Important! Adult shops, clubs and services in SL

??? I wanna know what happened to this thread...
This was an impressive mature discussion about how to protect both minors and SL's diverse adult sectors at the same time. Why did it move past the solutions we could actually achieve, through the complex ones there never was any hope for, and into a tired old debate about moral values ?
Come on people... we ALL want a general forum, but I can promise you as a VB forum asst. admin, straying like this is the quickest way to lose what we have.

Yes I have. Right in this very thread.


Perhaps we can talk LL into creating a seperate continent to banish you to, so that you won't accidentally run into a neighbor's lumber and topiary brushing together inappropriately.

Lewis, a quick question for you:

Why should your mores trump everyone else's? Give me a reason other than your religion, as there's no reason I can see that your particular faith should outweigh a pagan's.

That road leads to "because God's plan applies to everyone, whether they believe it or not."

Let's not go there.

Deal.

(Of course, by that logic, the plan of every god applies to every mortal, which means most of us are very very screwed.)

Lewis peed in it.

Now you know why he doesn't get invited to pool parties anymore.

Silly Coyote, logic is the tool the devil uses to delude poor innocent sheep to leave the flock. Any that practice 'logic' should be considered unclean and shouldn't be among the pure.

As far as I'm concerned, minors on the grid should be escorted out when found. If someone is going to display something amazingly shockingly graphic, then perhaps putting a fence and a disclaimer around it might be polite, but not required "by law".

I prefer PG areas in SL, and tend to stick to them most of the time. That doesn't mean I want to build walls.

As I understood the rules, even in mature areas, 'adult activities and images' should be inside a building, rather than on open display for all to see.

Also, any 'public information' such as names, groups, details or pictures on profile, must conform to 'PG' standards.

(by the way, I almost sent an email at work today signed "Lewis"... do you think I'm playing SL too much?)

Lewis

Community Standards
5. Indecency
Second Life is an adult community, but Mature material is not necessarily appropriate in all areas (see Global Standards below). Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or violence, or anything else broadly offensive must be contained within private land in areas rated Mature (M). Names of Residents, objects, places and groups are broadly viewable in Second Life directories and on the Second Life website, and must adhere to PG guidelines.

I do not agree with your interpretation.

To me, the above states "contained within private land"... not "contained AND within private land"

Community Standards
5. Indecency
Second Life is an adult community, but Mature material is not necessarily appropriate in all areas (see Global Standards below). Content, communication, or behavior which involves intense language or expletives, nudity or sexual content, the depiction of sex or violence, or anything else broadly offensive must be contained within private land in areas rated Mature (M). Names of Residents, objects, places and groups are broadly viewable in Second Life directories and on the Second Life website, and must adhere to PG guidelines.

According to Lewis, I guess that means all homosexuals too.
From my perspective, it applies to Lewis' religion.

Why isn't this thread locked yet?

/139/bb/150827/1.html#post1343213

[...]

The Lore regarding Lilith, Adams First wife comes from Signifigantly Older text that what We know today as the Bible (I am Unsure but she May be Covered within either the Torah, or the Talmud, I read translations of them Many Years ago, But i can't say for Certain she was Referenced there). There are Thousands of Alternative or Companion texts recounting all the Events of what is now referred to as the Old Testement, The Dead Sea Scrols and the more recently discovered "Testement of Judas" being just two examples. They ALL date from approximately the same Era, Give or take a Few Centuries and are contemporary with the text that make up the Old Testement, but in Details they do not always agree. The Apocrapha, as they are sometimes called, are a continuous source of theological discourse, and debate among the Hierarchies of All Judeo-Christian Faiths as they DO form a record of the founding histories, and beliefs of that shared faith.

Not germain to the thread as a whole, But i hope it peques your Interest in Further Study.

Angel.

Those that have required a response regarding my beliefs have been sent PM's so as to prevent people dragging this thread further off its original subject.

Jopsy... I interpret "contained" as "inside", not "on". It's my understanding, at least when dealing with Lindens, that you can't put a 40x40 porno picture on the outside of your building. At least, those that I have seen haven't lasted for long.

Lewis

It's LL's discretion... the standard of 'vulgar/obscene' and consequences for showing it may be entirely different depending on which Linden encounters the 'vulgar or obscene' material.

Being indoors may improve the odds of getting away with it.
But getting away with it doesn't imply legality.

Nothing in the ToS or CS says bumping pixels needs to stay indoors:

CONDUCT BY USERS OF SECOND LIFE

4.1 You agree to abide by certain rules of conduct, including the Community Standards and other rules prohibiting illegal and other practices that Linden Lab deems harmful.

...

In addition to abiding at all times by the Community Standards, you agree that you shall not: (i) ... (ii) ... (iii) ... (iv) take any action or upload, post, e-mail or otherwise transmit Content as determined by Linden Lab at its sole discretion that is harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, causes tort, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy, hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

There are many parallels between first and second life when the ToS comes into play.

You couldn't stand in the middle of Wal-Mart and have sex in the frozen food aisle - so why should people be able to do the same thing virtually, in the middle of an SL mall? I've personally never really understood why people feel so free to do things they'd never even consider doing in real life in SL; perhaps it's just the anonymity for some, but for me if I was to do something I'd never do in RL I'd still feel guilty for doing it in a virtual sense. I guess it's the same reason many people who are in long term relationships of some description don't see an online relationship as "cheating".

I do however fully agree that most of it is down to the particular 'interpretation' of the Linden who receives the complaint, having seen many blatantly offensive things in-world left untouched, and perfectly innocent things blasted. But it's not just SL; in World of Warcraft I named my character after my home TSO City "Jolly Pines" and called him "Jolypynez" to make it sound a little RP-ish. According to a GM there, if you say 'pynez' (pines) fast, quietly, in a funny accent, in the middle of some roadworks with a passing brass band and a low flying aeroplane overhead, then it may sound ever-so-slightly like "penis" and is not allowed, so I had to change my character's name.

Lewis

You've really missed the entire point of SL then, haven't you sweetie?

I am all for some other rating system, even possibly another region rating if necessary on the condition that if someone is required to move to a new sim, LL takes care of the details and swaps land for land including objects, plot size and traffic counts at no cost.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the law is very loose when it comes down to rendered pixels. Also, when I was in TSO, though the capacities were limited, sex was there as well, there were escorts and the like. Sex is a normal thing in society it is just not taught properly in school, when I was in high school, we had what, 1 class on sex then all they wanted to do was to play senseless sports that involve chasing a ball and bashing into someone else. In modern society, sex is a taboo. In some survey I had read, the majority of those polled would rather see a girl getting gutted with a knife by a man than to see that same couple engaging in sexual activities. In everyday life, I find it more disturbing that movies like Silent Hill are touted yet soft-core porn is a big no no...

By and large I agree with Ishtara, to continue this is to risk opening a can of worms. In other words don't force your political or religious views down other peoples throats. Live and let live within very broad limits

I also have some sympathy with Desmond Chang, but would caution that as Second Life gets bigger and bigger it "may" be not a bad idea to enable landowners to turn on or off some type of X rated grade on their land. That removes policing from Linden Labs and is consistent with their expressed desire not to become involved resolving disputes, but is more in line with a common carrier approach that is safest. If G Linden (Linden Legal Advisor) reads this I refer you to the recent Californian legal decision regarding BBs and legal liability. Good legal news in general.

In real life I have to deal with issues of macro politics and religion because it affects peoples money, and in general money is closer to their hearts!! I always say to people it has nothing to do with xyz view or political event, it is how it may affect the bourses tomorrow. Then it never causes arguments over different world viewpoints

Surely in Second Life we are mature enough to accept there are people here with many different views and outlooks, and who use this platform for many different purposes from pure first life business to total fantasy role-play. Live and let live within very broad limits is my motto, I think anyone who states different is risking digging a hole for themselves

Just a personal view

Regards

John

Not really. In SL, I build and landscape. It's something I could do in RL, but in SL it's so much easier; no expensive equipment, all I need is a mouse.

Right now, I'm in the middle of moving house. Do you have any idea how much easier it would be if I could just right click Take to inventory, then drag it out at the other end and manipulate it into place by dragging some little arrows?

I guess that, whilst there are many things I could do with SL, I don't because they don't have any interest to me. Yes, I fly which obviously I can't do in RL, but I don't pretend I'm an animal, I don't go to casinos, I don't feel a desire to dye my hair green, I don't want to dress up in a leather catsuit with my arse hanging out, I don't need to go round shooting people.

I'm sure there are things that I do in SL that I wouldn't necessarily do in reality, but that's more due to the fact I'm shy and not a party animal or outgoing person, rather than because I think they're wrong.

Lewis

So, it's that you understand why you would want to do things you wouldnt necessarily do IRL, but you don't want to afford anyone else that luxury because you think what they want to do is wrong.

Thanks for the clarification.

Which is really pointless to this thread, for which I apologize. The point is, Lewis has won really, and by accepting the current TOS you are now part of All-Ages SL. Like everything else that gets borked in updates around here, we're just going to have to learn to live with it, because the Linden Gods have made it so, regardless of what you think. Tweens mean money, and thats all thats really important here.
If you want truly adult content you'd better start locking it away behind as much verification as you personally can figure out on your own island, charge admission to enter, and require acceptance of a disclaimer that absolves you of liability when Jr.'s mommy finally figures out what he's doing in SL.
And then the adult content of SL will go where people like Lewis has always forced it to go, and we will be one step further from "Your World, Your Imagination" and heading where LL wants SL to go... Mall 2.0.

To be honest, I think we actually all lost.

Whilst I do not particularly feel a need to mourn the loss of adult content, certainly there is a general feeling of ongoing 'dumbing down' of SL, creativity is going, and more and more bland malls and advertising as real world corporations slowly invade SL, not to be part of the community, but merely as cheap product exposure, spoonfed lies from people like ESC, MofU and RRR who lead them to believe that they're actually welcome here.

I think most people would actually tend to agree with anything in this post past "certainly".

Lewis

*cough* back to topic?

Judge not lest ye be judged.

You do realize that because of free will, these choices are ours to make and that condemning them is a sin? God's plan was to let everyone make thier own choices and explicitly states that God will deal with them when the time comes. (No, I'm not a God fearing religion, but I've studied plenty when I was in search of one.) Hey Lewis, do you play SL on Saturdays? Watch TV? Work? Then you are an abomination!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20061120/cm_usatoday/whenreligionlosesitscredibility

That's a very interesting read, written by a minister.

K, that aside, I've said my peace on that part.

As for the rest of the thread, regardless of why or how or who, there are games with less eeky content than SL that still require 18 years and up to cover them and thier users bootys (as it were). I'm actually sad to see the ToS change so legally into removing the blame.

So it has to go somewhere's, right? While the ToS says whatever it wants about content, there is a legal loop hole in all this.

No minor can enter a contract without thier parent's formal consent in the US, so when that kid is saying they are 18 or whatever, regardless of accepting the ToS, it's null and invalid for anyone under 18.

There are cases out there that have won on that technicality alone, regardless of morality of it. (Some say the law was put in place to keep anyone under 18 from marrying or entering a 'contract' of the sort without parental consent and that the minor does reach the maturity to make the decision til it's thrust upon them on thier 18th birthday.) That law alone needs to be updated and clarified but it's nowhere on the list as of right now.

All that revision in the ToS does is allow a suit not only to be named to SL, but to the content owner to share responsibility in it.

And I certainly do NOT agree. But then I've no idea who these "ESC, MofU and RRR" are. Frankly, it's nice to see what some professional organizations can accomplish.... and I've seen some even hiring "local" artists to accomplish their objectives which, if anything, is a boon to the community.

What you take as "dumbing down of SecondLife", I see more as an "enthusiastic naievity" on the part of new residents who will undoubtedly repeat many of the blunders and gaffs we did when we were still new.

But back on topic...
Mourning the loss of adult content would seem a bit premature. Adult shops, clubs and services are here to stay. Some may retreat to private sims and turn into invitation only affairs in order to avoid scrutiny or risk of arbitrary LL action...

But new clubs will pop up in (M) areas faster than LL will be able to quash them, even if LL decides to pursue such a thing. LL has clearly shown they do NOT want to be content moderators, they're trying to orchestrate a way out of that role so that they don't get lost down that deep unpaying hole of many labor hours, legal liabilities and which would only end up angering paying customers into quitting.

Vulgarity/obsenity in PG areas is cut and dried simple. Vulgarity/obsenity in M areas requries more thought and consideration. If they fail to follow up on an 'vulgarity AR' in a mature area... is it neglect? The angry party has the option to relocate. If LL does take action and censors someone in an (M) area it can be perceived as persecution. Lovely.


Perhaps as covenants and estates improve... a new type of land may evolve into being... 'Community Managed Space' where land ownership is more like mainland ownership and less tenuous as estate management is, but a 'home owners assocation' has the rights to levy fines against parcel owners in their space that they decide have violated code.

It's unlikely that I'd bother living in such an area, but I could see the appeal.


--
Jaded-ness exists only in the eye of the beholder.

Being dumbed down is not a result of the adult content nor the addition of RL extensions of companies, in fact the incursion of RL companies is what will help SL and it's future counterparts become the next internet. Without their interest in a platform such as this, SL and any other worlds will not set the framework for the next version of the internet. If it weren't for corporate/education interest in the internet as a whole, we would still be using it in a very primitive interface, most likely still text. Without the interest of corporations in the internet we wouldn't have the vast number of positive things it has brought with it such as the ability to research anything we want to without the limitations of a local library's stock. We have to use the abilities we were given to filter out the unwanted parts.

Perhaps it isn't a case of being dumbed down, but more of a case where the majority of a population has access to the same information store and therefore has the ability to be on the same playing field as everyone else with the information they have access to. Here is an example:
Bob went to college for 4 years for a technical degree. Bob is smart, Bob has knowledge. Tim on the other hand did not go to college but rather had access to the same information that Bob did via the internet as well as a plethora of other information from a vast collection of people from other countries. In a full out test of skill and knowledge in the same subject, Tim can perform just as well as Bob. Bob feels like he was dumbed down while in school. Was Bob dumbed down? There was a time when Bob would have been above Tim in the same subject because Bob went to college and gained the academic edge, but this is the modern times, colleges are becoming more and more useless as far as the ability to obtain knowledge. All colleges are useful for now are to gain the piece of white paper so that the old school business people will even look at your resume. With the internet you cannot only find a subject that appeals to you but also find a learning method that suits your style of learning.