nix on gambling? Watch the populations flee

So let's clear up the myths as you might know so it seems and speak human language. We don't own things correct? As i buy something i just don't own it because i can't own stuff. Land is not mine, objects are just not mine. Correct?

I am reading this and I am seeing many are not getting the point in all this. I never cared for casino's either, but when I was a newbie I camped in them. I even danced on a pole getting paid in tips. All in casino's. I didn't play the slots. Over time I was able to buy new skin, shape, clothing, ..and expanded. So, I took that money I made from working...and guess where it went??.....in went into SL community, malls...stores...Even to renting a small place.

Of course as I looked better, I was able to get better jobs, but I started by newbie camping. Thats gone.

Simply by removing Casinos, ..its going to have a ripple effect. Everyone does get hurt. Every store owner...club owner...EVERYBODY.

People worried of stock exchange for lindens...better sell out now and watch the economy really drop. This is just the beginning. Next money maker...Escorts, ...ok..remove them...Even more malls...and business's will close. Facts are facts...Three top money sources have been.... Real estate, casino's...and Sex... Keep pushing it, and there isn't going to be an SL to worry about.. They just bit themselves in the ass, and within a few weeks it'll ripple and hurt many people. No matter how you look at it, money was spent in the community from the casinos, ...in every way possible...the domino effect has just begun. It's bound to hurt more then casino owners.

You don't need to multi-post, Mystique Chambers

actually didn't mean too...booboo on my part. Sorry..

You own the intellectual property rights to anything you create, which is the big selling point LL has always advertised.

As far as dealings between you and other players, that depends on the terms of sale - but ultimately, you can only own a thing as long as you are an active member of SL. If you quit SL, for example, you can't take things with you.

With land, no. Its akin to renting a server from a web host. It's "yours", and you can basically do what you want with it, but you are always subject to both the laws of the land where the web severs physically reside and where the company doing the hosting is incorporated, as well as any additional terms and conditions they decide to impose on you. As well, they still own the software and hardware. What you are paying for is bandwidth, storage space, the right to host content and have it accessed, and administration of the same.

Designers and builders don't get hurt. This actually opens up more jobs, and more opportunities to create. Am I wrong?

That is what im thinking too.

Maybe it where better for LL to move to another country

but we will see what brings the future i think there will be no good future for LL now..

So why can't i play roulette on a roulette i own?

I'm afraid the oposite will happen, many skilled game developers will use this as an oportuniny to enter other markets, now that brings more competition something that will have a negative effect on those currently settled in those markets. The upside perhaps a lower cost for everybody to hire scripters and hosts, since ppl now need jobs again. Your landprice may drop. And depending on what market you're in typically clothes and luxury creators will notice decline in sales, the reason: "what comes easy, is easier to spend on impulse" much of the impulse buys you were getting were directly caused by casinos payouts, one can ofcourse question how big impact this will have, i think it will be noticable. I find it ridiculous to see the so called "anti-casino haters" laughing as if it served them, the lag wont go away, sales will decline, everybody is affected. My view is people should unite to improve the way linden labs is communicating big changes to us, some ppl will say "shoot first and ask questions later", i disagree with that it failed in iraq and it will fail in a virtual world aswell.

You can play roulette all you like.

Just not for money, with other people.

I agree with you Andy...100%

People are not seeing the ripple effect of what this is going to cause. Bottom line is Lindens in the end hurt more then the casino owners and players that were winning. It effected a wide spectrum of players down to the new guy...all the way up to the big ticket items.

Even Linden themselves are going to hurt over this. They maybe telling themselves it won't but it will.

Since we are speculating about possible effects on the economy, and you bring up those players that were winning, what do you suppose will happen with the money that players were losing to casinos?

I suppose it's possible that those players will simply leave SL, their leaving will have a negligible effect if that's all they ever spent money on, but I personally suspect most won't just leave.

I'm very very curious how this is all gonna play out in the next month or two.

.

if horse racing legal can we play the horse race game?

EDIT: Before i get some stupid reply, for money

Shameless plug - you may buy one of my Hot Gold Thingie v2's - just released yesterday! If you don't like it, I still keep the money

face it, depending on where someone lives..everything is illegal!! Even the air we breath is regulated, the water we drink is too. What was ok and quite legal 20 years ago, illegal now. I am waiting for flatulance to be illegal now, and I bet that is even illegal in some places...LOL..

Despite what you may or may not feel about gambling....
Despite what your views on camping are....
Despite if you agree or disagree with the stock exchanges
Despite how you feel about on line banks

Second life operates on micro-economics. Any large hit to the population or the economy is bad. I dont care what you think about Ginko, but the fact is 200m linden or about 600kUSD is sitting in it. Let that number sink in for a second. Its huge. If ginko where to go poof overnight a doomsday scenario that people have stated would happen for years, but has not what type of effect would it have.

You would see the various people on the forums cheering and saying I told you so, but what about the guy who's been saving all his sales in ginko the guy who lost 5kUSD do you really think he would be interested in sticking with second life? Linden numbers on the website are inflated. Sure there are 9m registered accounts, but how many of them are active? Or Alts
How many of them contribute? How many of them are even premium members? How many of them have bought your stuff? Unfortunately something like this effects those productive members....

In researching online poker in second life, we figure the poker community sits at around 3,000 people. With about 200-500 heavily active these people will not continue in second life if not given an alternative. Thats a nice hit to the economy of spending users.

What about the slingo players, sploder hoppers, slot freaks... Yes ive seen them all. There are now slots er where.. that operate on real world payout odds of 93-98% in some cases thats better than you get at a real casino. People liked these, ive personally seen 500USD dumped into these machines by one person. Do you think he's coming back? She had nice skin, and nice clothing, and accessories, and gadgets, and a house, and a little land...
And she played a lot of slots, and sometimes was very much ahead of the game. Sometimes she was down.... But sometimes she got all excited when she hit a large hit and went on a shopping spree.... in the end, she just about broke even if not came out a bit ahead. Yes in the end she would pay money to play, but lets face it... don't we all.
Ok so yea she made the owner in the end...20-30$..... but she played a lot, and was there for hours and SHE FELT THAT IT WAS VALUE FOR HER MONEY. I don't think she's happy that you are now telling her what she can and cant do with her cash.... None the less her cash is gone.... Another sale to other industries lost.

How many empty malls are there in second life? How many shops barely make rent? How many fail.... Do you really think these people's experience will IMPROVE by loosing 10% of the productive users of second life?

What about the people who invested in these companies, the game makers, or the honest casino's or even the support industries how many hundreds of thosands of real world dollars flows through the stock exchange in second life... How many people where burned.
How many of them wont come back?

I am VERY familiar with the Anti Gambling Acts in the US as I used to work as a developer for an off shore casino/pokerhouse/news reporting system for the poker world/poker school. Second life itself skates by with the "lindens are not money and have no value"
The FBI does not make decisions on the law, they enforce it. If LL was not brought into court to defend or if the FBI did not shut them down. The simple fact of the matter is this loophole may be enough. The problem is, if its not enough....

The entire platform is in danger as it is an ACT OF TREASON in the united states to operate a currency other than USD...

Before this was all possible cause it was play money.... Now that defense is falling apart, and if you don't think that means the banks, or the stock exchange or paypal processing into linden labs is in jeopardy due to this, your insane.

Its a bad presidence to set, there now backtracking on the no value clause. Now while they may have to due to pressure already, this bodes very poor on the future.
Nobody should be cheering this decision. Nobody.

Yes exactly Chao Mu I fully agree!

Well while I fully understand the need for Linden Labs to protect their interests with regard to legal liability due to the servers being housed in CA and TX, there is something terribly wrong with this picture.

Many people have invested huge amounts of 1st life money to purchase land on those servers and build and maintain business. And as previously stated, Linden Labs has been very happy to collect teir every month from these folks and the others who have totally unrelated businesses from clothing to prefabs and furniture and everything in between that are to some degree supported either directly or indirectly by the gambling industry in SL.

Its hardly ethical to write a policy that overnight shuts down an entire industry!!!

Truth is that everyone who produces a product, buys and sells land, or invests in the SL economy in some way or another, be it products or services, is in some way affected by this action and really not one of us has been given a adequate voice in possible solutions to the very real problem that exists with the known legal issues.

Was/ IS there a better solution? Could for example servers be located somewhere else where gambling is legal? Who knows- I certainly dont. But I do know that there are a lot of residents who contribute to the Sl economy that enjoy gaming. And, I do know that there are an even greater number that while they may not gamble or even like gambling that also benefit from the real money (not "play money"- the play money in SL is there because someone spent Real money to place it there) that this industry brings in.

You cannot simply eliminate an industry and not feel the shockwaves throughout every industry in the grid! Hello!!!

The real issue is that there needs to be more consideration by Linden Labs for the PEOPLE that support and contribute to this economy.

Overnight changes that affect all of us economically should not happen with out resident participation and collaboration in the process of change- these people should have been given an opportunity to make necessary changes to protect their assets and investments. In fact, all of us should have been given that opportunity. Its really not good to bite the hand that feeds.

It is wrong - no matter your opinion of gambling- it is wrong to shut down overnight what you have allowed for years and reaped much profit from allowing. To do so without the participation and collaboration of those affected in the solution process, and without making every effort to find an equitable solution for all, and without giving time to those who will be affected to make the necessary changes that they need to make to ensure the preservation of their initial investments is horrendous and really in my opinion should be an absolute outrage to everyone of us!

They do need to give warning and in many cases I think that these places can convert to something else and still have fun. At the same time LL doesn't actually look at this platform as a business application that kinda just happened so maybe they dont always make decisions based on this.

Obviously if they feel pressure on their end regarding laws they have to do what they have to do and such. Camping well that will get offloaded elsewhere as to me it does serve a purpose for those who dont feel they can afford to buy lindens although its questionable the demand on the computer iin comparison to lindens earned if its actually of any benefit at all, but people need to do things in their own way

Gambling well a huge part of sl never gambles but at the same time there were people who came here only to gamble. Do they influence the rest of the economy its possible but I dont know many people who only use SL to gamble, but I do have a few upset friends over sploders because they like to do the night life thing again these friends also buy lindens and find camping to be useless

The one who does need to be thought of though is the casino owner. There are some casinos I can' think of extreme for isntance that has several sims. I dont know what he is going to convert to but I can't see chilly charleton as anything but a casino owner that's what he is to me in my head even though he is a good scripter etc as well he is known for his product which is machines and games only found in one place and he is known for his nightlife.

So I didn't go to the protest mainly because it didn't seem appropriate where they were protesting this thing because LL is reacting to something obviously.

Anyhow I'm not sure how many casino owners are interested in operating other types of things but there are options and I"m not sure how much warning would have done anything. Phasing out gambling would be better though the announcement is here so if they phase it out it will give people time to convert to other things and still (i'm not srue if they do bring in income but if they do ) bring in income

anyhow these are my thoughts and this thread kinda is in the wrong section so i assume it will be moving soon

Is gambling going yes and I can see why as can most people it should be phased out though but how does one phase something out in a place where they really can't control the speed at which gambling decreases?

So I guess a 90 day warning would be best and at that point shut it all down at once people will still scream though and act like they didn't know even if they did. IN any event casino owners have to convert t another type of gaming experience or passtime activity there are options and it doesn't all have to be "sex"

question on one small piece of this discussion ... alternative currencies. I believe local currencies are fine in the US as long as their use is constrained to those within a certain community ... e.g., as long as Lindens can only be spent within SL. It is find to convert between the two, US and local currencies. Just not to set up a local currency as a national alternative to the US dollar. Don't know the fine details, but it is being done in Lawrence, KS, Ithaca NY and the Berkshires: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11867279

If this applies to L$, then it's not tragic if LL admits the L$ have real value. Of course, then it becomes more incumbent on them to not nullify people's assets overnight like this ....

More than happy to learn otherwise if others know more about this.

If SL is going to be a 3d world wide web someday, then the $L needs to be replaced with real world currency eventually. It won't be a bad thing when it happens. It will mean more money for content creators, and it will be easier for new users (consumers) to buy things.

Well I know who will be laughing when taxes come into place at second life. Real life currencies will be taxed no?

Those objects will be removed and you loose all your money and you loose your land and will get a lethal injection or something like that is what I read on roulette.

If theres no pay event in the script, it's fine. You just aren't allowed to wager on it.

Actually, a lot of people already pay taxes on our SL earnings.