Important! Adult shops, clubs and services in SL

You cannot apply real world sex.

It's not the issue of whether it's sex or not. It's an issue as to whether it's objectionable.

And yes, there are some current cases out there under this same precident. I think it was EVE that has that portal place, that was involved in a lawsuit a few years back, even though there is a disclaimer in the ToS that states you must be 18 or have parents permission, it was gray enough. I've never played, but saw a screen shot.

Join any major gaming clan and watch as they post stories from gamer insider mags. Not what the mainstream media is posting, not what the commcercials show you, and not what everyone wants you to believe when it comes to gaming. Gaming isn't all sunshine and it's not the real world. The internet is LARGELY unregulated which I'm glad for in a sense, but then again, it leaves open those sorts of doors.

There are some majorly large articles in many of these mags about the consequences, repercussions, and legality of it all, including quotes from lawyers who have represented the gamers and the companies they sued.

Case and point: if we were to really bring this to RL in the right context, you'd have to go buy the gas stations that are getting fined by selling to a minor who shows a fake ID. It's up to the clerk to determine fakes. There are stings all the time that have minors trying without ID's, with fake ID's, and with ID's from out of state.

What the biggest thing I see is what happened in LA over the summer:

""""Under the terms of HB1381, sales of a video game to children would be prohibitied if the title

"Appeals to the minor's morbid interest in violence" according to "contemporary community standards,"
Depicts violence inappropriate to minors according to "prevailing standards" in the adult community, and
Lacks "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value for minors."
Those selling such games to minors could be fined a minimum of US$100 and be sentenced to a year at hard labor.""""

If frivolous lawsuits continue to abound, in LA alone, techincally LL could be prosecuted. More states are starting to create laws like this that are so dang vague, that it applies to just about anyone with an agenda.

P.S. A similiar law was passed in Minnesota and last I heard it was still going through courts and appeals from the reps for the game industry claiming it was unconstitutional.

But the point is - it doesn't matter.. if the case has any publicity at all, the "john"'s life will be wrecked even if he isn't sent to jail. (And there's some argument that might be right, since after all, he was sexually attracted to a 15-year-old.)

This is the reason why it'd be nice to be clear about the grounds for getting a subpoena.

No not a 15 year old, a 15 year old who looks 18 and has "ID" to "prove" she is 18. There is a big difference.

I would think there would have to be a precidence for it. If you talk inappropriately to a minor in an IRC chat or AOL who represents themselves as 30 years old and never lets on they are 15, you do not make plans to meet IRL or other nonsense, then it's not the same thing as what current laws apply to, or letting a minor into your store, etc. All of those things are something you personally have control over, and they all have ways to verify who is a minor and who isnt. All the people in SL have to go on is LL's system for setting up an account.


Once again, another reason to ditch the account sign-ups that do not require verification such as a CC.

So what you are saying here is that there are RL police detailed to patrol SL looking for virtual crime. Come off it!

so last sunday Im watching a tv show called the war at home and it mentions a game and describes sl to a t without saying the name.. and this bugged me becuase it was mentioned by teenage kids on the show. so yeah goodbye to what cant be controlled I guess

Yea, Lewis, you are....just like the rest of us! Live and let live, it's all good.

Give it time. When it comes to 'protecting innocent children' don't underestimate what special interest groups, child protective services and lawyers will resort to, particularly if there's money or assets involved.

And why bother with difficult police/detective work when you can just contrive an entrapment scenario? Like the minors sent into bars to see if they get carded.

We may still be waiting for some precedence to be set, but it's only a matter of time. I'm hoping the precedence is that this is all too silly to bother with.

But then again, people get all wound up about the most absurd things.

What a croc. "We aren't going to verify our players' ages, and if crap happens then it's your fault". That's the jyst I'm getting anyway.

I don't personally participate in the ... "Mature" aspect of this game. I mean, it's fun to laugh at (some of those poseballs really are just hysterical), and yes I roleplay with my character, but I don't actively participate in it and take it seriously. At the same time I recognize there are people that do for one reason or another, and they have their right to. If that's how they want to spend their time in SL...then have at it. Knock yourself out.

I think my biggest issue is this concept that everyone else is reponsible for a kids upbringing besides the parents of the child. Yeah, it's hard to keep tabs on a kid the vast majority of the time, but why is it everyone else's fault if they are doing something they know they aren't supposed to be doing? Why is everyone ELSE responsible for sheilding their eyes?

This isn't the only time this option has been stated and this isn't the only reason this option has been stated for either. Honestly though, I think LL just needs to go with forcing active players to pay a monthly fee to play, at least on the main grid. That potentially would weed out the people who aren't really into the game, the greifers who would no longer see it of any good use of their time since they have to fork out information to get in, and insure that anyone able to get in is either old enough to have a major credit card or has done some fancy footwork with their parents, enabling them to get on the main grid and removing any responsibility for the age problem from LL and SL users. Concidering I've spent years paying a monthly subscription to another MMORPG, I would have no problems doing so now and I think anyone who is even halfway serious about SL wouldn't either. Too bad they seem so ^$%$% resistant on going with that option.

The answer to Both questions would be no If, and ONLY IF the owner of the Establishment Exhuasted Every Reasonable Channel At Thier Disposal to Confirm the Information Provided By the Minor. If they have done so, then the Owner of the establishment Has Indemnified himself against Liability, and if the establishment advertises "All employees over age of Consent." then the Client has been Indemnified. I should add however that the establishments employment Practices WOULD be put under the most uncomfortably close scrutiny, and should the slightest irregularity arise, it would be assumed that they were aware the Minor Was under aged, and that Indemnity would be Lost.

In SL, the Number and Variety of "Every Reasonable Channel At Thier Disposal" is Signifigantly Less than those Open to a Real Life situation of similar description. The Annonymity of the Net has already provided some SMALL measure of Liability protection, but still, I feel those providing adult services Do need to go with a Few Unreasonable Channels as well. Slightest Suspicion, or Shadow of doubt should be more than enough for an SL employer to Reject an application, and if that is solely based upon the applicants spelling, or Phrasology, then so be it.
The Annonymity angle is a Reason to be More Cautious, Not more complacent.

Angel.

Daisy, Your Credulity is Misplaced, In answer to your comment, YES, they Are more than Likely In SL, and Patrolling for Cyber Crime Simply because the Lack of Age Verification on the Adult Grid, and the existance of a Pure Teen Grid Could make a Fertile Hunting ground for the wrong People.

There are Police in Various Jurisdictions in the States, and the RCMP Nation Wide in Canada exploring Many Chat sites, and Interactive On Line Games Hunting for Peds who are using those environments for Stalking Teens. Standard Procedure is to Masquarade as an Under aged person, and wait for the Ped to make advances. the Officer Follows the relationship, Careful to make No suggestions themselves as Full Transcripts will be kept, and any Hint of entrapment would work in the Defences Favor. Once things have progressed to a sufficient Level, the Officer will agree to a Meeting IF one is proposed by the Ped, when the Ped goes to the Meeting, instead of Little Bunny, he is met by Two Huge Officer Friendly's who place him in Custody.

The key in these scenarios is, the suspect is Fully Conscious of the Fact the person they are speaking to is a "Minor", and despite this Knowledge, Or because of it, Solicits Sex From that "Minor".

At NO time do the Police represent themselves as an Adult, then Part way Into the Liason, switch, and say, "Guess what, I'm 14." Something like that WOULD be viewd by Both a D.A.'s Office, AND a defence attourny as Blatant Entrapment, and the case would be Valueless.

Occasionally, the Officer Will enter suspect Chats Posing as another Ped, in an attempt to determine IF such activity IS going on, and If any Child Pornography Materials are being sold, traded, or distributed.

If you pay attention to the News, you will already be aware of Several such Prosecutions, Some of the Investigations have been International, spanning North America, and Europe, and have resulted in Dozens of convictions in One case alone.

Yes, Cyber Space Is being Investigated, and No, SL has No special Immunity from such Investigations.

Angel.

Except those who don't participate in adult stuff, either as supplier or customer.

My avatar is a "teen girl", not your typical Lolita type, but she's just a character that I thought would fun to be. I don't particularly role-play either, but I've had a lot of people tell me that she is 'hot' and wondered if I'd like some 'fun', despite giving absolutely no signs of interest (I am not an 'age player' either).

I usually start by playing dumb, and ask if "Scrabble" was the fun they had in mind. If that doesn't put them off, usually they want information on the 'real me'.

A quick line of "I'm 58, grey, balding, overweight, my name is Larry, I'm a bagel salesman and I still live with my parents" (none of which is true, by the way) tends to send them running.

Ok, some people come here just for the 'adult' side of things, and I can respect that - but why do some find it difficult to understand that many haven't, and many have absolutely no interest in that kind of thing?

Broccoli

That should be "incredulity".

What you go on to describe involves investigations of RL crimes where the internet is used by pedophiles as a way to get in touch with minors whom they then intend to abuse in RL. That is totally different from "crimes" that (a) have no RL component and (b) are committed by the minors, who are trespassing where they shouldn't be.

I was on an adult beech the other day and someone said in open chat what beach do the 7 nd 8 year olds use(and they meant it)

You are right, Incredulity it is.

Yes, what you say is quite true, But that seems to be what Most people are worried about, RL Minors becoming Involved in the Adult activities, or Viewing the Adult Materials, and the resulting potential for Civil, and Criminal Prosecution.

You stated you didn't believe that the Police agencies were Patrolling SL, In answer to that, Yes, they Probably are (Though Most Likely on the Teen Grid). Are they Looking out for Instances where Minors are getting Drawn into Inapropriate activities, Yes they Are, But they are looking Specificly for Adults Deliberately trying to Entice Minors, Not Minors who are trying to sneak into places they shouldn't be. I was pretty specific about the Type of Investigation that would take place. Those are the Finer points, and Really Not Relavant to the thread as a whole.

The Original post has to do with Civil Liability, Not Criminal Prosecution. Police have No Interest what-so-ever in Civil Matters UNLESS the conditions leading to Civil action Also have a criminal Element.
LL has added to thier TOS (And wisely so) a Clause Stating Catagoricly it is NOT responsible for the Material that is Posted in SL by the Residents (This would include not only adult themed materials, But also potentially Libelous contributions or material that might infringe upon the Civil liberties of others), and that Residents bear Full Liability themselves. They aren't telling us we Cannot have Adult Material, they are saying "Do so at your Own Risk". It's Really always been that way, But LL has smart lawyers who have told them Not to assume that Courts will assume that as a Given, and they should Spell it Out. It doesn't in any way INCREASE Our Liability in cases of a Civil action. It doesn't make Lawful activities Illegal, and as i Pointed out Earlier, LL is not the Only one who can Mitigate thier Liability by Putting a disclaimer in Black and White (At least where Adult Material is concerned).

Oh, and Broccoli, the Fact that your "Teen Character" does not Partake of, or supply Adult themed materials does NOT mean she won't ever be Investigated. Happily for you, the Outcome of ay such Investigation will be a Clean Bill of Health, but my original statement stands. No Immunity from Investigation.
I Love your Little defence mechanism, it's a Lot more Fun than Just telling them to Push Off. A Lady friend of mine, (She's streight, I'm a lesbian) would ask me to Help her get rid of unwelcome suitors, she would Give me a Heads up Via IM, then come home usually with Romeo following close behind. He would be met at the door by the Angry lesbian GF going off on her for being out Ally Catting "AGAIN!!" It was SO funny to watch them Back away Fast, then Run for the Hills.

A.

But why would I be investigated when I haven't done anything wrong? It's no more a crime to have an avatar that isn't your real age, than it is to be different from your real gender, orentation or even species.

Broccoli

Investigation does not mean you have done something wrong. It means someone somewhere had the (possibly false) idea that you might have, and they took a look.

Other than that, I think we absolutely need to separate between a teen looking for adult material, and adults looking for children to display that material to. I think if you take reasonable steps to warn people who do not want to see mature stuff off your land, and ban and report any teens that you find out about, in any reasonable country you will not be prosecuted when the teens (inevitably, mind you) lie to you to get in. If, however, you are advertising your stuff to teens, and/or to people looking for sex with children, you are and should be in trouble.

(I'm sorry if your country is not reasonable, and good luck in voting it to be.)

You know what?


BIG LOL ^^


I love these debates about nothing...17, 18..19 year old...sex contents....


I saw in the new papers, here in Spain, the picture of a US SOLDIER shoot by a sniper...18 or 19 year old kid...a few months before he even could not go to the SL adult grid ^^^


So pages and pages to discuss the a virtual "crime"when people are dying the street looks to me.....strange?

I realy hope we do pay the police and all our information services to do something else than tracking possible virtual crime in SL

Oh my oh my oh my.

Research the nature of RL paedo investigations a bit: examine, in particular, what "being investigated" actually means, and how police in many countries have found themselves handed fabricated evidence (cf "Operation Ore" in the UK), as well as the procedures they are expected to adopt in handling paedos once the accusation has been made. The idea of being entirely innocent and finding your house is raided at 4am, as is your place of business and any places (such as clients, part-time workplaces et al) from which you may have used as a computer, also get a visit... then all your computers (and all of your clients too) are confiscated for up to a year, with you barred from gaining access to the net until the investigation completes... then there's the statute that puts you in jail for 20 years for failing to remember an account password they request from you...

The whole subject is surrounded by problems. I know directly of entirely innocent men who have committed suicide due to ongoing investigations like these - more reading at:

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/features/74690/operation-ore-exposed.html

Now, I fully support Ishtara's feature suggestion. part of the right to play responsibly is the responsibility to protect others from the results of your play. Until such time as her idea is implemented, I like the trick pulled by several places I visit, of making everyone arrive at a single TP and then obliging them to "step out of a box" which is made of translucent disclaimers.

That's just bait and switch... if we take that stance, then why are you wasting time here posting about the absurdity of our absurdities, when people are dying. Why are you in SL when people are dying?

Fact is, life happens all around us, regardless of what country we are in. Should we stop going to movies, watching TV, or doing anything else of entertainment value because there are people dying in the world for horrible causes?

You can't tell me anything on military, I was raised by military and am currently living at a military base. My first husband was part of the 3rd combat brigade out of Fort Benning to storm Iraq. Should we just tell them not to do anything else to take a break from bombs, mortars and AK's when thier brothers are dying?

Crime is crime is crime. Should we place value on it, then police no longer become effective anyways. Surely a murder call ranks in higher than a petty theft, but to that business owner, the petty theft is taking food off his family's table. So do we draw a line at petty theft because there are people dying? Who sets the standard for what's 'worth it' or not?

I don't know about Spain, I don't live there, but I do know the US and lawsuit possibilities in gaming. While to everyone else saying, hey... it's the US problem, because LL is based in California, they can be prosecuted out of anywhere in the world on California and US laws. So some Joe Flow from London can sue just like the rest of America, because of our laws. Hey, I don't like it as much as the next guy, but I'm a realist.

Basically I agree that the ridiculous over-worrying about sexual matter before teens is, well ridiculous.

However,

1) as long as you are home living a Second Life and writing big lols to forums instead of out there somewhere dedicating all your time to actually helping the war victims, I'd not take a holier-than-thou attitude about people who actually worry about being prosecuted because of their hobbies, and

2) in my opinion, implying people should not care about children (not 18-yos, but actual children) being molested because there are even worse things happening in the world is almost as ridiculous as the aforementioned overworrying.

But entering a mature sim is just the same. The warning is already there, and it's not my lookout if someone chooses to disregard it.

This article is a terrifying read and I think everyone on this thread needs to read it. In short, it describes that a number of men in the UK were placed under investigation as paedophiles because they had accessed sites owned by a company called Landslide Productions. Landslide Productions was actually a US-based hosting company providing hosting and subscription services; some of the sites they hosted did contain child pornography, but Landslide didn't create it, it was uploaded from outside the US. When the US police investigated the material on Landslide, they passed the details to the UK government. The UK government then arrested, pending investigation for paedophilia, every person on the list they got from the US - without checking first that they'd actually accessed the child porn sites, as opposed to any of the other sites hosted on Landslide. In many cases no evidence was found, but it didn't matter, because even being under investigation was enough to ruin their lives, and many of them killed themselves.

Second Life could very easily take the place of Landslide in that situation.

Someone used a whiteboard marker instead of a sharpie.

You may wish this as fervently as yo ulike, but it is no good as a defence in court, let alone a defence against investigation. See the link I posted for the full horror of what can happen. Thirty-three people are dead - in the real world - as a result of an investigation like this, well before their guilt was established to any reasonable level of doubt in a court of law.

Note that the summary posted here isn't the entire story: the final bottom line as discovered in that article, by one of the UK's finest investigative journalists (we are talking Woodward & Bernstein here), was that the US Law Enforcement agencies fabricated the crucial parts of the evidence trail which showed that the men had assented to see child porn when they entered their credit card details - by simple use of The Wayback Machine, Duncan clearly identified what had been fabricated, and where.

That article (and this topic) are IMHO one of the top five most important issues about the Net as a whole you will ever read.