Yes, Landbots screw us once again, so keep cheering them on!
|
|
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
|
05-14-2007 09:20
From: Ralph Doctorow I just confirmed this and bug reported it.
1) AV "Seller" sets a piece of land for sale for L$100
2) AV "Buyer" selects buy land - the purchase price is shown as L$100
3) "Seller" changes the price to L$110
4) "Buyer" clicks Purchase on the purchase menu that still shows L$100
The result is "Buyer" pays "Seller" L$110 without ever seeing that as the price.
IMHO this is a clear SL bug which LL should immediately do something about and should compensate people who lost money because of it. They should probably also consider banning people who exploited it, although it may be tough to prove intent. OK, so now I understand that the estate owner couldn't get a person's money back. (I thought you had to go THROUGH the estate owner to sell your land at all.) Now my question is: There is a bot that puts land for sale, then waits for someone to buy it, then the minute it does, that bot raises the price the moment that person has checked the "buy" box, but before the process is complete? How does the bot know the person has checked to buy? How does the bot know the person is in the middle of buying the land? coco |
|
Cristalle Karami
Lady of the House
Join date: 4 Dec 2006
Posts: 6,222
|
05-14-2007 09:23
That is what I want to know. Does the bot detect clicks on about land? Buy land? How does one do that, exactly?
|
|
Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
|
05-14-2007 09:25
From: Amity Slade Bait-and-switch is illegal in California (and I think in every state in the United States). Using Second Life to violate the law is supposedly a violation of the Terms of Service. Victims of bait-and-switch should start reporting Linden Labs to the California Department of Consumer Affairs. Submit a copy of the Second Life Terms of Service; a screen shot of the land advertised price; a screen shot of the land actual price; and a brief but clear explanation of how the money exchange works. When a few of those pile up, I bet there will be an investigation into Linden Labs' business practices. It would be nice if Linden Labs acted on these issues proactively, rather than waiting until they are threated with litigation. But that's their choice. Keeps the lawyers in business. Here a link to a fact sheet from the California Department of Consumer Affairs, summarizing illegal practices and what victims can do: http://www.dca.ca.gov/legal/advfact.htmYou know this is good to know, or be reminded of. A person becomes so hopeless after a while, knowing there is no law here, and anyone can do anything to anybody they like. The hopelessness gets compounded when people invariably jump in to say, "Well, you should have been more careful/known better/known about it before it happened, so it sucks to be you." It feels very refreshing when every ONCE in a while someone makes a sensible connection between SL and real-life law, where it isn't just a jungle of survival of the scummiest. coco |
|
Rusty Dagger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 29
|
05-14-2007 09:35
By now everyone should realize that there is nothing you can do about it, and NOTHING LL is going to do about it. LL Don't care who, what, or how much people get ripped off as long as LL gets their money first!!!!!!!! People have had whole sims stolen by Landbots and LL has done nothing! So I wouldn't expect anything to be done about this practice now or in the future! They Don't care about people, They only care weather your CC # or Paypal account is Good!
|
|
Ralph Doctorow
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 560
|
05-14-2007 09:38
From: Strife Onizuka If there isn't already a bug report on Jira for this, someone should submit one. Actually there is one, submitted by Strife Onizuka on March 13, 2007 VWR-235. |
|
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
|
05-14-2007 09:43
That's certainly similar but I think they're different issues, Ralph.
_____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!! - Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224- If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
|
|
Ralph Doctorow
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 560
|
05-14-2007 09:50
From: Cocoanut Koala
Now my question is:
There is a bot that puts land for sale, then waits for someone to buy it, then the minute it does, that bot raises the price the moment that person has checked the "buy" box, but before the process is complete?
How does the bot know the person has checked to buy? How does the bot know the person is in the middle of buying the land?
coco
Personally, without knowing the circumstances (so I may be very wrong), I kind of doubt this would be done by a bot without assistance. I don't believe that there is any way for a bot (or person without looking) to know that an AV has clicked on the buy land option. It seems more likely to me that someone is watching the process and notices when the buyer gestures towards the land, then does the price switch. It would be somewhat like fishing, sometimes you'd try to set the hook too soon or too late, but I'd imagine that you could develop a skill at it. Maybe a bot would help in that it probably could do the switch much more quickly, but I don't think it could be done very successfully without a human involved to do the watching. In any case I still think this is an exploit and should be punished. |
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
05-14-2007 09:54
Does anyone find it ironic were going to be expected to police our own content on mature parcels - But Landbot owners are not required to police their own conduct?
What I think Reponsible Landbots should do -
-Landbots should not buy any parcel that is set for sale for under L$ 100.
This will remove swooping based on robbery during transfer.
-Landbots should not buy land under $2L/SQM (adjusted if land prices crash ofc)
This will remove swooping based on forgetting a 0.
-Landbots should not perform this bait and switch action.
this ones simple since it has to be intentional
-All Landbots must register to LL as landbots.
This one is needed to keep track of the landbot in case of abuse
|
|
Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
|
05-14-2007 10:09
From: Meade Paravane Vote for the JIRA issue. The more votes it gets, the more attention at LL it gets. Thanks, will do. Bit ignorant about JIRA. |
|
Dnali Anabuki
Still Crazy
Join date: 17 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,633
|
05-14-2007 10:22
From: Colette Meiji Does anyone find it ironic were going to be expected to police our own content on mature parcels - But Landbot owners are not required to police their own conduct?
What I think Reponsible Landbots should do -
-Landbots should not buy any parcel that is set for sale for under L$ 100.
This will remove swooping based on robbery during transfer.
-Landbots should not buy land under $2L/SQM (adjusted if land prices crash ofc)
This will remove swooping based on forgetting a 0.
-Landbots should not perform this bait and switch action.
this ones simple since it has to be intentional
-All Landbots must register to LL as landbots.
This one is needed to keep track of the landbot in case of abuse Perfect Colette. As well I think we should know who is running land bots publicaly so we can be informed consumers. |
|
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
|
05-14-2007 10:26
From: Dnali Anabuki Thanks, will do. Bit ignorant about JIRA. There's a jira bug that makes voting a little annoying.. I see you've already voted. For others not familiar with voting for JIRA bugs, do this: - Go to http://jira.secondlife.com
- Login with your SL name and password (look for the login link on the top right)
- At the top-right of the screen, enter MISC-204 in the Quick Search box and press return
- The MISC-204 issue will appear (it may take a minute - be patient)
- On the lower-left, find the hypertext that says Vote for it and click it
- That's it
_____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!! - Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224- If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
|
|
Elanthius Flagstaff
Registered User
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 1,534
|
05-14-2007 10:29
From: Cocoanut Koala How does the bot know the person has checked to buy? How does the bot know the person is in the middle of buying the land?
coco The land owner doesn't know. There's no way to seriously detect when someone opens the buy page. That's why he's flipping the price back and forth, back and forth. If he loses a few 16s for L$1 it's worth it because once in a while he'll get a couple hundred thousand lindens. For example, so far I've bought about 50 parcels off this monkey but he caught me out on only two. That's just me, God knows how many more he's sold for stupidly cheap prices. I think most bot runners have solved the problem by just avoiding parcels under 512sqm. If he's gonna keep it up he'll have to put something significant at risk. |
|
Tender Pintens
Registered User
Join date: 4 Feb 2007
Posts: 26
|
05-14-2007 10:33
Sorry Colette but none of that is enforceable and not going to work to police something that can not be circumvented. If someone wants to make money with either a buying bot that buys low, or a selling bot that swaps the price to sell it high, its just not going to happen.
Programs such as this only stop honest people, and so far both of these bots are being used for less than honest and downright exploitable things.
|
|
ForestMist Skjellerup
Sculptor
Join date: 6 Dec 2006
Posts: 57
|
05-14-2007 10:44
From: Ralph Doctorow Actually there is one, submitted by Strife Onizuka on March 13, 2007 VWR-235. Here's another part of human nature that the in-the-wild computer world reminds us of. Until a vulnerability is being actively exploited, response by harried tech people tends not to be as instant as would be optimal. Somewhat similarly, some of us may not be completely up-to-date on our home computer security updates. I'm not meaning to completely apologize for LL, but I think it didn't get thought completely through by them last March. |
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
05-14-2007 10:44
From: Tender Pintens Sorry Colette but none of that is enforceable and not going to work to police something that can not be circumvented. If someone wants to make money with either a buying bot that buys low, or a selling bot that swaps the price to sell it high, its just not going to happen.
Programs such as this only stop honest people, and so far both of these bots are being used for less than honest and downright exploitable things. Like the rest of the Community Standards are unenforceable. Like I said - They are expecting EVERYONE who owns Mature land to Self-Police soon. Stopping honest landbot owners from exploiting people is better than nothing. If their bot is set up to auto-swoop these "honest" Landbotters are only honest when they get caught. You are right - it wont stop the dishonest landbots. But then at least we can stop lumping the honest and dishonest ones together. Basically - with landbots theres three things they can do *Nothing - let them run rampant *Allow responsible ones to continue and ban the irresponsible ones *Hamper or Ban them all. |
|
Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
|
05-14-2007 11:06
From: Elanthius Flagstaff The land owner doesn't know. There's no way to seriously detect when someone opens the buy page. That's why he's flipping the price back and forth, back and forth. If he loses a few 16s for L$1 it's worth it because once in a while he'll get a couple hundred thousand lindens. For example, so far I've bought about 50 parcels off this monkey but he caught me out on only two. That's just me, God knows how many more he's sold for stupidly cheap prices.
I think most bot runners have solved the problem by just avoiding parcels under 512sqm. If he's gonna keep it up he'll have to put something significant at risk. Good to hear he is doing this mostly with plots smaller than 512 meters. This will save most average end users from getting punked. I think I will start rooting for him now, especially if he nails a few of my favorite spam ad dealers buying little plots to add their spinning pollution.
_____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
|
|
Meade Paravane
Hedgehog
Join date: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 4,845
|
05-14-2007 11:07
From: Colette Meiji Stopping honest landbot owners from exploiting people is better than nothing. If they were honest, they probably wouldn't be exploiting people.
_____________________
Tired of shouting clubs and lucky chairs? Vote for llParcelSay!!! - Go here: http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1224- If you see "if you were logged in.." on the left, click it and log in - Click the "Vote for it" link on the left
|
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
05-14-2007 11:16
From: Meade Paravane If they were honest, they probably wouldn't be exploiting people. I agree I would say - If they were honest, they probably SHOULDNT be exploiting people. Right now as I understand it, this is how an "Honest" landbot owner works - The land bot takes advantage of Land set to 0L and land Sold undervalue by mistake (such as leaving a zero off) If the previous land owner REALIZES they had a loss cuased by swooping - AND - goes through to effort getting in touch with the creator- And is contacts them soon enough - The Honest Landbotter will fix the situation. This is basically 'Honesty if your cuaght policy' - Kind of like kids do when they get cuaght by their parents. The difference between them and the dishonest Landbotters is the dishonest ones dont give refunds when cuaght. A truley Honest Landbotter wouldnt run a bot that would swoop. |
|
Colette Meiji
Registered User
Join date: 25 Mar 2005
Posts: 15,556
|
05-14-2007 11:19
From: Raymond Figtree Good to hear he is doing this mostly with plots smaller than 512 meters. This will save most average end users from getting punked. I think I will start rooting for him now, especially if he nails a few of my favorite spam ad dealers buying little plots to add their spinning pollution. Probably the percentages are bigger - with small plots the scamee more likely will have the new Higher price in his/her account. |
|
Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
|
05-14-2007 11:30
From: Colette Meiji Probably the percentages are bigger - with small plots the scamee more likely will have the new Higher price in his/her account. No end user should buy less than a 512 unless it's for prims. It's mostly ad dealers and land flippers buying those tiny plots, I hope. From: Colette Meiji I agree
I would say -
If they were honest, they probably SHOULDNT be exploiting people.
Right now as I understand it, this is how an "Honest" landbot owner works -
The land bot takes advantage of Land set to 0L and land Sold undervalue by mistake (such as leaving a zero off)
If the previous land owner REALIZES they had a loss cuased by swooping - AND - goes through to effort getting in touch with the creator- And is contacts them soon enough - The Honest Landbotter will fix the situation.
This is basically 'Honesty if your cuaght policy' - Kind of like kids do when they get cuaght by their parents.
The difference between them and the dishonest Landbotters is the dishonest ones dont give refunds when cuaght.
A truley Honest Landbotter wouldnt run a bot that would swoop. The landbot owners go to a lot of trouble to code and maintain an automated system designed to buy land below market and resell it higher. They will never set their bots to only buy land that is set at market prices. Bots were born to swoop. And, according to LL's TOS, this is an honest and legal thing to do.
_____________________
Read or listen to some Eckhart Tolle. You won't regret it.
|
|
Elinah Iredell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 269
|
05-14-2007 11:41
From: Colette Meiji I agree.
Unless you are a landbot or a Land Pro -
Never buy land in a hurry. Always double check, and triple check everything. And reopen the about land before buying in case someone changed something.
Im about THIS close to saying people who buy land on the mainland are crazy. Its an unregulated mess and the people who you pay tier to are irresponsible.
At least private Islands they have to answer to their reputations. Unless they decide to leave the game... do you realize what may happen if estate owners in sl decide they dont want to be verified? They may leave the game people !! I own mainland because i dont trust the idea that my land can be taken from me like that. Elinah |
|
ForestMist Skjellerup
Sculptor
Join date: 6 Dec 2006
Posts: 57
|
05-14-2007 11:41
From: Raymond Figtree No end user should buy less than a 512 unless it's for prims. It's mostly ad dealers and land flippers buying those tiny plots, I hope. Not completely. I've been buying little plots (mostly 96s and 128s) and putting little gardens on them, because I'm a fair amount below my tier limit, and it's fun, and I feel like I'm giving to community. I put one sculpture on each for sale, but don't really expect to sell any that way. Uh oh, hopefully I'll do ok by buying at market only, not below, better be careful. So far I've been lucky (knocking on wood). Edit: --> By the way, we should all now be extra careful, now that this is public. There could be plenty of people reading this topic here right now who will be more than tempted to try it for themselves. The danger is very high, if I understand it rightly. |
|
Elinah Iredell
Registered User
Join date: 14 Aug 2006
Posts: 269
|
05-14-2007 11:56
From: Kitty Barnett I don't have a problem with full sim auctions, but if LL made it that once you buy a plot of land, you're stuck with it for a certain amount of time before you can resell it then that makes instant land flipping unprofitable.
Alternatives could be that "set for sale to" will always work, as well as auctioning the plot off, but no more instant reselling in-world.
Not *every* land dealer is dishonest, but the temptation to be dishonest is just too great for anyone involved with land. The tree-planting on 16m² project would be one of the noble and admirable things, if only I didn't come across ad plot cutters in that group again and again. What is the tree planting project? And what are ad plot cutters??? Elinah |
|
Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
|
05-14-2007 11:57
From: Raymond Figtree Good to hear he is doing this mostly with plots smaller than 512 meters. This will save most average end users from getting punked. It was happening with 3 512m² last night supposidly, and they weren't terribly cheap (L$4400ish for 512m²). The only victim there was a bot runner who ended up paying L$12k instead if the changed land description is an indication of price paid. The visible owners of the group owned plot were unverifieds who were hovering around all three 512m² all the time. From: Elinah Iredell What is the tree planting project? And what are ad plot cutters??? Ad plot cutters are those who buy a parcel and cut out 16m²-128m² little strips to be used for those ugly revolving ad signs you see all over the mainland. The tree planting project supposidly buys a few of them and plants a tree on it instead (I think it's the Arbor Project, search in groups). |
|
Sarah Nerd
I BUY LAND
Join date: 22 Aug 2005
Posts: 796
|
05-14-2007 12:05
From: Colette Meiji Does anyone find it ironic were going to be expected to police our own content on mature parcels - But Landbot owners are not required to police their own conduct?
What I think Reponsible Landbots should do -
-Landbots should not buy any parcel that is set for sale for under L$ 100.
This will remove swooping based on robbery during transfer.
-Landbots should not buy land under $2L/SQM (adjusted if land prices crash ofc)
This will remove swooping based on forgetting a 0.
-Landbots should not perform this bait and switch action.
this ones simple since it has to be intentional
-All Landbots must register to LL as landbots.
This one is needed to keep track of the landbot in case of abuse This would be great, but theres very few bots that do this, and a number who search specfically for errors and set bots to look for everything you just claimed they shouldnt. LL hasn't seemed to catch on to lag and latency as a cause and likes to dismiss it as pure human error. |