Step 1: Eliminate the Basic Membership lindens giveaway effective now!

i dont see them doing away with it either i wouldnt want them to do away with them either. The basic accounts are pretty much the backbone of SL. Everyone in SL is a consumer and can be a developer to.!!! so really doing away with free accoutns wouldnt be a good thing!!

Shopping malls don't charge their customer an entrance fee.

They might charge for *PARKING*... But merchants buy parking validation stamps/stickers from the mall owner so they can make parking free for their customers.

Free Basic accounts and just enough spending Lindens to whet their appetite for spending is exactly the right thing to do for the merchantile aspects of SecondLife. If there are better ways of doing it... chances are high they'd be found in RL first where 'big' money is involved... and mimic'd in SL, not the other way around.

Some people in SecondLife pay more, others less and many nothing. It's all part of what makes it more like 'Life' I guess.

Short Version:

Any kind of free market for companies and investors in-game that remains in-game will be the best for the economy, especially business-investment since it forces developers and land-owners to create more noteworthy content, and not only do camp-chairs have little chance in such a scenario, but far more basic and premium account stipends would be going back into the virtual economy, creating more trade, better trade, and more reasons to keep money in-game -- so long as the people who start, run, and/or fund those companies put enough of their lindens back into the virtual economy as well ! (But then they're the ones paying for land, sims, etc)


Long Version:

Here's what happens in a normal economy -- if the government has any economic control, then the currency value is fixed upon some standard -- Lindens are not -- they are in an open market. The value increases over time only if there are more people interested in buying Lindens to get the quickest deal, rather than selling, which only occurs if more Lindens are being bought than sold ...

There is a certain amount of Lindens given out each week based on the number of basic and premium users, and there is also an amount of dwell points and incentives, (some of which are being retired this month) If the Lindens get taken out from SecondLife, then that gradually reduces the amount of lindens spent in-game, even though more people are getting access to the wealth. Now the problem here is that no matter what, money is going to be flowing from Lindens to Dollars ... what we want is a lot more compelling reasons for people to convert dollars back to lindens. The answer? Many-fold:

#0: Estate Trade - This is already covered to the extent I can think of -- Buying, selling, renting, etc, although I'd personally like to see even more of this and new transactions in ways I haven't thought of ...

#1: Currency Stabilization: Right now it's a buyer's market, which in the sense that it draws buyers can be a good thing, but while there's a lot to do in SL -- A LOT -- there's always room to grow and there are far too many people selling Lindens (reducing the value) for the low value to be of any help -- the enticement IN SL to sell Lindens is still far stronger than the enticement in SL to buy them and until we change that, the Linden will continue to drop in value. We need some way to stabilize or root the Linden value in something that's far more stable than an open market. -- obviously a direct tax would be impossible or unreasonable to enforce, so a scaled, indirect, simplified version must be created. The only ideas I've come up with are tax-systems designed to take out Lindens in times of economic decline (and put them in during times of economic growth) in the hope that people will be more prone to buy Lindens, but the danger in this scenario is that when you take $$ from the overall economy, you're not just taking from sellers, but also from investors (and vice versa -- so it's not a very profitable tactic when compared to the energy involved in making the attempt, unless the taxes are diverted into various systems that significantly and positively boost/buffer the economy).

#2: Investor Markets: Instead of Dwell and Developer Incentives, we need markets. The first, and most important (next to the Linden Currency Exchange) would have to be an Investment Market ... something similar along the lines to the NY Stock Exchange -- a place IN-GAME where individuals can more easily invest their lindens -- and make it easier for companies to start up. Furthermore, using outside CDs, savings, moneymarkets (the first one that comes to my mind is the PayPal money market with 4.25% in dividends) to hold all unused portions of investments until they are utilized (and then transfer them back into Linden) would always allow for part of the value to increase over time (Of course, if the Linden makes a comeback, then all such savings practices are completely out of the question during the rise in value -- and another concern is with management of investor funds: a third party system such as SLEX or Linden Labs would be a necessity to manage funds and keep an in-game and on-url account of each virtual transaction by a particular company) -- and as the company grows, it can put $$ back into the account, to increase the worth of per-unit-portions of the company paid for by an investor.

I have to wonder just how many of you who are advocating doing away with the basic stipend think that everyone can afford to pay a monthly fee? Some of us are doing good just to pay our bills AND keep our internet connections. How many of you remember being able to buy a brand new car for 2500 USD? I haven't forgotten. Take a good look at the US Census average household incomes for states like Louisiana and Mississippi. Why should we have to give up or not be able to enjoy SL just because we don't have any extra cash to pay a monthly fee or buy Ls with? Why not take away the 500L per month premium accounts get as well? Are you going to discriminate against those less fortunate than you are financially? That is what taking the 50L stipend away from basic users amounts to.


The 2000 US Census gives the following for the state of Louisiana:

Median household income (dollars) $32,566 (annually)

http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US22&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U_DP3&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF3_U

Last I heard poverty level was considered to be $30,000 - $35,000 and below. Are you going to force me to leave SL just because I don't make $50,000 or more a year? Think about it.

The main ones whining for LL to do away with stipends are those who are trying to make the fast buck selling thier amassed L's. They want stipend gone to force ppl to buy thier's, when actually the effect would be that the vast majority of accounts would idle away. Again to those same ppl wanting the stipend stopped, and people working for thier L's...if you people would pay employees a wage instead of saying tips only plus the house gets a cut of your tips, then maybe people would not ahve to depnd so heavily on th stpend for an income. Camping chairs are not a solution. People come to Sl to relax, explore nad have fun. Not to park their avatar in some stupid chair. Slingo adn Tringo..again no solution. Since LL won't regulate the use of scripts in games of chance in SL, rigged games abound. Most places the host usually wins. So now we get to club contests. Reasonably speaking no newbie has a chance in thier shining new pasty newb skin that we all learned to loathe. and the newb clothes don't stand much chance iether. Add to that the FACT that in most clubs the same people usually win the contests and ina few instances are not even in the proper costume, new ppl have no chance since a "jeans contest" is usually more so a popularity contest.

if...again IF you really want stipend cut then let's tell LL to specify a reasonable minimum wage, and enforce it. If you want games of chance to truly be of chance let's get some enforcement on game scripts also.

and if you're going to make ppl work for a living, let's maybe see some sales jobs on at least a comission basis where the employee doesn't ahve to jack prices to pcoket the extra.

Of course I am leaving out the preying on the newbie by finding freebies and jacking the price to 500-600 L's just because you feel they are sucker enough to pay it and should support you.

Now to sit back and watch the hate mail from employers to whom I suggested ( shudders) that they actually should ahve to PAY employees a wage.LOL

I often wonder about the ones that do want the stipends gone. I mean really. Is it going to really help that much to get ride of them when in the end the economy could be crippled?
It would be nice for me if the value went to 250/$1.00. I personally don't like it at 280/$1.00 right now, but I'll just wait until I feel its at a better price for me. It's very possible that some of this impatience for the fast buck has led to the worse off price. Just my opinion.

I agree. It does make it harder to pay tier which is in dollars. I just don't know if cutting stipends would just make sales harder to come by or not. I've only been selling for 3 solid months, so I really am just a beginner. I also can wait to sell and I'm sure other's need to dollars much more than I do. At the same time, I'm sure there are some selling for quick cash.

You don't need L$ to play, but you - as an SL merchant - need other people to have L$ in order to spend at your store! If everyone's just taking stuff at YadNi's, they're not buying from you, and your "paycheck" would be even smaller!

The money in gambling games has to go in the pot from somewhere, and contest prizes have to come from somewhere too. Not everyone can win games or contests, and if all the losers get bored of losing and quit, then someone else has to lose in their place. And if everyone's buying from YadNi's, they're not buying from you, so your "paycheck" goes down even more.



People do not like having to buy L$ in order to do anything. The stipend helps keep people in the world.



The amount of L$ you're talking about with stipends doesn't come close to "success" in SL. Furthermore, you aren't going to succeed in SL just by having L$ - how you earn it is an issue, and you can't buy talent.

Luci, you said what I was going to say, thanks! Let me also add in here:
I used to have a premium account, back when I could afford it. I couldn't any longer and so I don't.

What do I do with my basic account? I run two art galleries/stores/coffee shops (amoung many many other things). Do I make any substantial income off of these? Not as of yet.

I dont visit clubs more than 3 times a month, I can't stand the lag/bling/hootchie mama attitude of every single club Ive been in. Sure there is free money there but its not worth the time and yes the STRESS of being around 40 avis.

Basic membership brought me into the game and is what allowed me to play around a little and decide I wanted to upgrade.

If every one is so keen on this being a REAL economy, why cut out the welfare system? Its a valid question I ask with no hint of underlying motive, Im quite curious.

I do hope that those who say things like "What is $4 a month? Cut out a movie." will think again. Not everyone who plays SL is even upper lower class. What about those on disability, whose main means of communicating with the outside world is the internet? I know so many people like this! Not every basic member is a money grubber. There are those of us out here in SL who literally get sick when they step outside their door. They can go into SL and have a rl family gathering, visit with friends, shop... all the things they could never do irl.

A basic membership with that weekly stipend may also be a key factor in the reason why people stick around. Basic members shop, bringing money to your stores. Basic members have friends who give them $L ... which also goes to stores, events, donations, basically - into the economy.

I don't claim to know enough about the economy to argue effectively. My main point is to please not lump all the basic memberships together

Sir I do hope you get a chance to read my post. And while I agree that the majority of basics could probably do that, there may be more out there who can't than you realize.

Ive enjoyed your ingame content quite a bit and thank you for it btw!

For the record I am a premium account holder and I am AGAINST any form of taxation or the removal of the $L50 stipend given to basic account holders. I have several business opportunities in the pipeline so unlike Cheyenne, I won't insult peoples intellegence by telling them that my interest in this isn't at least partially motivated by my personal business dealings. RL economics can't be fully applied to SL because the real world deals with multiple markets and multiple currencies. This is simply not the case in SL where there is a single economy and the Linden is the only currency. Taxation is a door that is impossible to close once opened and will always be opposed to it under any circumstances. I believe that there should always be some sort of stipend, but that it should be adjustable for all residents and not just basic account holders. Before I would agree to this however, I would want to see hard statistics that adjusting the stipend would have anything more than a marginal benefit towards stablizing the market. Stimulating the economy is generally accomplished by putting more money in the hands of the spenders, not by taking it away.

Let's go over my posts again why don't we Wayfinder...most of the contests and games I have seen in SL are severly rigged since there is no regulation or enforcement to make sure they are not. Usually the SAME ppl win Tringo...the SAME ppl win Slingo ( which btw is supposed to be a game of pure chance)...and usually the SAME ppl win every contest in clubs they frequent. This makes it impossible for new folks to make L's. As far as working for them...again...how do you feel about having to pay a fair minimum wage and having it enforced? Most jobs in SL are tips only and the house takes a cut of those tips. If you think they should work for thier L's then firstly the work has to be available and secondly but most importantluy it HAS to be PAID work, AND there HAS to be ENFORCMENT of SAME. Want to introduce a court system into SL in which your stiffed employee can sue you for a quarter million L's and garnish your income? I really doubt LL wants the extra work of enforcing all of this. YOu want to stimulate the economy..do it by putting some of those L's your moaning about not being able to sell fast BACK into the SL economy by paying some employees. Or perhapos you'll jsut continue to cry about it until Linden screws up, does kill stipend on basics and loses about 80% of it's citizens and no one will NEED to buy your L's anymore. What your proposal and the one shred with you by otehrs amounts to is cutting off your nose to spite your face, and is probably one of the most UNINTELLIGENT ways to solve the problem. Matter of fact RL mirrors what you propose pretty well. Look at the US economy and trace the casue of it back..outsourcing work.no jobs..no pay...ppl can't buy.

Sorry wayfinder, basically this is the same mentaily as the ones who send all the RL jobs overseas thereby stimulating other economies while killing our's.you want to stimulate the SL economy you gotta put back into it rather than jjust take. Old saying..you gotta give to get.

Let's see. I was enw once..I got the 5 pack of freebie homes...ALL of which were too high prim to furnish on a 512....again games and contests are usually slanted to lean towards a chosen few. We could try putting a ban on all contests for premium acount holders to make them more newbie friendly, but then you wouldn't like that either now would you?



Suuuure....a lousy 50 L's per week, not even enough to rent a home or buy decent clothing hair or skin for your ava is glutting the economy. LMAM..time for you to get real. You also don't help an economy by hoarding L's...by not providing work adn income opportunities ( this takes us back to the point that most "jobs" in SL are totally unpaid and a few of those that are promised pay never get paid since there's no enforcement for wages). And on your list of things to give up you forgot to add toilet paper, soap, and of course some ppl could always cut out buying food for thier kids..just to support YOU. You need to take some economics courses. People who own RL businesses realise that to get something out of thier business they ahve to put into the business, and in a broader perspective..to get the economy to support thier business THEY need to support thier economic community.




Now we'll adress this..even though it is repeating myself. I presonally put effort into several jobs in SL. Hosting....I was instructed by this club, a major one which shall remain nameless that no one could vote for themselves except the hosting boss. Said boss won the contest by one vote. Her own for herself...SLingo, I played that one night at a popular gam,ing resort, and the host won EVERY game, including getting an absolutely impossible score on the last round I played to take the lead from last palce and win. Slots etc...hmm...well I was reading in the forums a while back adn came across a thread about a "slot" machine somenoe designed that promuised ppl a chance to win 20,000 L's. Said machine was scripted to behave as a slot but the money part was a simple donation script and it NEVER paid out. Also nothing was done to the owner group since there are no rules or regulations about such nor enforcement of same. Now then we'll get to those who are reselling freebies at an exhorbiant price. I had some extra cash one day so I got a 50 L attack chopper, and I got one that looked the same from a shop that claims to be rescripting them or changing them. They made thier scripts no copy but they were veiwable and I found the EXACT SAME SCRIPTS in BOTH choppers. No modifications whatsoever even the scripting notes were in place word for word.you wanna fix the economy fine. Jobs with pay that is enforced....a ban on all resales of freebies....and REASONABLE markups on things you resell like land. 400% is quite generous instead of the 1000-2000% most charge. An economy needs a few things to thrive. A home, work, and wages from the work to be able to support those who own the businesses. Wages which are enforceable and employers who get stiff penalties for not paying promised wages.

Ok so I was doing just fine not understanding what you had written because you know how some posts are better left not understood right?...

Well, so then I saw my name and I though...hmm...maybe I should know what he's saying about me.

So with that in mind, would you be so kind as to atleast translate or rephrase at least the above quoted portion please.

I mean, If it's a compliment I would like to atleast thank you for it.

Um...ok let's see...

You mean give like to "pay" for a FREE basic subscription to get a FREE $L250 starting allowance?..

oh wait...that's FREE...not exactly giving to get is it?

Ok Ok...I got it now .....

You meeean... "pay" nothing per month to get a FREE $L50 stipend per week?

Wait, wait!!...that's not exactly giving to get either is it?

dangit!...Ok OK...um

I know...I know...

let me think...

um...

I know you're right on this one I just need to think harder...

let me seeeeee... hmmm

thinking..................

What I am saying is if you want to do away with income then true ppl will ahve to work nothing wrong with that. HOwever there is something deeply rong with the same ppl who want stipend stopping wanting employees to work for tips only then taking some of thier earnings. The SL employers, for the most part are the ones who want something for nothing. True they own land, true they provide the opportunity, but what kind of an opportunity? Even the 500 L per week premium stipend will NOT cover renting a place due to greedy price gouging. I am sure there was a time when it was not this way. However some led the pack in saying we can do this unregulated inflation adn better yet, we can hire ppl without paying them. again you want basic stipend gone provide PAYING jobs with ENFORCMENT of those wages..contracts with enforcement by LL to make sure the employer keeps his end up. and a full limitation on profit margins. Also we need some regulation badly in regards to all the ppl I see selling free stuff on ususpecting newbies, tehreby making it hardert yet for them to support thier SL.

That's not true.The rental market is very competitive, with many renting around or even below tier. There's plenty of places you can rent for well under L$500.

Ravenglass Rentals in Alice is 400l$ a week for a 2048 plot...(full prim)

Not one thing you said above applies to me. I'm on basic and I do work my ass off for what little I get. I spend hours daily in SL making things for sale. Yet without that 50L stipend there would be weeks when I would not be able to upload a snapshot of something I made for sale because of all the competition in SL.

You left that one factor out of your post... competition. You also left out the fact that people have a habit of buying the first thing they see they like rather than shopping around for the best deals. It's called impulse buying and people in SL do it far more than they would in RL. And if the freebies are such good things they why would anyone pay for anything else? There is a reason most of the freebies are free. Poor quality. I know there are some things out there that are freebies that are of good quality but the vast majority of them are not.


You didn't do a very good job of playing devil's advocate because you failed to include important factors like comptetion in your arguements. But then you probably aren't still struggling to make a name for yourself in SL like so many others are. I DO make high quality products and I DO price them so that they are affordable for the majority. I also make the effort to keep my products as low prim as possible. Yet, because of the high competition in SL I still can't afford to buy land and pay a monthly tier nor can I afford to buy Ls every time I need Ls. I don't earn above poverty level in RL and thanks to Hurricanes Katrina and Rita a bad economy is a heck of alot worse.

And I certainly do NOT appreciate the image you tried to paint of me with the crap you spouted. I do play tringo to earn extra Ls as often as I can. I don't do contests because even in RL I don't like clubs. I grew out of that years ago. I've had jobs in SL and had to fight to get my pay. And then my empoyers had the gall to expect me to put it all back into thier businesses. However, it is impossible to spend enough time playing games, etc. to make enough to pay rent and still have time to build new products to sell. The vast majority of the people in SL do have regular jobs and lives outside of SL.

The people advocating taking away basic stipend really pi$$ me off. They want to take away from the have nots and give to the haves. Like we don't already have enough of that kind of crap in RL... they want to drag it into SL. You people are the ones who need to get real and stop trying to take away from the have nots and keep them under your thumbs!!

Selene - I must ask you, have you ever looked into selling your items on slexchange.com?

As for this whole thread, I am undecided...
I see where both points are coming from.
I do agree with both Wayfinder & Selene.

There are SOME basic players that just lay around, and expect free money handed to them every week. The problem with these types of players is there is no "give & take" situation. It's more of a "take & take". I hate people like this...and I could name lots of players like this..It's very common.

Also, there are SOME basic players that work their butts off to get noticed. And strive for that 50 L a week. I respect those players, I was a basic member for a LONG time and I just hiked my way up the stairs of success [cheesy].
Finally, my legs got tired & I gave into the premium account [ha]. Not so I could have 500 L handed to me every week. So I could strive on that 500 L just like I strived on that 50 L, except now I had more options...and being a successful entrepreneur was much easier.

As far as success goes while being in a basic account..It is VERY hard.
As Selene said before it is difficult with all the issues of renting, uploading costs, etc..

Eh...still undecided..... :/

Just as an experience, I've found SLEx is not so good for getting noticed. The problem is that they insist on listing items with highest price first. That means that for the same item, the most expensive one will come first.. and since people can't try things out via SLEx, the only thing that'll make them prepared to pay high for an item they could get cheaper is recognising the seller's name.

Oh, and now if you're established, you can pay a monthly fee to SLEx and have all your items bumped to the top automatically... big ouch for the new folks.

If you can get enough sales quickly enough to make the "popular items" slots on the front page, that's great, but OTOH there's only 3 of them. (Edit: eep. Oops, you have to pay for that now too.)