New Zindra Blog Post

I am not complaing Lias I am saying I dont want to be represented by a group that takes it on themselves for whatever reason to be the voice of all residents in Zindra, we have our land we will buy more, we do what we want on it, if we have a problem we contanct linden labs that is the way it has always worked and will, you misunderstand in thinking that I am complaining about what the group does or does not do, I am saying that they cannot declare themselves the voice of all Zindra residents, however much they like the idea and I am sure as hell that is not what linden have done either, i have not recieved notifuication that I have to go through your group to voice my opinions and have no plans to do so, like I said democratic societies have free speech

But you do realize that Blondin Linden makes changes to the continent of Zindra based on the one hour meeting he has been having with this group each week, yes?

Sorry you didn't get the memo - but this also how Bay City is run. It is best to keep abreast of this group's activities so you know what is being done to you.

Well, so everyone is on the same page.. The Zindra Alliance is open to ALL Zindra landowners. The ZA is meeting with Blondin every Monday, taking to him the concerns that we see here, and elsewhere regarding things that need to be/have not been done, Things that have been discussed at numerous office hours, forum posts, meetings etc. While we do not claim to speak for everyone (that is a fallacy that certain people seem to like to spout, as if we have a conspiracy going on), we are all adult content providers, and making sure that this is as painless as possible for everyone involved is the primary reasoning. So far, simply based on the fact that a few of us agreed that LL should swap the name of an empty LINDEN owned sim, for the empty LINDEN owned water sim NAMED Zindra, so that people that SEARCHED for the *mystical ~ZINDRA~* didn't land in the ocean, but rather on dry ground (which LL did btw, they finally score 1 point for doing SOMETHING right!) is grounds to accuse the officers of the ZA of having some *personal* motivation/agenda.

All that aside we DO have a primary purpose. The meetings that have thus far been held with Blondin regarding this have been mostly a clusterf*ck of people talking around and over each other, all intent to get answers for similar questions, yet providing Blondin enough room to not really get nailed down on anything concrete. (which really isn't his fault, seems he knows as well as we do that left hand and right hand don't speak at LL).
The idea was if we all (or as many as we can) get together and see what the most IMPORTANT things were... The now-non-mandatory 1.23 viewer (which btw, is the only viewer that supports *ADULT* ratings meaning all Zindra businesses are now hidden in search while all non-moved and private island people are on mature land are still IN search, business as normal while WE ALL got shuffled around, forced to moved, and hidden under another layer... that's MAJOR, for EVERYONE on Zindra, not one or two of us.) Pushing for when tickets will get done, auctions to start, when will EVERYONE in SL be made aware of these changes, and forced to compliance like WE have been, When will Private Estates be forced to clean up or flag adult.. these are all VERY important issues that affect the community at large. Us banding together and pushing to make sure this happens as quickly as possible, isn't exactly a personal agenda. This is, even for ones that don't realize the full extent yet, impacting ALL Zindra businesses. by coming as close to a common consensus as possible among as many as possible, and all asking the SAME thing, pushing the SAME points, maybe we can finally get the final balls rolling, and get our businesses back to what they were.

Still call it a Personal agenda? You bet. And not just mine. Name one person on the continent of Zindra that can logically say that this is bad. ZA is 188 members so far, and steadily growing.
These things we are trying to do is not so just *my* business will prosper.. if everyone here wants to get ANYWHERE, we can NOT continue the mess LL has made of this. Banding together, and fighting as ONE VOICE, and not fighting with each other, seems the best, most logical way to make sense of this entirely senseless mess.

Everyone has the right to be at the meetings, in the group. The only requirement is owning land in Zindra, or waiting on land in Zindra.

LL is notorious for ignoring the residents suggestions, and ideas, and basically telling us to shut up and play nice, and follow the plan, while failing to disclose the plan or the purpose of it. If they are willing to pay attention to even a small group, that's one step in the right direction. It may not be *perfect* but its something.

Until LL makes a group and invites us all into it, this is what we got.

~Brie

I am sure you are doing agreat job, and I fully understand I can join if I want to the same as any one else, just dont tell me that you are THE only link with linden labs, that you are the voice of Zindra, you are not, you are a group doing a great job I am sure, but you dont speak for everyone, everyone does not share exactly the same views, we are not sheep, and I for one want the right to go and speak to lindens about my concerns if I want, and not be dictated to as to what is going to be done by a group set up by sl individals who then assume it gives them the power to dictate, because they used the name Zindra Alliance as a group name, it was not set up by lindens and I wish you every success, but dont assume that you are talking for everyone please. I think that is a fair comment. You can get as agitated as you like but like I said it is a democratic society and I so far have found Linden capable of dealing with any issues I have

Exactly what will be happening NOW that Gavin agreed to have these agenda development meetings.
I think the group is open to everyone and that voting on issues should be reserved for people that actually own land in Zindra. That can be arranged by giving land owners their own group tag and checking off the voting option for them only. Since we discuss and make decisions on things that are adult content related and not just Zindra Continent related - I think it would be OK for the lurkers to stay in the group. Especially since it is not an initiative of the group to make a full directory of Zindra residents.
LL setting us up to fail? or LL assuming the people that volunteered t develop this communication group will be fair, community-minded and effective? We shall see.

[QUOTE=Lias Leandros
I think the group is open to everyone and that voting on issues should be reserved for people that actually own land in Zindra. That can be arranged by giving land owners their own group tag and checking off the voting option for them only.

This is what I mean
it sounds to me as if you see yourself as the go between and what will happen is that only people in the group will get to vote??
how democratic is that

Seems to me this needs to be looked into further as I cannot see that you can make these decisions for everyone, if it affects everyone, surely it is Linden labs that shoud be sending out the voting information, maybe you should have an active role in agendas but really to run the votes that is not democratic

That's not what we said. That's not what *I* said. You have every right to do exactly as you please. You have every right to be in the group, or not. No one said be a sheep. No one said you can't speak up on your own. We aren't dictating ANYTHING. The facts stated above about the 1.23 viewer, Adult being hidden in search and all the rest are facts. Everything that's been documented on slapt.me is fact.
and the simple fact is that when i, or you, or anyone on Zindra complains to LL about unfair treatment, it is not just you, or just me, or just jane or just joe affected. its everyone that got shuffled over. When LL marks us as adult, but the exact same type businesses are still running as mature on Private islands, that hinders us all. When the majority of people in SL still have no clue whats going on, and then get hit with it, and the real insanity begins, we are the ones already here. We have been dealing with this for months already. We, and that's you also, since your here on Zindra, all got forced into this, not by choice, but because we followed what LL said.
Everyone has the right to speak up, and have their own opinion. Mine is that they are treating us all unfair. You speaking up to them, on your own or with us, still is another voice adding to it. even if we both are saying it differently, in the end, it still amounts to the same thing.
We can agree to disagree on how LL knows, or hears from us. but the simple fact is, until they level the playing field for us all, we are all getting shafted.

~brie

~~added note.. The vote Lias referred to was over the group, not Zindra in total. The group officers have met to discuss just those things about land owners etc etc, and that's what was referenced there.. reading it back just now i see the confusion. Totally unintentional.

Your preaching to the choir, Soar. You should (if you like) look back to my post #2367 on page 158 in this thread. I questioned the actions of this group also - But then I took action and made some changes that would bring democracy into this mess. We need all the help we can get. I believe splintering our voice may not be as effective as all of coming to the service provider as one standing behind issues that effect us all. That does not stop you from using Live Help for your personal issues at all.

Brie, perhaps you did not mean to indicate that the Zindra Alliance Officers are meeting privately to discuss things that effect everyone - but that is what it seems you have written here. And the Zindra Alliance officers are only you and Gavin. Private, undocumented conversation regarding hot topic agenda items that effect us all should not be discussed in private by the officers. And if they are - the chat needs to be documented and made available to everyone.

When I sent Blondin the request for chairs today - I cc'd you, Jago and Gavin. Communication is the key. ZA Officers participating in closed -door meetings is not creating a sense of representation and community.

As I recall the history, the Alliance never set out to have the responsibilities that have been thrust upon it by LL and by Zindra landowners. I'm not an Alliance officer (and can't make most meetings) so I don't know what may have happened behind the scenes, but it seemed to me that the Alliance was formed for one purpose (promoting Zindra business interests to SL residents and to LL) and is now gradually being tasked with a different one, to *represent* Zindra interests to LL, and it got that different role by default: there wasn't any other pre-existing group to do it.

Personally, I think Zindra Alliance officers should not meet in private with a Linden. Everyone should be able to attend such meetings. On the other hand, I am more than okay with officers meeting just among themselves in private; I'd encourage them to do more of that, in fact, because it will improve their effectiveness.

We're pretty far from having a framework for representative democracy for this purpose, so I'm not very excited about any form of "voting" that can be done right now. I think it really has to be by rough consensus--anything more controversial just is out of scope for the Alliance to promote.

What I'm fussing about is the problem of who even should be allowed to vote in such matters. Personally, I think the least awful formula would be one vote per square meter of land owned. It gets around the alt abuse problem, and makes it explicit that landowners are responsible for representing the interests of their tenants. It's by no means ideal, but one-vote-per-group-member is notoriously subject to gaming. At the moment it's a moot point anyway because there are no tools for doing either of these (Group Proposals still don't work, do they?).

For now, I think a rough consensus, gathered subjectively, is more valid than any alternatives that are actually available.

Gavin just contacted me and said in 3 hours from now I will be kicked out of the Zindra Alliance Group. So now I will get my information from my group members that are members of the Alliance I suppose if this is allowed to happen. I asked him what was the policy and guidelines put in place to remove someone from the open enrollment group. He said he would post that policy in these forums in three hours. And then use these policies immediately to eject me.

Agreed, But how do we define 'rough consensus? is it the majority of those in attendance at a meeting? Then I think folks would get as many like-minded people at a meeting to swing the vote.

There could be a secure Vote Kiosk on the island of Zindra. Have folks register to be able to access it's voting functions. Some procedure would have to be put in place to make sure folks actually have Zindra land before they are approved to use the kiosk. The kiosk could also send a notice when a topic to vote on is available and let them know where ad when the discussion for this vote will be taking place.

Now the vote itself can be more like 'taking the temperature' of the community. There may need to be some 'happy medium compromises' that take place after the voting process - but at least it gives the group an idea of the communities consensus.

And since it could be agreed that the vote results are not the final word - it will not be so important to police the enrollment.

If the kids are divided, they will never be united.

What are you all playing at with this alliance?

Sensitive souls and growing pains.

Thank you, Qie. Your analysis expresses something I've been trying to articulate to myself since all this blew up last week. I'm very clear that I don't see myself representing anyone's views but my own and my business partner's at meetings, and we're equally clear that we don't expect anyone to represent our views for us. And I completely agree that rough consensus is the way to go.
How would this work with group-owned land, though?

The Alliance group was never intended in its current shape and form to be a group that would democratic represent controversial issues to Linden Lab for resolution, but rather, as you say above, an interest group to promote Zindra landowners and their businesses, and be a forum to exchange experiences and opinions for being pioners on adult land.

To go from there to a fair representation vote system, like Lias seems to inferr the group should be, is a longer wash. My personal opinion is that such a system is doable, and I even posted to that extend here about a week ago, but I am not sure the normal SL group mechanisms are the one to be used to make it a reality.

My approach to the Zindra Alliance group has been a pragmatic one, where the weekly meetings has been seen as an immediate stopgap to try and resolve, and move forward issues that has arisen from the move in a dialog with Linden (primarily represented by Blondin.) To my knowledge there has not been any other meetings between the Alliance and Linden Lab - formal or informal. Some of us may speak with LL one-on-one in IM, but that must be acceptable.

Despite the somewhat chaotic nature of the meetings held so far, I don't see an enormous problem with decisions made there and then at the meetings by those present.

Where I live we have had a democratic constitution since 1814, and in very many cases decisions are made by the mechanism "vote by acclamation" which is not regarded as undemocratic or even unfair by any means. I believe what has happened at the Monday meetings are exactly such a process.

That is not to say that there are not instances where a formal vote is required and mandated, but a formal vote also demands a system of fair representation of the voters. There is currently no such system in place, and establishing it; including the required controls, will necessarily take some time and effort.

Lias, on one hand keeps rallying for voting in the group, but at the same time has stacked the group with alts, as she told me she has 15 alts in it "so we can't get rid if her". How democratic is that?

Another issue is of course that the Zinra continent is still being populated, so it is difficult to know who has land there.

... and if the group should be one representing adult content landowner, why limit it to Zindra? Why not include all landowners that must flag adult?

That's sorta the thing: At the moment, I don't see what's so controversial about anything the Alliance has taken on, or is likely to take on.

Do the Bay City and Nautilus City community organizations have so much acrimony? Are they doing stuff that's so controversial that they need a lot of formal structure and process? Or is the problem that their scopes are limited by lack of such structure? I honestly don't know the answer to that--I'm rather hoping that other Alliance members have a better feel for that, having discussed it with those other organizations.

It could well be that I'm not informed enough about the issues to appreciate the problem, or maybe at some level I don't care enough about the details. I mean, whatever flag is selected is great--all the designs are wonderful as far as I'm concerned--I just think it will be good to have one chosen design to help with "branding" the continent. And I'm happy the LDPW Glow has mostly abated and the sidewalk trees aren't all light emitters anymore--but maybe there's a big Pro-Glow contingent out there that got trampled on in the process.

Again I say that the group ia not representing us, and how undemocratic that Lias is being kicked out of the group, is it a case Gavin that shut up and accept what your group decides or dont be part of it, if it represents Zindra as you say then you can't kick people out who have land, they have a right to be heard and to be in the group, even if you don't like what they say. There in lies the issue, if it was a Linden group then it would be open to everyone and the fact you voice an opinion would not get you kicked out.

Like I said before Gavin your group is just another group with no special rights or powers, you run it along the same lines as owners of other groups and can eject at will, if someone upsets you. i don't belong to your group and I am sure for speaking out i would by now have been ejected by you.

Just accept your group like any others can do what it wants and say what it wants to Linden, it just cannot make decisions for anyone else that could affect their business.

I agree there are many things wrong with the move and the way it was caried out, but harping back on them is not the way to get support from Linden, we have to accept it is done and move forward and we all have issues that we want to raise, and we are all adult and sensible enought to articulate them to Linden.

I cannot see the benefit of a group that has so much infighting and power struggles trying to do that for us. So of course in your own way do your bit, but please dont assume that everyone that is not in your group is not to be counted.

I can't speak of the Nautilus Alliance, but for Bay City Alliance, BlueGin (the founder) has primarily wanted the group to operate at the level of events and promotion, and she has been successful at that. Decisions in Bay City Alliance are by and large made by consensus in bi-weekly member meetings.

That is not to say there are issues in Bay City that could easier be resolved by a more structured approach (see my earlier posting on the subject.)

There are some fundamental problems with Bay City that I don't think we will see in Zindra simply because the two areas have been populated in a different manner. Bay City was (and to some extent is) inhabited by land flippers who themselves had no interest in community building, whereas Zindra will more or less be inhabited by business owners who want Zindra to be a success for their own survival.

Bay City has also issues with prominent residents pressing their personal agendas in just about every OH meeting they can go to in what i call a "power-by-bitching-loudest" process.

One area to look at is the Blake Sea regions that have elected representatives interacting with Linden Lab representatives (Blondin most of the time there too.)

The flag is a good point, not one person that is not in the Alliance group or on this forum was im or sent information about the flag, that to is going to be a closed door decision and many artistic people out there never got a chance to get involved, the lighting and trees dont you think that enough people contacted lindens for that to be done anyway, you cannot say that was through the group.

unless they happened to see the announcement at http://www.slapt.me/wiki/index.php/Zindra_Flag_Contest or to be passing the Museum of Sex Furniture or the slapt.me mall I think what Qie was saying -- certainly what I would say -- is not that the group can take credit for getting stuff done about the lights and the glow but this is the sort of issue -- not particularly contentious, to my mind -- about which it's been bugging Blondin, doubtless along with many others.

I have never made that assumption, and I know for a fact that LL would be willing to speak to parallell groups as they do in Blake Seas.

As I said above, my approch has been a pragmatic one to try and get resolution to immediate issues that has arisen from the move to Zindra and to move those forward.

Expelling people from there group for voicing their opinion is not my style. There shall and must be considerable ceiling height in such a group.

But Lias has put forward very serious and unsubstantiated allegations of corruption both on part of the group officers and members, in addition to spreading lies, half truths and calling names like nazi and facits both in public and private. She also infers corruption by the Lindens (as there cannot be corruption unless someone has been corrupted.)

Many people - both regular members and officers - have left the group because of her.

I have on one occurrence told her to hold back on a subject she spoke about in group chat because I needed to check if what she promoted was a violation of the TOS.

I have given Lias the opportunity to put forward a public apology to everyone she has insulted or slandered - an opportunity not taken.

I am not going to discuss the he said, she said, they said side of things, but wanted to share my personal thoughts on all of this. I left the Zindra Alliance because I was starting to see the in fighting going on rights or wrongs or who started what matter not. That was my personal choice and no reflection on any one person, but if the ZA wants to be representative for the public issues on Zindra then it will have to grow and evolve as any other entity would have to. However lets not kid ourselves that LL are really listening and that they really do care as corporate ideals will always come first as they clearly have shown us in all of this mess that they have placed us in.

We at slapt.me have made available space for the Zindra Alliance to post the meeting transcripts in an open forum and as in the spirit of wiki, anyone is able to use it and that will always remain so as far as I am concerned as it has clearly shown to be invaluable for a lot of people during these changes. I hope that this continues for any other big issues that LL throw at us, as slapt.me has shown that we ALL can work together when things like this happen.

The idea of the ZA meeting with Blondin makes a lot of sense to me however they do not speak for me in any matters, unless I bring them to the table. The idea that Blondin will schedule a weekly meeting to hear the problems is a good thing and in so far as getting things changed lets hope that it will work, but getting things changed are to me things like public works etc. I see the ZA as a vehicle for bring various things to the table to discuss with Blondin, however if I and I hope others, have issues that they need to raise, they will attend themselves and ask the questions, just like at any of the Linden Office hours.

The flags for Zindra, well I am very impressed at the flags we are displaying at our sim 'The Churchyard' Yes I agree that there should be a winner overall as in any competition but personally I would love to see after the competition all of the flags on our land set for sale for 0L$ so that anyone can take one and place it on their land, I will be happy to allow them all to stay indefinately for this reason.

Voting on issues important for Zindra overall, well maybe there could be a voting booth or something as Qie suggested and all important Zindra issues could be represented there and people could vote so they could even be prioritised in this instance for discussion. Issues that relate to individual businesses etc. could still be discussed at the meeting just like at any of Blondins meetings by the individuals concerned.

We have the Zindra Times now and wouldn't that be great if some people stepped up and turned that into something worthwhile for Zindra and supported the creators of the newspaper and helped turn it into a newspaper worth reading for all things Zindra. We will support it with advertising and I am sure many other adult businesses would to if asked.

Let us all try to at least support those that are trying to make the public face of Zindra better for us all and turn this into a positive thing rather than a negative thing for everyone as we all move forward. Whilst remembering there are those that will always want to do business with LL on a 1-2-1 basis, so perhaps the ZA could be speaking for all the public issues etc. perhaps. Zindra will only become what we all make it within the LL guidelines thats for sure so lets try and affect positive changes for everyones betterment.

As I said these are just my personal thoughts and opinions in these matters

Wow ...