showstopper for me. But SL isn't real life for me, and I'm quite happy to play in character within that culture.

Actually, I started looking seriously at SL Gor because the community seemed, on the surface at least, so much more cohesive and well-developed than the medieval community, which seems rather scattershot and fragmented. So it's a disappointment to learn Gor has its own problems, but also makes me feel better about the medieval community (or lack of same).

On the other hand, I've lately seen several Gorean classes in the public events listing that weren't offered a couple months ago. Maybe with a determined effort things can be turned around?

And no worries, Hedda. I think most of us understood that it was a joke.

I suspect that myself, actually. I went to a scribery* to pick up some writings since Goreans always tell me that whatever I dislike is "not in the books." And I did have more than a few moments where I wondered how any ethical human being could look at this stuff and not run screaming.




Indeed, a "true" Gorean freewoman is just a slave waiting to be captured. They can't dress as they please without risk of rape, kidnap and enslavement. They can't travel freely and alone (same reasons). They can't, seemingly, enjoy any sort of sexual freedom. If anything the Freewomen are what most demonstrate the misogyny of Gor, as their freedom is basically a joke.




When you get right down to, one cannot be a slave in SL. There is, after all, always the option to teleport. That power may be what makes the slave role in SL Gor so appealing, as these women do not in fact have to deal with the realities of slavery like the constant threat of rape and mutilation. It's a romanticised version of something that really is the worst that humanity is capable of. It's taken me a while to accept that it's not wrong to have a negative response to the glorification of slavery.

SL Gor stops at the sim borders. One can certainly carry on with the routine outside of that, but no one in a non-Gor sim is actually going to treat a slave as a slave. These are not slaves. That's a very important fact that really does make the whole thing little more than a highly-organised BDSM fantasy. Which there's nothing wrong with, if that's your thing.





Sorry, I'm just very amused by the idea of SL Gorean dominants being in any way hospitable to strangers. Oh, the lols!




*Footnote: The scribery visit included a meeting with a hilariously rude man who demanded that I walk across half a sim on foot to read a sign that hadn't rezzed when I arrived. Even though he could have told me exactly what it said. As if the novel-length rule-spam on arrival weren't enough. Tell me again about how Goreans respect people?

Griefers do don cheap/free furry avs when they go on raids. I've seen it happen. They usually do it either to try to be stealthy, or to cause extra aggrivation by going somewhere they're not supposed to be.

Correction, it's 'popular' with people who don't get Gor, which is why it's becoming unpopular with people who actually appreciate it.

Not only are the ethical dilemnas addressed in the context of the books and by example, ethical questions are raised concerning the culture you yourself grew up with and may or may not have ever questioned. And some will kneejerk away before they get through the logic, and the real principle behind 'ethical' objections to Gorean culture are so often based on personal security rather than right and wrong.


Not much to object to, esp since those slaves and Masters were drawn to the role in the first place. I object more to them not putting their conviction in it, and trying to waffle on what the roles mean. And whatever Norman claims in the Gorean doctrine of male superiority, the action shows again and again that superiority goes to the ones who DEMONSTRATE it by accepting challenge and improving themselves, and not the ones who simply arrogate it as a birthright. The man who stops being superior becomes a slave; Gor is still a meritocracy, after all.

I'll agree with that. They've made the effort, they've gotten the feel for the world and society of Gor, and even if they, like Tarl, have their own objections and critiques, they can, like Tarl, still make worthy Goreans.

This means that you're getting a lot of snippets of trivia out of context.

Too bad you couldn't get that in context. The irony of Gorean culture is that Freewomen just aren't free, though they do get to strut around and overvalue themselves. It's the slave who is liberated in her bondage and sexual cultivation, unless they get a wanna-be 'Master' who's using their position to cover up their personal terror of slave heat, then they may be 'liberated' in being a sterile princess lapslut, or simply told not to move, not to talk, not to express.

Well, if you bumble around foreign cultures in a daze of assumptions, you'd probably get the same 'hospitality' in RL. Sometimes when you're someplace alien without an ally to guide you, it may help you more to shut up and observe rather than pissing everyone off and then blaming them for it.

an interesting distinction , certainly, though it doesnt make my statement "incorrect". SL gor is very popular, even if its driving away some of those those that appreciate it.



Well this is true. Norman contrasts modern western culture with his fictional Gorean culture at extreme length. Usually the narrator comes arround to the Gorean way of thinking even if at first he or she didnt like it. Both Earth Men and Women end up deciding Gorean ways are best. This includes the women who are Enslaved. Which though I find far fetched it is part of Norman's premise.

Now just becuase hes willing to question our ethics and sexual politics doesnt make him RIGHT. That is one of the potential pitfalls in reading any work about ethics and philosophy - that you are swayed by the authors logic .

One of the cornorstones of Logic and Philoophy is the claim untrained do not even know how to argue. SO it follows that the untrained do not pick up on the nuances of the arguments Norman makes. The man is a Philosophy Professor after all.

Simply disagreeing with the status quo and proposing an alternate doesnt make someone right .. or wrong .. necesarily.



Tarl ends up being a pretty strict suporter of Gorean way - even fairly early in the series - Certainly by the time he travels to the far north to face the Kur hes lost all of his earlier softness towards women being slaves and their "proper place".

Now theres a definite distinction between what you can live with as Role Play and what you cant. Some can accept the attitudes presented in the books even if they dont agree with it all in the name of Role Play. Others really cant.



Well, actually, I can object to anything I choose - Many do object to D/S , BDSM and Gor - Many find the subjigation on Women even when its voluntary as deeply offensive.

As to the meritocracy idea - the Gorean idea of superior differs quite a bit from most peoples in Modern Western Society. And although Men do end up Enslaved Norman's contention is that Men do not natural belong as slaves, wheras Women do.

I however beleive people should be allowed to participate in D/S BDSM and even Gor online. As long as its all voluntary.

How did your, uh, traditional AVI go over with that gang, Chav?

H.

Heh in the books theres very few wanna be Masters - another underlying principle is a slave should be responsive to any man. Just some Men are more desireable than others (the Bold ones Like Tarl/Bosk and Rask of Treve, etc)

In SL of course theres plenty of wnna bes- That was part of why I find the hospitality part so ironic in SL. =p


Now of course the slavery in the gor books isnt the slavery as it existed IRL - actual women who are enslaved in real life (no i dont mean D/S volunteers) do not respond like they do in the Gor books

This distinction many Gor Adherants and Gor Detractors both miss.

The Slavery in the gor books is more along the lines of D/S notion of transferance of Power and embracing of sexuality sets the submissive free.

Than actual human slavery as it existed on Earth.


Chav is correct that many people gloss over any of the negative statements of the books. In fact one of the most common things youll hear mentioned if "Gor isnt about sex"

When undoubtably it is.

The Free women arent free, but sexually liberated (and subserviant to Men) slave girls are - concept is pervasive throughout.

What is there that people find popular is only Gorean in name, and could easily be replaced by any other hot new distraction.

I didn't say it was right, or that it or I NEEDED to be right...only that it's affirmed over and over in human nature and a society that still defeats both it's biological purpose and it's own progressive agenda. And so there are the perceptual tools you are bringing to the table, and so those should be examined before using them to examine another.

Also, I do have my own critique of Gorean culture, but I wasn't going to involve them here because I'd hoped to avoid the rambling posts going on here now. But my own critiques don't stop me from enjoying what is there of value.


I don't think anyone ever argued the issue of whether participation is allowable, and if they did, they wouldn't get far. And it's all just as naturally voluntary as entering a private sim and agreeing to the terms of participation there. Anyone can leave when they like, and make room for those who take their fun seriously.

I find it absolutely absurd that people would ever get involved in Gor while denying the erotic nature of the Master-slave dynamics...and even more absurd that they could think such cultural institutions could be founded without a healthy and energetic libido unfettered by contemporary neuroses. These are the same people who think that females are demeaned by sexual expression.

It's pretty pervasive throughout RL, too. In BDSM, there are far more females in submission than dominance, and those Dommes more often take pleasure in sexual denial than sexual satisfaction, and brag about it. Is this a natural order?

I've known one very rare exception to that rule, a domme who actually worked with John Norman, and defended him very passionately whenever I bashed him. And she'll admit too that a woman's natural place is in submission to the male, and even though the majority of submissive men is greater than they will admit, with rare exceptions men tend to make very poor slaves.

Delayed reply but Ahahahaha! XD

It seems to me that there are arguements here going on between "lifestyle" goreans and "roleplay" goreans, which are two different breeds entirely. I am a highly active gorean roleplayer, and I try very very hard to stick closely to my role as a panther girl. I don't go pvping all the time, I mostly stay in camp or go "hunting" with my tribemates. I haven't read the books through, mostly because they were the worst sci-fi I've ever bothered attempting to read, but I make every effort to learn from essays, online resources, and even talking at length with people who have read them (god bless their poor souls). I try very very hard to stick to my role, and help others stick to their roles as well. That said, I don't buy into alot of the philosophies of Gor. The basic martial society I can appreciate. However the whole men are biologically superior to women thing can kiss my butt, lol. Thing is, I don't \have\ to buy any of it in order to rp with my role. And yes, I have been a freewoman and a slave, so I'm not just speaking from my outlaw, kick ass role. Sometimes, having to rp something you don't believe, and still doing it realistically, is a great brain workout, like debating on a side you don't believe in. I love my community, and I love how tight we are oocly. And I love that icly we mostly stick to our chosen roles.
Now, to address the original poster, are you really looking for an rp environment, or a lifestyler environment? That'll make a big difference. I've been to nearly all the current Gorean sims, and have "lived" both on a lifestyler one and now an rp sim. You also have to think about the environment you want. Do you want to live in a city, or out in an outpost? Cities tend to be more well developed, and mostly the pvp action is in an arena. If you want a bit more action then seek out an Outpost. There you have smaller communities, with woods outside. Panthers and Outlaws tend to be a common sight. If you'd like to talk more about the various sims, feel free to IM me. As an admin of Laura, I'm of course a little prejudiced, but I'm honest, and I'll even give you a tour of other places if you don't like my home. I love rping on Gorean sims, and I like helping others find their niche.
OH, and on slaves, blame the current overpopulation of restricted princess slaves on the supposed masters. The girls want a boyfriend, and the masters don't teach them different. It irritates the hell out of me.

~Dream Resistance

One of the problems of using another fantasy series as a guide is that most are rather heavy on the magic and alternate races (trolls, orc etc). If you are participating in a RP sim, with the combat system in place on sl, throwing magic into the mix would be an absolute mess.

The gorean setting is human only, and with just basic weapons available, it lends itself more to the combat systems in place. I can't speak for the lifestyle sims, but the RP sims seem to use the books as a general guide only, it allows some common ground between all the differant sims. If there was another fantasy series that had the depth of places and customs which RP'ers desire (slaves, masters. fighters, panthers etc) it might be used as a alternative to gor, however I am unaware of any other work that would fit the bill.

The problem I have with 'lifestyler' Gorean sims is that they tend to draw a lot of ppl who make claims about 'being real' who never need provide evidence of engaging in Gorean practices or living up to Gorean principles. They simply sit around spouting the rhetoric, like the RP Goreans. And because they hold themselves above the 'RP' Gor, they deny themselves the opportunity this virtual platform gives them to actually BE Gorean in a way that RL does not permit, and actually put those principles into practice.

I don't make any special distinction between the two, though many like to belabor such a distinction.

My sim, Bonds of Beauty, is based on the Beauty series written by Anne Rice/Roquelare and the original folklore. Magic and fantasy creatures are rare and limited, and must be based on the original folklore. I wouldn't bill this as an alternative to Gor, because SL Gor is already that.

Youre not seing my point, gor provides a baseline for multiple sims hosting a Medieval world. It gives all these sims common ground to interact with each other, and allows the players to live and rp within a general set of guidlines. Take the magic and alternate races out of, and add the slaves in, and any of these sims could be based on any fantasy series.

Lifestyle sims however to my knowledge is based soley upon the master/slave relationship. There is no pvp, and they don't interact with the rp sims, so yes I see a great differance.

It's not medieval, it's Greco-Roman. And you're right, any conjured world could provide the same things that people seem to be using it for anyway. Why co-opt the setting and throw out everything of value?

Bonds of Beauty IS such a medieval fantasy sim, btw.

I am dreadfully new. What books?

I guess while I would like to say that I don't onject to gorean roleplay between consenting adults, I really do. I guess for me, I react to John Norman pretty much the same way I react to Adolf Hitler (yes I know there is some stupid internet maxim that just got satisfied). I am sure all the arguments about Norman being a misunderstood philopsher also applied to Hitler. Fortrunatley, Norman never was interested in running for office on the "Men are the Master Race Ticket.

I am sorry to those who are committed to this, but its difficult for me to say any glorification of dominat slavery, al a Gor, as anything but offensive.

Victoria, I think there are RP sims out there that are effectively managing to mix magic and combat. Port Luskan for one. I think a greater community of RP sims would be great. Right now it is kind of hit and miss finding one that suits you.

Sorry didn't mean to get off the topic. I hadn't realized how far from the books the SL Gor sims are. There are several factors of Gor that I have found very intiquing like the lovely ritualistic service slaves perform. There are aspects I would like to indulge but I had not let myself because I respected the Gorean RPers. I am a submissive but could not bring myself to submit to someone I don't respect. I could not accept the complete lack of rights of a slave. Good luck to the original poster in finding the purer Gorean Sims he seeks.. but maybe someone could point my way to some of the less pure Gorean Sims. I might be able to visit them respectfully. *grin*

pfft... Furries for t3h win

Three of them came to stare at me and one made a comment implying the hilarity of my height.

Oddly, I was not too hurt by such insults from a woman wearing a strip of see-through cloth.

Yeah, I had to make effort earlier on not to mention that Gorean philosophy reminds me quite a bit of Mein Kampf.

...which is exactly what's always said. Even I could bothered to track down these out-of-print books and pay money for them, it wouldn't be enough, would it? I'd have "read it wrong."

And so what, exactly, is the non-offensive context for something like:

"Surely it is better to have a true man on any terms than to have half a man or no man at all! Men are masters; if the man be strong, the woman must submit. given the opportunity to relate to a true man, few woman will settle for less. Indeed, true women, in the belly of them, desire to submit to true men. It is an ancient instinct bred into the bellies of beautiful, feminine women."





Yes, I know perfectly well that Gorean logic believes that women are to base and inhuman that treating them as objects make them happy. In this, well, sorry but my point stands. To treat free and independent women as an abominable concept is to hate women. It justifies, glorifies, romanticises the horror of slavery and inhumane societies through slippery wordplay. I might just as well say that a man is only truly free if he wears orange socks, for all that the words prove anything.

The true irony being that were this lack of respect for women and the value of freedom shown as wrong-headed hypocrisy it'd edge out of immoral and into genuine critique.




Interesting. I usually try that. In fact I was happily wandering about when I got yelled at. I have had one positive (i.e. lacking in hostility or insult) conversation with a Gorean dominant in my entire SL time. And that one was with a woman, who of course isn't being a True Gorean because she's not a slave.

The subs are generally polite, helpful, generous and friendly. Often intelligent and funny. Which may well be conditioned into them by the slavery, but then I would imagine much is the same of the Gorean doms who walk about SL like they're the master-race expecting that they can get away with ordering people about in a non-Gor sim and expecting no one to mind. I'd say symptomatic of this is the insane weight of rules forced upon visitors to Gorean sims (for which visits there are many legitimate non-RP reasons) and the aggressive, arrogant manner in which these demands are expressed.

There really is only so much one can say positively about someone who wants to own another human being.