Landbots 101

I don't think they are bypassing the search throttles. They simply adapted by running more bots.

How is this different from present? I buy a 512 and next day I see a better and or cheaper one. That's life.



Fair enough point and I don't think it's fair to pull a sale out of auction just because someone wants to strike another deal, but no system is perfect. In fact at present this is open to abuse. A seller puts up 3 pieces of land for sale and sells them. Then under an alt they have sold to they put up a 4th piece which adjoins all 3 at a super inflated price knowing that the owner of the 3 pieces has to buy to make their original 3 better for future sale.

It's different. Today, if I see a 512 I want, I go buy it. Under an auction system, I see a 512 I want, I bid on it. And lose. And find another and bid on it. And lose. And find a couple I like and decide to bid on both of them because they end around the same time and I want to make sure I get something, and I'm tired of spending all my time running around the map and bidding on auctions and losing, and wish I could go back to the good ol' days where I could just buy a piece of property I like and start building on it instead of wasting time bidding on auctions and losing. But then the auctions end with seconds of each other, and I miraculously win both, and I only have enough money to pay for one of them. What then?




I wouldn't buy any of the first three in the first place under the current system if I couldn't join them. And I probably wouldn't bid on any of them at auction either, because I would have to bid outrageous amounts just to guarantee I didn't get outbid, and an unscrupulous owner, knowing that I won three lots and the fourth is about to end and I probably want that one too, very well could bid with an alt to drive up the price at the last second and gain more profit.

Brilliant solutions here! Wouldn't it be terrific if the Linden Lab company read just one page of this thread? (Or how 'bout they create a think-thank comprised of SL people like many of the ones who posted here, to brainstorm solutions to their [many] problems?) (Sort of a LibSL for process, sociological, economic, etc. issues.)

And in regards to auction versus set-price. Why must we be forced to choose just one method? Why can't we have the option for either?

eBay allows you to set a fixed "Buy it now" price or let it go for auction. If I was a noob and had no idea what the value was, I'd put it up for auction and cross my fingers. If I had purchased the land for X dollars and wanted those X dollars back, I'd set a reserve price and put it up for auction. If I had to tier down, and fast, I'd set a good "Buy it now" price. If I knew land values and what a piece of land had sold for next door, I'd put it up for auction with a reserve price or set it at the BIN price.

I'm sure there are technological reasons why not, but why not subcontract the whole buying and selling process of land to eBay or other experts in auction sales?

Why not take the whole land buying/selling process off world and onto a website, like land auctions and island sales currently are?

Heh. On eBay, people use bots that (a) let them make a list of, say, a dozen of the same thing to bid on, (b) only submits their bid in the last seconds of the auction ("snipes", then (c) cancels all their other bids the first time they actually win one, so they don't end up getting more than one. This lets them sit down for a few minutes and make low bids (counting on getting ONE of the dozen or so auctions rather than setting high bids on one).

If you guys are serious about wanting "a level playing field," then by all means write a landbot and make it freely available. Then all the land dealers could run bots, and end-users could do the same. The original bot-runners would have no advantage.

As for land agents raising the overall value of land, I'm sure they're a much smaller factor than you believe. They would love to be able to raise land prices by, say, 5L$/m2 over whatever they pay. However, the truth is they are just as subject to the market as anyone else. If they raise prices, people will just buy from someone selling for cheaper--even if that "someone" is just another land dealer. As it happens, land dealers find it much easier to get their profit by buying land from someone who needs to make a quick sale at below-market prices than by selling land at above-market prices.

I agree.

And I consider this a very prescient post. At that point . . . there will be no point.

coco

Doesn't work that way. The person with the fastest bot will get all the land. Sure there'll be an arms race to make your particular bot be the fastest, but the result will always be that all land will go to the fastest bot du jour. That's what we're seeing happen now, and that's the way it would remain if everybody used bots. There's nothing level about that playing field. Meanwhile, the average resident will be left out in the cold.

Wrong.

It is not humanly possible to even become remotely close to a bot in database queries.

Can you imagine , that clicking a mouse every second for 24 hours? Your tendons would die a painful death in the first few hours.

One could use macros or gamepads with autofire, but unless you are staring at the screen, you can miss sales. Can you imagine staring at flashing numbers on a screen for 24 hours? Your eyes would melt.

The average human land buyer needs to eat, sleep, clean house, shop among other things. I answer alot tech support IMs for my radios or other reasons. I build, script and attend events. During those times, I'm not using the database. This causes me to miss land sales, but I lose nothing, because its not mine in the first place. Recently, the bots are operating with this grandiose sense of entitlement. I've heard Elanthius cursing out loud about "newbies taking my land", on far more than one occasion.

One of the bot controllers, is actually quite an amiable young man. He responds to my IMs, answers any questions I pose to him. He is a good coder and takes extraordinary measures to limit the trauma caused to residents when their land is swooped by his bot. In the last few days, he reported to me "my land sales have been near zero", presumably because the libsl bot has become highly refined and Elanthius is running multiple bots.

The point I'm making here is, no matter how many bots are on the grid..... one or two will prevail, hence channelling all the revenue to single sources and that is patently unfair to everyone in Second Life. Nobody suggested the land market should be controlled by a single entity under any circumstances, yet this elite sense of entitlement is what we get from the bot controllers.

libsecondlife reversed the SL client. They have the "inside track" on the meat and potatoes od SL and land sales, and even the most clever bot would have difficulty competing. It's monopolistic and disproportionate in the highest degree, to the point of anti-trust.

I will ask this again. Why would anyone operate a bot or multiple bots...for anything other than greed?

Whatever LandBots do, they aren't good for SL. Only good for a select few or person with some good technical knowledge and programming skills.

I counter with this question - Why would anyone flip land with a bot or without one for anything other than greed?

I fail to see why someone who is resourceful and skilled enough to use and program a bot should be penalized because others lack those skills or are unwilling to learn and do what is necessary to compete.

I will answer your question, when you answer mine.

Second Life is about equal access to all resources.

You will not convince me, or most anyone else, that bots are good for SL.

Roll down you sleeve, your bias is showing, sir.

They happen to have a tool that gives them an edge in business. It is up to the competition to develope their own tools in order to stay competitive instead of just complaining. If I create something to sell and my competitor does it better because they have better tools, who am I to wrong them for it?

Please show me where this is stated or even implied by LL.

4.2 You agree to use Second Life as provided, without unauthorized software or other means of access or use. You will not make unauthorized works from or conduct unauthorized distribution of the Linden Software.

Linden Lab has designed the Service to be experienced only as offered by Linden Lab at the Websites or partner websites. Linden Lab is not responsible for any aspect of the Service that is accessed or experienced using software or other means that are not provided by Linden Lab. You agree not to create or provide any server emulators or other software or other means that provide access to or use of the Servers without the express written authorization of Linden Lab. Notwithstanding the foregoing, you may use and create software that provides access to the Servers for substantially similar function (or subset thereof) as the Viewer; provided that such software is not used for and does not enable any violation of these Terms of Service. Linden Lab is not obligated to allow access to the Servers by any software that is not provided by Linden Lab, and you agree to cease using, creating, distributing or providing any such software at the request of Linden Lab. You are prohibited from taking any action that imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on Linden Lab's infrastructure.

Bolding mine.

What part of "disproportionately" do you not understand?

Well apparently the lack of action on LL's part says otherwise and complaining about it in the forums is not going to do much. I'm sure you have contacted them personally about it and if you feel so strongly about the issue, I encourage you and others to do so. Until then the bots are a legal tool.

There are other resource hogs besides bots that are allowed to exist in SL. I shouldn't need to list them all since they are obvious.

Robin has stated "The landbots have created an unfair land market".

I don't need a ton of bricks to fall on my head to realize there is a problem here. Just exactly what they intend to do about it, remains to be seen.

Given the gravity of the issue, it's neither unreasonable to bring awareness to others by posting in these forums, nor is it to ask for LL an official position on the matter.

But was it stated that they actually care? Actions speak louder than words. If they truely thought it was a huge problem they could have made the use of land bots illegal and anyone caught using them would be ejected from SL, but they didn't. They only said they are working on a solution, like all the other things they have been working on that have yet to materialize.

You need to adapt or get out of the cheap land market.

I don't need to adapt to anything at your behest. I certainly don't need to get out of the land market, particularily if it means creating an even greater imbalance.

I could run a bot anytime, if I please. I am wholly capable of doing so. I choose not to, because I understand the ramifications and implications of it. Firstly, running bots is contrary to the TOS as far as I'm concerned and secondly, I prefer to compete on a level playfield where equity in competition exists.

A rash of bots will kill SL, dead. Either that, or force LL's hand in ways where everyone will be adversely affected. The average user should not have to pay for the sins of the bots.

The only thing it will do is replace land dealers without programming skills with land dealers with programming skills.

The average user was already affected before the bots because the average user is not going to waste their time constantly clicking on search to MAYBE win the land lottery and beat a dealer to it.

Wrong.

That's elitism and favortism. Period.

Please explain how.

How does removing non skilled programmers only to allow skill programmers imply anything other than elitism?

I can just see the TOS under your notion.

1.0 - Unless you are a certified programmer, proficient in C, C#, C++ and mySQL, you may not buy, sell or otherwise trade land in Second Life...........

I fail to see why someone who is resourceful and skilled enough to use and program a system for taking people's lindens out of their accounts should be penalized because others lack those skills or are unwilling to learn and do what is necessary to compete.

coco