Important! Adult shops, clubs and services in SL

Is that a triumph post? I thought there was this little thing about "naming names" in the forums, too..

*sigh*

He was participating in this thread, so it is relevant to know that he won't be following up to responses here.

It sounds like Lewis has already made the particulars of his case public somewhere anyway.

I would have said something earlier, but

1. I figured this thread was soooo locked
2. The only thing I could think to say at the time was pretty inflamatory

Suffice it to say that I am satisfied that the correct action was taken.

Thank you.

Pity, Lewis and i had begun an Interesting private discourse, and i was Looking forward to continuing it. We didn't agree on a Number of Topics, But i always look forward to Civilized debate. But i CAN see where Lewis Was Pushing the Envelope a Bit.

Back to Topic,


As i said above, "But as Adults, i think we need to learn to Accept Reality. and the existing Reality of SL IS that there Is a Chance that Minors will enter the grid, and Seek out any adult Material available"
The Reality is, No such Tools exist, Yes, It would be nice if they had some kind of Flashing Red Banner "WARNING!! MINOR!!" But the reality is, There is NO truely effective means of Identifying Minors, (NO, NOT EVEN CC VERIFICATION!) so, we are left to do the best we can with what we have, and Wishing, and Hoping, and saying "It would be nice If...." is Not going to change that fact. So, what ARE you going to do? Your choices seem to be either "Do nothing, and hope for the best." Or "Place an additional Warning/Disclaimer at your properties edge to Limit your liability." or "Chuck the whole thing and open a Convent." Best choice to me seems to be #2, Most effect, Least Inconvenience. All that is required under the Law is that we do What is within our Power to prevent minors from viewing age Inapropriate materials in areas directly under our control. All that IS within our Power (And we have ample proof of it) is the ability to add secondary warnings. See how quick and Painless being responsible can be?

Angel.

Angel.

There is a thing called teleport routing. There is a thing called notecard givers and disclaimer images. Why should LL have to intervene? What do you need signatures for and silly petitions?

Plus, if a child pays your for your prostitution schemes, couldn't you argue that you were mislead because the payment info they used belonged to their parents? If they don't use payment info, you are either a cheap hooker and/or they are kiddies.

When I am able to log back into SL (hopefully tomorrow), I am going to put up a warning on my land reminding people that 1. It is an adult-oriented area 2. It is a Mature-Rated Sim 3. The Grid is Only for Adults. But that is self-evident, n'est-ce pas? It makes no difference how many signs or how many layers. And I can't imagine that it will get any better while there are unverifieds (I have nothing against unverified adults, but it is a plain fact of the matter that any kid over 13 can figure out how to register a free account-- or 10 free accounts-- on the main grid now.) My advertisements have always said "Adults Only"-- BUT the grid has always been "Adults Only."

Yes, but the Important point under the Law is, Those existing warnings are intended for the protection of LL, NOT you, and TOS has affirmed this, But you didn't rely on those warnings, YOU took Proactive steps yourself to the absolute best of your resources. Liability Negated.

All the Liability now rests with the Minor, and the Parent. the Only two in the Blame Chain who Cannot post a sign saying "I'm not responsible".

Isn't Law a Fascinating Study?

Angel.

Actually, if a parent has no knowledge and the minor agrees to the ToS, the law loophole is it can apply to them.

No child can enter a binding contract (which for legal purposes, the ToS is) without physical consent of parent or guardian.

Therefore, even if that kid is 17 and clicks ok... the ToS doesn't apply. This has been the strongest argument in many cases in situations similiar to this one (I.E. in gaming arenas and such).

Gotta love the judicial system in America!

I'm not sure why you're misreading me here, as I've already said in this thread that what I actually did was set up a notecard giver and lock the teleporter to group.

I'm not claiming this is a black and white issue which can be perfectly solved. But I had already downgraded the content in the skybox, and the total lack of age verification is just one more reason I'm glad I did. There are age verification services on the Internet that do make people go through some hoops to get verified, and I'd like to see a service like this provided by a business in SL; I think they'd have a market. So the problem is not easily solvable... but it is solvable.

I'd like to improve the odds beyond mere chance. Letter of the law responsibility isn't good enough for me, and it won't be good enough for a lot of people. We will certainly respond by self-consorship, and this is not unreasonable. If I think there are minors on the grid, I'm not going to leave XXX material out unattended in the skybox. You may find this decision annoying, but I don't limit my sense of responsibility to what the law compels, but rather to what my honor demands.

Outstanding angle on the problem... there's got to be some way to tie LSL's http request into at least one of the numerous existing adult check services out there.

Hopefully it's only a matter of time until there are a number of voluntary certification processes available to merchants that want better proof of age before doing business.

Do we need to verify every step and register with Third-Parties because one body of players needs legal protection? F-that for sure. Plus who's going to take you to court? A teen who was found to be having some explicit multi-sexual monkey business online? I would worry about suicide rates rather than court dates. Pfft.

Not sure if you're replying to me... or someone else above...

My suggestion was that for Merchants that WANT that extra guarantee, they could, (theoretically), find some way to require their customers to register with one of the several already existing adult verification web services... and use something like HTTP Request to validate their own customers.

Customers that can't be bothered with the process won't be able to shop from those merchants.... but they'd be able to do whatever else they like in SL.

It's about giving merchants and customers the option to ask for or provide additional age verification data, without mandating that everyone change how they access SL.

Thank you! I can see how it would work now... I hope someone, who is able to set something like this up, will try it.

For heavens sake ... WHY BOTHER??

Daisy- Taking you literally... and not knowing exactly what your "Why Bother??" is referencing... here's an attempt to provide a comprehensive answer.


Why bother... selling adult material?
Because folks want to and/or find it profitable.


Why bother... worrying about minors?
Because some feel there is a risk of being held legally accountable for selling virtual adult material to them.


Why bother... implemeting a hook to use 3rd party adult verification services?
See the answer to "why bother worrying"


Why bother... having adult material around at all?
I've no idea... I find enough other things interesting without it, but... people can be pervy purveyors.


Why bother... with anything at all?
Because 'nothing' gets boring quickly.

Yes, but Under the Law IF the child Misrepresents themselves as being Over 18, the other Signatory is signing the Contract in Good faith, Liability drops right back into thier laps, And the Laps of thier Parent or Guardian. The reason, the Minor has purpetrated a Fraud, and They Cannot Benefit from a Fraud, This includes the Ability to seek legal redress.

A.

If people were required to verify themselves (such as with a credit card, etc.), this wouldn't really be an issue. When people can create accounts with fake information that doesn't really link back to themselves, it's a problem.


I signed up not too long ago, and I was really suprised at the fact that I could start an account without credit card information. I appreciate LL's open minded trust as much as I appreciate open source materials, but non-validated account creations is just asking for trouble such as with minors.

The free basic account that requires a verified CC is still free and offers better protection to everyone involved. The free account that does not require validation is...well, as I already stated, it's asking for trouble.


~Domneth

One would like to think so of our judicial system, but wrong. This is happening all around us in small courts and large.

Techincally, since they can't be held to the contract, they haven't committed fraud. Stupid? ABSOLUTELY!!!! But is it possible? Yes.

You can hold the parents responsible for the actions of the minor.

Sure, if he does something like hold up a gas station. That's not the same as entering contracts and breaking them, however the purpose may be.

But not in the virtual world, where they are 'signing' a contract that states they are who they are without having anything in place to verify the age.

(For some reason I keep getting the movie Liar, Liar in my head! Where she signs the prenup at 17, marries at 18 and ends up keeping buttloads of cash because a minor can't enter a contract... It's getting late.)

Now if a parent DOES know about it then tries something, the parent can get charged with Contributing to the Deliquency of a Minor.

Right now, the laws are NOT very clear in these instances which is how these suits are allowed to proceed, they sue in the grey areas because most in Congress don't have a clue about what should or could be done.

Angelique has expressed what I was thinking. Apart from the doubtfulness of any legal case, who is going to bring it, anyway? You would have to have online witnesses of a minor buying stuff from you, and I don't see it happening. In any case, you, personally, even in-game, don't transact with any minor. You put up a vending machine and leave it there. It's already in an adults-only area. You have no responsibility for trespassing minors going up to your vending machine.

One could make this analogy: supposing you owned a RL sex shop. Suppose a 15-year-old delinquent broke into your shop. Would you be prosecuted for "selling" him stuff he stole?

A little less paranoia, please!

if a 15 year old girl, passed as 18, convinced the owner of a whorehouse she was 18.. and even provided false documentation to "prove" her age...

Would the johns still be guilty of statutory rape?
Would the whorehouse owner be liable for exploitation?

Let's not mince words here.. sex in SL is a performance art. And if the other person on the other end is a minor.. there's serious issues at play here. Don't let yourselves get bogged down on "who would sue?" because the answer is.. The State. This wouldn't be a civil case, it would be a criminal one.

No in both cases because the requirement isn't to be 100% certain of age but to show you made a reasonable effort with the information at your disposal.

If everything that happens is confined to SL, and they were aware of the real age, the crime actually committed is solliciting a minor for sex (may or may not be a crime if it happens online depending on where you live; it doesn't matter who initiated in this case though, the adult is always the one solliciting), and encouraging a minor to commit indecent/lewd acts (again may or may not be an actual crime if it happens online only).

Of course, whether or not anyone was aware of the age would only turn up during an investigation at which point a lot of the damage has already been done.

If I were to accost said 15 year old in RL I could ask for RL proof of age. If I didn't and entered relations there would be an actual act with forensic evidence, witnesses etc. I would clearly be in the s**t.

If I meet an anonymous avatar in SL I can ask them if they are 18. No more than that. If they say yes how can I argue? If I progress to cybering I'm physically nowhere near them "Honest Judge, I never laid a finger on her!"

It's very confusing. Site owners/managers have no more protection than asking as in last para. How can we be liable?

Well if I were on the jury, I would vote not guilty.