Gender Identification

The teen grid is a honeypot populated by FBI agents

I don't think the original post is entirely flame-bait. It raises (even if again) interesting points worthy of discussion, as the thread demonstrates.

Much of the disgreement here is due to people not recognising that different players have different agendas here - different hopes - different intentions.

Achieving friendship, even perhaps intimacy, with another anonymous person online can have a number of purposes and outcomes.

Some of these can be very seriously damaged if the gender of your "partner" is being falsified.

Examples:
If you hope to grow your SL relationship into an RL one.
If you are inexperienced with the opposite gender, and are seeking to learn how to interact with them, in a non-threatening environment.
If you are in difficulties with an RL relationship, and looking for advice in dealing with your partner from someone of their gender.

For those seeking none of those things, it is easy to say - "Hey, its a game, it doesn't matter" or "its all in the mind", and thus to deride those who actually need a genuine member of the opposite sex to give their interactions value for them.

Personally, I am absolutely astonished to discover (from personal observation and from browsing profiles) how many people take SL relationships desperately seriously on the romantic front.

Even if I was short of romantic interest in RL (which is far from the case) I would never consider a romantic involvement in SL, simply because of this gender ambiguity.

I don't find cybersex sexually arousing, but I know many do, and presumably this involves "talking dirty" while masturbating. Even if this appealed with a genuine female, the idea of doing this in synchronism with another guy is utterly unacceptable to me, and something I could never risk doing.

It is hard to know how many other residents of either sex feel a similar concern, but from my knowledge of the actual private attitudes of normal young american men towards sexual contact with other males, I would think that 30% of them would certainly not be an overestimate.

We cannot count in the statistics only those who do actually "cyber" to arousal. We need to count also those who would never dream of doing so precisely because of this risk.

I think personally that this is a moral question. Playing as or with the transgendered is fine if you wish it, as long as it stays playing, but if it becomes clear that either partner is getting so emotionally involved that they are likely to seek RL involvement (or are otherwise significantly relying and trusting on gender genuineness) then it is time to cool it and come clean.

Human emotions being what they are, and the huge number of people who are starved of intimacy and empathy, there is a real danger that vulnerable people will get sucked into relationships which would be totally unacceptable to them if they knew the facts. This of course applies to more than gender, but it is for most people I think the least-dismissible RL characteristic. Age can be forgiven, ugliness can be forgiven, but finding yourself suddenly unintentionally an RL homosexual/lesbian would be very hard for many people emotionally, even putting aside the unintended abandonment of reproductive ambitions which would result from a fullscale RL hookup.

The fact that there are small numbers of persons with indeterminate RL gender is not relevant. It's a question of consent. The moment it becomes more than a game to either party, consent is required. Consent given in a situation of deceit is not consent.

The answer must be - if unwittingly entering into a deeply intimate homosexual/lesbian relationship is unnacceptable to you - seriously limit your emotional involvement, and be aware that things may escalate beyond your control if you are lonely/vulnerable. For me it is strictly "friendship only".

I'm sorry. Personal preference is not morality.
A boy playing as a girl is not immoral. A boy hooking up with another boy while pretending to be a girl in an online virtual world is not immoral.

Mickey - were you replying to me ?

You seem to be disagreeing with something I didn't say.

I talk too much, don't I ?
Perhaps because of that you didn't notice my main point ?

Which was that morality only rears its head if it becomes clear that for one person it has stopped being a game.
At that point, fresh consent, free of deceit, becomes morally necessary. In my opinion.

You think not ?

For the first question. Yes there is. You have to meet the person first in real life. Yes that might be a little tough to do but that's the answer that no one seems to want to tell you.

For the second loaded question, I can't answer for Linden Lab. No one without a Linden surname could really answer this question.

Yeah, sorry about that. Coffee's still kicking in! *grin*

I agree with much of what you say, but I have to strongly disagree with the "moral question" part.

It just bugs me when people bring up their preferences and label them morals. Not saying you're doing it, just that it bugs me. It happens all the time. Knowing whether the person you are talking to on the other side of the screen is a boy or a girl is not a moral imperative.
To be honest, if someone has a hangup about whether the person is male or female, it's really on them, isn't it?

Not bagging on you. Like I said, I agreed with much of what you said.

WAIT! Just had a thought.

Juani,

since this is such a pressing issue for you, why not just not associate with people who won't reveal their gender or sex? If they are so despicable to you (based on your "preying on the weak and innocent" remarks), why not just have a personal policy to not have anything to do with people who don't tell you their RL sex? That way, you are responsible for your hangups and no one else has to deal with them.

I'm sure one third of SL will be right there with you.

SL is what it is - just because a person isn't able to operate within its parameters doesn't mean they have the right to demand that SL changes for *them*. One might argue that it's something that's paid for - but I don't think the Lindens ever promised anyone they'd customize the product for a certain population that are uncomfortable with some of the possibilities and situations created by the environment.

Hmm.. what's it people say about not being able to take the heat? Get out of the kitchen?

Heh - here's hoping I remember my own words when I encounter my own "line" in SL.

As the song says "I didn't know I was looking for love, until I found you"

Well, not YOU, you understand. "You". Generically. Relationships BECOME relationships BECAUSE people aren't en garde all day every day, and stuff happens. Being hoity-toity about whether that's online or not is something of an insult to those who seem to be able to sustain relationships which move from virtual to actual...