Step 1: Eliminate the Basic Membership lindens giveaway effective now!

Eliminate the Basic stipend? Not on my watch, you won't!

I'm Basic, have been since Halloween (my start date), never bought (or sold) a single L$, and have no plans on doing so in the near future.

I am also employed here in SL as a Tringo host. However, it doesn't pay any hourly wage (I wanted experience, so it's a good choice).

If I want something, most of the time, I'll try to build it myself. I'll only buy things I can't make, or can't script for (haven't learned scripting yet, but I plan to as soon as I get up to snuff on building).

I have also never built anything I've found worthy enough of sale, but I tested and marked one item I've made as being purchasable, and it's actually sold a few copies (surprises the @#$% outta me, that's for sure).

I also had a fairly healthy Slingo addiction. While I never originally put into pots, I made that up by being more generous with contributions after a win.

I also rent an apartment, and buy things I can't make yet, such as animations (a Multi-Animation Tool and animations for it set me back nearly 8K).

However, even with all this activity, I've still amassed a comfortable level of funds for my experience to be enjoyable, and most of it's sitting and earning more.

Should the stipend be cut, however, I'll probably have to either

A) Become stingier with my expenditures, or
B) Sell some of the items I've made that I don't think are REALLY worth it.

And neither are really pleasant thoughts...

Can you fill us in a bit on the models that work in your store, how you pay them, how much you pay them, what you do? Because modelling in stores is something I've suggested as a possible job in SL a number of times... it seems like an obvious solution to the problem of people being unable to see what clothes really look like. I'm awful interested in how it's working in RSL (Real Second Life).

I think free accounts are fine to show people the game but they are also being abused terribly. When free accounts sit in camping chairs and take away from server resources while giveing nothing back, they need to go...

Personally I think free accounts should have zero linden and not be able to change that. They can explore, check out free stuff and see what the game is about to decide it they are willing to spring a few bucks to have a basic or better account.

People who are paying to play this game should not be put out by free account holders ever.

I find it so funny how so this thread keeps goin and goin and goin.. I'm a basic acct user... and of course the premuim users ALWAYS assume that basic users do not give back to sl.. well your wrong! I've plunked alot of money in this game and I rent land from a premium owner.. why?? I wish not to own land, so if anything they should change the accounts. The only difference between me and a premium user is the owning of land.. which btw I could if I really wanted to but I choose not to. I don't use camping chairs, I don't swindle money, I'm learning as I go but I also don't use this game as my primary source of income such as alot of ppl do and then complain about how much they are losing. Like someone else said in this thread, get off your arse and get a real job, or quit complaining.

Lindens should have a free basic account with limited usage. No renting of land, you can only TP to certain areas (welcome areas, newbie areas, so on) If they really want ppl to earn the $L's each week and pay for upgraded accounts then thats the way to go. Have a free basic, silver account, gold than premuim, charge different prices for different usage. Instead of griping about the stupid 50L a week, try and find a different solution that will benefit all.

I find it also funny how these older users forget how it was when they were newbies.

Oh I do remember being new to SL. There's been a change over the last 2 years though. The usually #1 question for new residents was.... "How do I build?" now it's "How do I make money?" Even after my 2 years I still dont make much money and I dont care. Perhaps because I still remember how it was, not how it is.

Just hang in there HalfPint and always remember "The only constant in SL is that there are no constants."

Exactly Toy!! The most enjoyment I get out of SL is my friends and meeting new people!

Thanks so much Toy, made me feel alot better

It's been 2 years... I haven't forgotten what it was like when I was new. Though back then it was VERY different than it is now. Used to be a one time US$10 basic account creation fee.
Now I pay 12+ times that a month in land use fees.

Do I care that Linden Labs lets people pay for free.... or collects a one time US$10 fee per account? No. Would they bring down my land use fees if they brought back the basic acct fee? No. Would we have as many new players, each with their chance of buying L$'s or becoming premium account holders? No.

People will rise or sink to their natural level. If a basic account holder doesn't aspire to much in SL other than camping chairs, they will get bored and leave before long.

Let basic accounts keep their L$50... and treat them like real human beings, not lesser creatures. Let them rent land... SOMEONE still has to pay the land use fees anyway. If the landlord gets some enjoyment or profit out of it, then why not?

If a player wants to OWN a piece of Second Life, then clearly they must upgrade. It is a clear and uncomplicated incentive.

I don't understand why anyone would want to build walls that will only end up alienating new players. Sure some new players are annoying... but they fade away, and the good ones are so worth taking a chance on. =)

Totally agree
Its only common sense, why would a basic user want to pay for something they are not going to use? That doesn't make them any lesser than a premuim user. That would be like going and buying cigarettes in r/l when you don't smoke.
Its about the people, not the money!

I saw it and I agree. I felt like kicking in the shins the critics who panned it. Enjoyed every minute of the movie.

Is this a "movie"? Hmmm.. where's my script?

Despite so many claims to the contrary (and many of them valid), Second Life boils down to an online community game. It is a form of entertainment. Yes, some people use it as a social life, yes some people merchant, etc etc. It still boils down to entertainment. Using your analogy, we're not playing a role in a movie We're the audience watching the movie and laughing when it's funny and screaming when it's scarey and crying when it's sad. Movie theatres don't typically pay their patrons to come watch their movies for free, do they?

Does being an "interactive body" in Second Life warrant payment of (to be realistic) $8 a year? (L50 * 52 = L2600= about $8US. Some of us may have miscaluclated of the top of our heads). The very nature of the game is interactive bodies, and people get that basic stippend whether they interact with people, build, script, design, merchant... or sit in camping chairs. The concept is: Linden Life isn't supposed to pay people for playing their game. People are supposed to pay them. This is a profit-oriented company. Makes no business sense to hand out (how many?) free L$ a week in an already glutted market.

Guestimate calculation: if 1/2 of 120,000 members are Basic, 60,000 * L50 = 3 mil L$ a week = ~ $11,000 US a week in free L$. Now I don't really think there are that many Basic members who get that many L$, but even if there's 1/4 of that... that's still a chunk of cash. $2,800 US * 52 weeks = $145,600 US a year???!!! Given to people for playing a game?

Lord a mercy, gimme some more alts. LOL

Interesting statements. Let's examine it a little more closely.

Agreed, the way our society conducts itself is self-destructive. No argument there. Is the way our society conducts itself the best way?

We could recycle minerals and metals. That is not self-destructive. We don't have to create toxins (case in point: alternative, non-pollutant, re-generable fuel sources as opposed to non-replenishable, toxic fossil fuel usage). Killing what we consume is not self-destructive; it may destroy other things, but they re-grow (there are always more chickens). Even then, some folks eat only vegetation, which is re-growable. Such is not self-destructive and actually benefits the environment.

We age, fall apart, die. That is not self-destructive; that's a cycle of life. We can be self-destructive by artifically accelerating that cycle. But if as a society we took care of ourselves and neighbors, we would in general live rather long lives, longer than we live even now.

Instead we poison our foods with chemicals, pollute our air, burn non-recyclable pollutant fuels, grow bacterial warfare cultures, stockpile nuclear bombs... all of which are decidedly self-destructive activities. Many would argue that our society is so far away from healthy, so far away from "common-sense", that it is likely beyond helping.

I thought camping chairs were a result of people trying to get L$ by doing nothing. Because if they wanted to get Lindens, they could get far more by visiting dance clubs and clicking on a raffle ball. So why don't they go be social and get a lot more L$ if getting L$ is their goal.

Naw, I think people use camping chairs because it's easy, period. They don't have to do anything but sit... and they get paid for it. Which is the whole issue here. You get that L50 a week whether you actually contribute to the board or not.

In actuality the whole idea of camping chairs is a little silly... and I'm sure people never really think this through to the logical conclusion. If your computer is one of those that stays on all the time anyway, there may be some validity in using camping chairs. But if people leave their computers on overnight just to gain earnings from camping chairs, I wonder if it occurs to them that they're probably paying more in electricity and computer wear and tear than they'll ever make in L$. They should figure up their electricity usage, leave the computer off and use the money to just buy L$. It's a whole lot easier and a whole lot better on the computer.

Again, it's that good ol' common sense. LOL

If they're going to remove the stipend then they'd have to require that jobs be open in SL...secondly they would ahve to enofrce paying on those jobs with a minimum wage.....there are those who are not made of money and annot afford top buy L's from the rest of you on your websites or e-bay. The biggest error linden has not made is regulating you folks who want and have it ALL. and so far I ahve been screwed on several jobs..promising pay then not giving it. Wanna fix the economy? then you gotta see that there is an economy and contribute to it.

now there's the pot calling the kettle black if I ever did see it.LOL

They also will have to lower the cost of premium or losy many premium accounts and resultant fees and tier.

And deal with lifetime members who have a contract saying they get a stipend every week.

And find some way to make jobs other than building (clothes, furniture, etc), hosting, or scripting.

I don't pay my premium fees to work a second job. I'd drop to basic.

But if you're judging SL as a game, then the argument is that the stipend (and camping chairs!) are essential because they enhance the enjoyment of the game for people who would otherwise have problems earning L$.

Also, yes, it's a profit oriented company, but oriented towards their profits. LL don't make any profit from selling L$. They make profit from selling premium conversions and being able to offer a higher stipend is a key element of that.



Well, how about this? World of Warcraft. I don't play WoW any more, but looking around on the web, WoW gold goes for about $40 for 1000 gold and a "glider" on WoW with a high level character can supposedly earn around 100 gold a day (technically playing unattended is against ToS, but presumably a dedicated player could achieve the same). 100 gold a day = 3000 a month = $120 = $105 less subscription = $1260 a year. Even assuming that only 10% of WoW players are dedicated enough to get to that stage: 3 million players * 10% = 300000 * $1260 = $378000000, after repaying those 300000 people's subscriptions. Woooooo, 378 million US$ "given" to people for "playing a game"!

I'm on Basic, I sale stuff it only way i can make cash and steady income.
Eliminate the Basic Membership lindens giveaway is dumbest Thing heared sense the Eliminate rateing system.

last time the Eliminate something moeny exchanged droped.And you guys forgot about basic makes up big part of SL for you paid people are overrated thinking this helps SL,think of long term efects and seen drop of moeny due to land gone super over priced now becease LL allowed it.

To set the scene, I'm a premium member and an ex-content creator.
OK, well the way I see it is this...

If the Basic members suddenly have no income, then they'll spend less. For many small-scale retailers, Basic members are their primary income, so these small scale sellers also now have less income.

Those of us who have money and some in world income are going to see that income dry up, some fast, some slow. Maybe the very best creators will notice little or no difference - for a while.

But soon, people are going to realise that if they're having to buy L$ with real cash, then they're going to start wanting professionally produced content for their money, and they're going to want to be able to do with it what they like! So that doesn't mean comparitively few seams showing in clothing... it will mean "customise it for the customer to make sure there are NONE" and give all rights to it, cos they may want to pass it on in future.

Basically, there will be about 3 people left in business, but nobody with enough money to buy their produce.

Sure, we don't want to turn SL into a welfare state, but on the other hand, unbridled capitalism is just as dangerous. We need the Basics, they are ultimately who we sell to. Take their stipend away and you take away their ability to support the rest. It's already at the stage that if they don't log in, they don't get paid...

Bleh! What some people will do to ruin someone else's fun.

I have been reading this and other related threads for quite a while now. There have been arguments on both sides, do a way with basic L$50 stipends for the basic account holder, do a way with the L$500 for preimum account holder, to let it like it is. The bottom line is: What has LL stated they are going to do. I have met several new people in the in-world lately and they have told me they are not getting the L$50 a weeks, has it stopped?

A lot of good points have been made for keeping the stipends in both catagories.......
It seems like the only people who want to have them stopped are the big time money makers or the so-called bankers...

One post in partiular I think spells it out pretty good....if we do away with the stipends, who is it going to hurt in the long run....the small creator's...if people do not have the lindens to buy then they will not be buying....

Yeah I buy a lot of lindens from the exchange (Over $600.00 USD so far) but I also rely on my preimum stipend allowance to help me buy the things I want. (No I Do Not Need Anything To Play In SL) (I am NOT a welfare case) nor is anyone else in this program. We do not need food, shelter, clothing, or nor our families doing without....This is what real welfare is for, but we don't have that in SL.

If Linden Inc is making money, and paying their bills for the labor, servers, etc...and still feels it benefits the program and keeps on providing the basic and preimum stipends then let them.

All this stuff about the ecomony going down the tubes is just because of the high money makers are afraid they are not going to make more....

What we really need in SL is more ways for all residents, basic and preimum account holder to make money. Not everyone has the ability to build things, and being an escort is not the way to make it. People lower their standards just to make some lindens this way.

Let it drop people and get on with having a good time in here, making and keeping good friends, and contributing to the overall good of the program, not trying to take away from it.

my 2 lindens worth.

I understand how economics works. You on the other hand, did not understand the point of my post.

That simply being, that in an effort to stabilize the LindeX, LL will have to "start somewhere."

I understand fully that eliminating stipends for all accounts would have a far greater impact with this effort. However, premium members pay for their stipends through their memberships. They deserve "something" for the money they pay monthly to play in this world. Basic members do not pay to play. They play for free!, and receive a free stipend!

IMHO, LL is very close to stabilizing the LindeX. At this point, it appears that a few tweaks, such as eliminating the basic stipend and the $L250 starting allowance, might very well fulfill this objective. If this does not work, then they may very well have to resort to other measures. That being said, its apparent to me, that cutting the basic $L50 basic stipend and $L250 starting allowance...

..."would be a good place to start" <*hint, hint...key words alert).

Did it ever occur to anyone that the Lindens value NEVER has been stabalized since the Lindex opened and that it's dropping to get to a price most people would be willing to pay for them? The ability to cashout lindens hasn't been around that long so it's quite possible that when it was a "novelty" that people were willing to pay more than the average user would want to pay, thus the dropping lindens is something that will happen with or without the basic membership allowance.

Also why not get rid of the premium allowance? Seems like people with premium probably don't need it as much as the basics and theres far more money coming into the game that way!

What LL does with the money we pay into it does not give us the right to decide what they spend it for. Making the decision to give, or not to give, a stipend to basic members is not our decision.

This constant babble about the L$ has went beyond rediculous into the bizarre.

1. I use a timeclock that my employees punch in and out with. The timeclock does all the calculating and payment distribution for me based upon the hourly rate and title I have provided it.

2. I won't disclose the rates I pay my models. If they want to share that information that is up to them. However, it is best to keep what one is being paid as a confidential item.

3. I design mostly formals and gowns. I have package sets at this time and do custom orders for customers. I am a new designer (only at it for about 4 or 5 weeks at this point). I am not limiting myself to these particular items, it is just where I started. Right now I am customizing my gowns to fit a few interested pixies and creating some fae wear for some faeries. Mens formals are on my list and there are a few various custom "can you duplicate the gown I saw in this movie" type requests.

4. Most people would not take on this method because it does severely cut into profits. I do not rent vendors, but will place them in various locations if the property owner wants to collect commissions based upon the sales from the vendor on their location. Malls typically can not support having models - simply isnt the room for it. I do 95% of my business in at my store location (search for O & N Designs - Selby location) and the other 5% is completed by the field salespeople I have hired. They earn a commissions for any item they sell from the catalog I have issued to them.

5. Sooo basically if you work for me you are paid at the time you have completed your work for the work you did, based upon the rate I have determined is appropriate. I will have to update you on how it is working because right now it is too soon to tell. We have only been open a couple of weeks. I can tell you that the customers do love having someone to talk with, ask questions of and really do enjoy the opportunity to see the clothing modeled in world. The models are all issued free copies of every item I sell so they can model the clothing I sell.

Send me an IM if you want to discuss this further.

Since you take the liberty to quote me while posting this response, please allow me to respond to it directly..

What we are doing here is merely discussing this matter.

I don't believe anyone has suggested that it was our decision, or our "right," to tell LL what to do with the money we pay into it.



This is a public forum. Discuss, or "Babble" as you call it, is what happens in public forums.

Usually the protocol is,...if one finds the "babble" being discussed in a particular thread "not worthy," one does not participate in it.

I used to own a quarter region myself and ahve dropped to basic. A lot have done so. The mainstay of SL at this point is the basic accounts..they lose those might as well kiss SL goodbye. If these money mongers really wanted to make L's they'd find some way to appeal to tho9se of us they probably refer to as the "hairy unwashed" basics.LOL