What ARE Subs/Slaves/Pets exactly?

That is commonly called topping from the bottom. A simple example would be a sub deliberately being "naughty" or disobeying a rule etc... so they will get spanked, chained up, caged, or otherwise punished. Many times a sub might not know they are doing it but they have some need/want/desire for something and they express it this way. And yes there are some that will purposely use it manipulate the top, but this type of person would also do underhanded things in a "normal" relationships. (it's kinda like being passive aggressive)



It's hard to explain to someone who doesn't have Dom/sub mindset. Being told what to wear feels good... feels good in the same way as say getting an unexpected bunch of flowers does.



Really a sub is not "supposed" to behave in anyway at all. Every relationship is as unique as the people involved it in.



A D/s relationship is equal... but each role is very different. It's a yin/yang thing, one can not exist without the other. If you ask most Dominates the last thing they want is some doormat they can step on.



One big difference... in a D/s relationship both people are enjoying it.

Lets say somebody is getting flogged in an abusive situation they would be just be beaten silly with no concern over their welfare. in a D/s situation the Dom is working hard... avoiding places like the spine, neck, kidneys that can cause real harm, constantly keeping an eye on how the sub is doing and on and on.

I don't think that's what they meant. I believe they were referring to the initial choice to submit, to what extent, and the ability to stop the proceedings through the use of safe words.

Ahhh OK.

From my point of view I don't see that really giving the sub the control over the relationship, it's more about establishing compatibility between the people in question.

And safewording really does not give much control over the relationship. In some cases getting the sub to safeword is the whole point of a particular scene.

If a sub safewords all the time (not counting the above example) that really is not a sign that the sub has control, it's just a sign of a basic incompatibility between the people.

The main reasoning behind "the sub is the boss" has always been, I think, that the sub can always leave, and then the dom(me) is alone, so there always has to be some consideration there. On SL, where the dom(me) can be left with a $75 monthly tier bill and several hundred dollars spent on a virtual "dungeon" that will now never be used, it's even worse.

As for the question about imbalance, here's an interesting thing I found. When I first came into SL, I created a group called Magical Mischief which was for RPing cartoonish trickery with magic - a kind of RP I had done once or twice on other sites and liked. It had different roles for the victims and mischief-makers (in other words, it wasn't a fair game like the Wyvernclaw system for instance). Of the people who joined, the people who joined on the "makers" side were a varied mix of people - but 100% of the people who joined as "victims" were BDSM submissives. And it made perfect sense to me after a while - people aren't going to "play along" with an RP of that kind unless there's something in it for them, and since paying them would be kind of pathetic, the alternative is to find people who would (to be blunt) get off on it. (I'm not sure if anything ever actually happened, as I only know one girl who was enough into BDSM to integrate with them, and she actually originally hated BDSM and got into it _for that reason_.)

So, I wonder if that's happened with other things too - people trying to become dommes in order to get others to integrate with their role-play to avoid having to work out how to make it balanced.

When my Master and i were dicussing a particular conversation I had, i asked if he could see the other peoples part of the conversation, he told me no, only mine. In order for him to read mine, i had to agree one time via a pop up box when the scripts were first added to it. So this is consentual on my part. I don't consider it spying because i know full well that it is happening and have agreed to it. In our relationship, we see it as a way to be connected to each other even when we can't be together. As i said in a previous post, i have nothing to hide from my Master. Even when he is not with me, he is right beside me in my heart and mind and I behave accordingly.

You should be more worried about non-bdsm listening devices that are in spy gadgets. I'm sure the motives behind the use of them is far more devious.

Here is a perspective to hopefully make you think

There are people in SL whom we well know like to roleplay being a child in a family. It gives them things they missed in life as a child, perhaps a sense of a security , a sense of belonging, feelings of being cared for, cherished and loved. They voluntarily give up their responsibilities to the "parent" and defer to them on certain decisions such as when to do things the "parent" wishes. This is a like being in a real family for them, it gives them pleasure and fulfillment.

What has this got to do with slaves/submissives?

Well they also crave almost all of the above for the most part but do not want to live their SL as a child. Instead they wish to have these things as an adult. The Dom(s)/Domme(s) becomes the parent(s) and if there is more than one sub/slave it becomes more like a family. In fact in some circumstances there is no sex involved between the family members at all.

Obviously there are a large group of people who are in it just for the sex and are not really seeking the above. Just as with all cross sections of life there is a wide variety that get brought under the same labels. However for some people roleplaying a child in a family or a sub in a family of subs are not very much different.

Just something to ponder

Your friend is not getting any response because he is asking the wrong question, You cant just put a blanket i want a sub/slave/pet out there and get a good response. The Dom/sub relationship is based on a lot of trust and on love. a sub has to trust that what ever master they chose will take care of them, provide for them both body and mind. that is what a master does for a sub. a sub is not a mindless drone that you can walk all over, any master that does is a poser and is just in it for the kink. bdsm and other sex kinks are all most always interchanged with a Dom/sub relationship but this is not true. a true Dom/sub relationship is about the sub giving over all control the the Dom and the Dom treating that gift of submission in a loving caring way. It can be a dangerous world though, More so in RL then in SL but the danger is there. A sub is often also called a pet, a slave is usually called a slave, the dynamics are a bit diffrent but the one thing that is constant is the sub/slave has giving over that power freely to the Dom.

Any Master that degrades there sub in public or private is a fake and is clueless. I have at times had my sub on a leash in public, it was not to degrade her, or make her look bad, it was about her feeling that connection with me, Knowing that i was there, looking after her protecting her taking care of her. Never once have i ever treated my sub in a bad way and no decent master ever would.

The collar is a symbol, think of it like a wedding ring, The collar is usually hand made by the Dom as a gift to his sub with the lock and key being provided by the sub and the key being given to the Dom as a sign of submission. A leash when used is to provide a link between the Dom and the Sub that they are connected with each other.

Gabriele this post is the one that has explained it the best for me. It actually makes some sort of sense now. Thankyou.

If it were not for the wink, I would say absolute nonsense Now I just say nonsense.

Now I cannot relate very well to SL, since I do not live out a D/s relationship in SL, but I can very well relate to it RL. For those in this thread who have difficulties with people making this kind of choices, some explanation might be useful.

To step into a D/s relationship, the submissive makes a choice. A choice to be an equal person in an unequal relationship. Which is about the best way to describe a D/s relationship.

Now it gets kind of tricky, because no 2 couples will be the same. Therefore I will just give my view about things, and how they work in my relationship. How others live it, and how they live it out in SL, can be quite different.

In my case, my partner chose for a life where I am the leading person. Meaning that my will is her law. Topping from the bottom, ie her being boss in any way, is out of the question. Her right to say no, has been given away. Saying no to me, is saying no to our relationship. Simply because our relationship has been built on these values.

Now the above sounds like I have absolute power and can do as I please, and that is where many D's (Dominants) go wrong. My main responsibility is that she is happy. Her happiness is my happiness after all. This doesn't mean I don't make it very hard for her at times, but it does mean that in the big picture I will have to take her "wishes" into consideration. To clarify that a bit:
- If I tell her to do something she finds very difficult, she has no choice then to do it. She might put up some fight, but in the end she will do it. These moments are very important, as they confirm my dominance and her submissiveness.
- If I always make her do things she finds difficult, and for the rest I watch footballgames, she will, no matter how long it takes, eventually leave me. Because she sacrifies herself for me, and does not get anything in return.

Taking that into consideration, me being the dominant means I have the responisbility to make 2 people happy. I was given a lot of power, but as soon as I start abusing that power, the relationship will fail. SO again, saying the submissive is the boss is nonsense, but each and every dominant will have to watch the all over happiness of his submissive. Without a dominant, there is no submissive, but that works 2 both ways
Being in a lifestyle D/s, adds unbelievable much. But the effort to keep it working, is also a lot higher.

How this translates into SL: Hardly. The way I see it, SL is a perfect way to explore your feelings, and might even be a way to live out those feelings. Some couples I met were very happy living it out that way. But the biggest part of SL dominants I saw, hardly have a clue what they are doing. The successful ones, almost all were RL dominants as well.

One last piece of advice: If you want to live out a D/s relationship in SL, be absolutely honest. If you are starting dominant, tell your partner that before anything. Don't for get the emotions involved are very strong. If you want to call yourself dominant, accept the resposibilities, and do not leave a trail of broken persons behind you.

Excellent post Marcel

Thanks Dementia

Though it's not a direct answer to the OP, I think it should shine some light on some of the questions From what I saw in SL, it is not that much different from RL: Many guys think wearing leatherpants makes them the perfect Dominant Would be funny if the results were not that sad.

Wait, the submissive gets to choose?

So your happiness is based upon...? That sounds rather balanced to me...

So she holds the ultimate control?

Oh? In what you describe, the submissive indirectly dictates the relationship and holds all the cards, while you are "burdened" by double the responsibility. As dominant, do you really have any choice but to cater to her happiness, wants and needs?

Hmm, so the dominant may be the most restricted one in the relationship?

PS: Your post offered wonderful insights Marcel, I simply wanted to present another way of viewing things which your thoughts highlighted, and show how the oversimplifications, or mocking, really undermine understanding the depth of these relationships...I hope you don't mind?

Excellent post. I have had two similar discussions inworld with people who weren't previously exposed to the culture before, and they were also surprised that the sub has as much control in the relationship as they do. It's a very misunderstood relationship type.

Wearing leather pants is ill-advised in almost EVERY situation for guys. Nobody but strung-out rockstars can pull that look off.

Again, I don't fully get the D/s, slave, pet thing. It seems like people are involved in relationships where they are defining the rules for themselves, which is a good thing, in my opinion, but as long as that is happening, then there will be no clear definitions for these lifestyles. People will keep blurring the edges to make things work for their particular situations.

Frankly, I would hate to try to define any sort of relationship or lifestyle. The more you try to pin it down, the more it's going to elude you.

OH, dis is an easy question...

Sub: a type of sandwich, usually with sliced deli meat and stuff, but I prefer the meatball type.

Slave: a secondary drive in a computer

Pet: a kitty or a doggie or a birdie who you take care of an stuff.

Now, I am not a slave so I could perhaps misunderstand the mentality- but I would think giving up your self so entirely must be the ultimate freedom. The dom has the greatest responsibility but both are answering this need in the other.

Of course... we get to run around without panties alot. We have to follow orders, after all, so its not our fault


sorry, just had to inject a little humor here

I am very much outside this BDSM thing, but I've had reason to poke around the Internet looking at what people post who are into this scene, and it seems to me there are two very distinct camps here.

One is the camp that really is into mere "power exchange," the voluntary transfer of power within a relationship from one person to the other. A number of the posters here seem typical examples. It seems to me an exaggeration and dramatization (if you will, a "melodramatization" of what seems to happen quite normally in many, probably most relationships: One partner emerges as the mutually accepted "leader" and the other as the "follower," and if both are happy with the arrangement, the relationship lasts. If they want to spice things up in bed with a little role-play, or even a little light but symbolic spanking, well, some people like to tango, and some people don't.

It's the second camp that concerns me. Often they will start out paying lip service to the nice, neutral, almost "vanilla"-sounding (to use a common phrase for normal sex) concept of power exchange, but can hardly wait to get into the real heart of the matter for them: the suffering - or inflicting - of pain, punishment, humiliation, degradation and symbolic or actual debasement of one partner at the hands of the other. They rationalize like crazy - enthusing over the "trust" and "love" supposedly being shown, or getting quite scientific about the pain releasing a rush of endorphins at the end to give the "sub" a big high. But it is rationalization. The behavior seems quite compulsive, particularly on the "sub" side.

I'm sorry to rain on this parade, but IMHO, when the relationship is focused on acting out overtly abusive behaviors (sometimes to the point of becoming life-threatening) we are in the presence of psychopathology. I don't know whether a particular case is carrying around a huge load of guilt (or ill-controlled hostility or rage in the case of the "Dom", or whether it is acting out sexual conflicts, or identity issues, or what, and frighteningly, neither do they, apparently. IMO these people need psychiatric help far more than "toys"or "scenes" or expressions of "love" or "trust" that result in stuff like coprophagia, welts or burns, blood and possible severe injury or death.

If you are in a D/s relationship, please take a second look. If your focus is merely on experiencing psychological dominance and submission, maybe ok. Maybe. But if the focus is on the pain, punishment, humiliation, please do yourself and your partner a favor and look for help. I read somewhere behavioral therapists have had some success with treating this condition.

That was very well said, Har.
I was thinking, "A little 'tie me up, tie me down' is all in good fun, but dang, some of these people are into scary territory."

Thanks for being much more eloquent .

I beg to differ ... somewhat. I share the concern and the sentiment - but I also believe people have the right to live their lives however they choose.

I'm not going to stand in judgement, condone or condemn, D/S relationships in RL. Im not a psychologist, nor do I have the right to express a blanket opinion on how grown adults should or should not conduct their lives and relationships.

In SL, however, freedom from an abusive relationship is as easy as a tp. Removal from the friends list, mute them, spam the email if nessasary - done deal. Some people have a need to express themselves as dom or sub in various ways and for various reasons. If SL is about anything, its about the freedom to express one's self.

I believe it is wrong to take a stand concerning activities between consenting adults to say 'this is wrong' as far as SL is concerned. As long as we're talking about consenting adults portraying adults, let people have the SL relationship they desire without someone else's moral injection. One person's scary is another person's sexy.

I meant my comment more toward RL than SL. The poster I was 'Amening' seemed to have quite a bit of insight and came off(to me) as being non-judgmental but concerned.

I agree that SL is an excellent safe space for trying on things of all sorts, and I would hesitate to say what's wrong or right for anyone else, but I've 'overread' things that made me hope a person's real life boundaries were much more solid than their SL ones.

Not that that's unique to SL. I've definitely seen the same in chatrooms.

Agreed. If I had a dollar for every clown in Assless Chaps and Kaiser Wilhelm Helmet who demanded to be called Master, I'd be able to own an island by now.

I've been exploring this subject in SL myself, and have pretty much learned that there are as many reasons why as there are people doing it. It's a complex issue, and while for some it is just some naughty fun, for others it is a deep exploration of their inner selves. None of the motivations are more right than the other

Thanks for commenting, Ghosty. I, and I think Whyspe, were concerning ourselves with RL situations. One of the really big things about SL is that you can play with any concept, no matter how outrageous or impossible, with no harm done that can't be fixed by hitting the ESC button.

But thank you, because you raise a separate and very important question. Yes, everyone has the right to choose how they live. And as long as they harm no-one else, it is their business. But that is not to say that all such choices are morally equivalent. They are not. And it is right to say they are not, even when it is not right to forcibly intervene in someone else's choices (which is most of the time). It is a fallacy to pretend that no-one has the right to judge; making judgements is essential in life. What no-one has is the right to use force to make someone act as you judge they should rather than use reason and persuasion.

So, no, I will not condemn someone for being into BDSM, for example. But I will judge it as a bad idea, like being into crack or meth, or any number of other self-destructive behaviors, and do what I can to help them get out of it if I think it is becoming a danger to them. So should anyone.

Sir will do.