Step 1: Eliminate the Basic Membership lindens giveaway effective now!

The thing you don't seem to understand is that 15c IS contributing to the ongoing entertainment, and the 30-40c you could get under the old system just by being social and friendly did even more.

Paying people 15c a *week* to act as extras in the movie of your Second Life? Don't let the Actor's Guild hear about that.

Me, except it was more weeks than months, and it's been L$10000-L$20000 a month every month since.

So can imposing the same number of *new* money sinks.

Whether some particular Basic is rude on these forums doesn't change the fact that without the Basics SL would be a really empty place... and without the stipend a lot of people wouldn't play. Even WITH the stipend a lot of people spend most of their time not-playing, because there's this big incentive to not-play.

Don't kill the stipend, bring back the reputation bonus as a money sink.

Except that they wouldn't. These are people who treat not buying Lindens as part of their game. Sitting on camping chairs is the only obvious way to not buy Lindens and still buy a few nice things.

But some of them are really cool people when they can get lured away from the chairs. They're the reason I'm pumping 50-100 US dollars a month into the Linden economy. And I'll bet in a population of 100,000 I'm not the only one.

So... kill rep bonus, people go camping, kill the DI, MAYBE the camping will drop down (but it wasn't a bloodless victory). Kill the stipend as well, people will quit AND you could make camping work again at a lower price. You'd just bring back the problem Linden Labs wiped out the DI to solve, *and* drive off paying customers as well.

If killing the DI is effective in killing camping chairs, AND you take away the stipend, yes.

These are people who treat not buying Lindens as part of their game. Sitting on camping chairs is the only obvious way to not buy Lindens and still buy a few nice things.

But some of them are really cool people when they can get lured away from the chairs. They're the reason I'm pumping 50-100 US dollars a month into the Linden economy. And I'll bet in a population of 100,000 I'm not the only one.

So... kill rep bonus, people go camping, kill the DI, MAYBE the camping will drop down (but it wasn't a bloodless victory). Kill the stipend as well, people will quit AND you could make camping work again at a lower price. You'd just bring back the problem Linden Labs wiped out the DI to solve, *and* drive off paying customers as well.
Why not, people get paid for that in real life.
Like the guy behind the counter at McDonalds who says "have a nice day". If he doesn't, he doesn't keep the job.

I was referring to the reputation bonus, not the stipend. And, yes, when the reputation bonus was killed there was a drop in the number of people just hanging around being nice, and money balls and n=money trees turned into camping chairs... because it increased the demand for Lindens for Basics. Which led to the DI going to camping holes instead of builds attractive to paying users.

What I'm talking about already happened. I don't know what all the effects of killing the stipend completely would be, but they won't all be good.

It's Linden Labs paying people to be social, or the camping barons paying them to be antisocial. There's no third option.

People will just set up "camping chairs for non-profit use". You think they won't? How's the "events" system working?

You want people to quit enticing Basic users in for their dwell? Don't cut their stipends... cut their Dwell! How many camping chairs will there be if Basics were only worth 1/10th of a Dwell? How many chair-sitters do you think are Premiums? One percent? Five? Closer to one, I suspect. 9/10ths of the income from camping chairs would just evaporate, and other attractions could compete FAIRLY for the Premium dwell.

I could not agree more, Wayfinder. Yet ... Isn't it funny, how in most public discussions the proponents of at least two wildly opposing viewpoints claim "common sense" for their opinions?

The OP has demonstrated little idea of how economics works. Money (or any other commodity for that matter) is valuable because it is rare and has use. Yes, free accounts get a weekly stipend. So do paid-for accounts, and that stipend is far larger no matter how you slice it. A far more effective way to stabilise the value of the $L would be to get rid of stipends for ALL characters, regardless of account type. After all, a stipend is still money for nothing in teh grand scheme of things.

But somehow, I don't think that's what the OP was arguing for.

NIMBY

In the interests of full disclosure, I have a free account, and I have never bought or sold a $L on the open market. I might one day upgrade to a full account, but i still wouldn't trade game money.

That stipend is considered part of the premium package however, nad cutting it would massively decrease the number or premium accounts..

Which could, if enough drop down, bankrupt LL and shut SL down. I don't se epeople p[ay 6-10 us dollars a month just for a 512 of land and the forums, when you have to pay more per month to have larger land...

So cutting stipends is a losing proposition all around.

No, it isn't.

As you've said, L$ need to "have a use". The use of L$ is to buy stuff in SL - but unless the stuff you buy is useful, the L$ aren't either. And stuff in SL having a use is largely a social issue - if there was no-one else but you in the world, there'd be no point buying anything in SL. All the avatar customisations in SL would be useless if it became the social norm for people to stand around in their default avatars describing themselves in text to anyone who came near.

The stipend is the payment to people for their social contribution to making SL stuff useful. Ideally, it should be cancelled out by the extra demand for L$ added by that person. The falling L$ is probably not due to stipend; look at IMVU - that also had the value of "credits" crash heavily, and that doesn't have a stipend. The problem is more likely to do with the nature of circulation and wealth distribution.

Oh, there's all kinds of options other than paying people for doing nothing... which is what both of the above options are about.

One thing LL could implement is a weekly feedback poll. A person could spend 5 to 10 minutes filling out whatever information LL wants feedback on, and earn an L50 stippend for doing so. That provides value to LL, which is worth the L50.

People can take part in contests, dances and other competitions, thus adding to the Second Life environment instead of sitting around in Camping Chairs doing nothing.

They can take "roles" or "jobs" in Second Life. How many sims would be willing to pay people to be a "greeter" to welcome new people to their sims? One hour a week could earn at least the equivalent of the current basic stippend, perhaps more.

I agree with you, adequate L$ sinks are necessary. But I rather doubt that positive ratings ever pulled in all that much in L$. I know when the ratings system stopped, I received maybe 1 rating a month from someone who liked one of my builds or that I was able to help in some way. A good sink needs to be Linden Lab controllable, as direct response to shifts in L$ glut or shortage. The most obvious thought that immediately comes to mind would be a "sales tax" made on all purchases, taken out at the time of purchase. If there is a severe L$ glut, the tax might be more than if the economy is good (in which case the tax might be zero).

Basically the idea is to stop paying people thousands of dollars a year for just being a body. It's supposed to work the other way around.

Yes, you're quite right. Often personal opinion is mistaken for common sense. Of course, it has to be granted that also often, one of the sides is exercising common sense and the other side is refusing to believe it. I'm sure you've seen as many debates as I have in which people ignore all facts and logic and continue insisting on the same thing over and over. Usually it's the ones calling the others names that's the big giveaway. LOL

Not that we all haven't been guilty of that at one time or another. I've had to back-track on a thought a time or two. Nature of the beast. We call it "being human"... which means the natural ability to take anything and mess it up.

The difference being (and I am nota Premium user)... Premium users are paying for their stippends. Basic users are not. I would be curious to discover how many Premium users there are compared to Basic users. I would venture a likelihood that total Basic stippends outweigh total Premium stippends (but of course, I have no way to know for a certainty).

But Premium users directly contribute to Second Life. They are the ones that keep Linden Lab in business by paying fees, and they're the ones that own land on which content can be built. For Basic users to equally warrant a stippend, they could have the option of receiving a weekly stippend for a fee of $8 to $10 a year (since the BASIC stippend is worth about 15 to 20 cents a week).

I think the main objection here is the weekly flooding of an already L$-glutted market by giving away L$ to people who are not paying members. The Basic stippend adds up to a HUNK of L$ being added to the market on a weekly basis.

Again, it has to be recognized that L$ are not necessary to play SL. There are so many free events, so many free clothes, cars, weapons, homes, etc etc etc... that one really doesn't even have to spend the initial L250 signup grant. So all this bruhaha over the concept of cutting Basic stippends really, imho, doesn't have a solid foundation in any reason except "We want free money". That's really what it all seems to come down to.

Now, for people leaving Second Life if Basic Stippends should be removed: several months back Second Life removed the stippend for Ratings. There was a big uproar over this, although everyone knew the ratings thing was abused on a regular basis. Perhaps some people left Second Life because ratings were eliminated. That was their choice. I don't see that it hurt Second Life any. The system now has more than twice the number of users and people are doing just fine without all the ratings issues (which were a constant source of forum debates regarding abuse and griefer use of negratings).

Same will happen with Basic stippends. So not to be crass, but anyone who wants to leave Second Life because of a meager L50 per week stippend removal can do so. SL will still survive, I think.

To be honest though, I don't really see LL removing the basic stippend. It's hard to tell what they'll do at any time, but removal of the basic stippend just doesn't seem a likely step for them. It would be a wise step I think, but just not probable. They'll probably do something like socking it to their paying customers instead. LOL

About more than 50% of SL, Is Basic free account for people that can't afford the money to have perm and/or land because land isn't cheap and can place a huge hole in your wallet :/. I have two basic accounts and planing to get a permium when I can. But Eliminating basic is something LL won't do.. they may less then 1% they will turn the basic account cost to buy 9.95USD. SL would lose too many members if they Eliminated Basic, and I have a point when I Said this.

Sure, Dwell Income and ALL Stipends come straight out of thin air.

But, so do the copies of items sold by merchants.

It would be hypocritical to object to DI and stipends...
and not object to the sale of copies... without even a
sales tax going back to Linden Labs.

As far as: Dwell Income for Non-Profit Parcels... it'd be nice, but
I think it would encourage yet more 'gaming of the system' than
ever. Personally I think D.I. should stay as an incentive/reward to
encourage places worth visiting.... even if some places cheat with
money chairs.

And, while it would be nice to find some way to separate 'profit'
parcels from 'non-profit' parcels to determine a traffic/dwell bonus...
that would just create more 'gameable' loopholes I think.
While loopholes can be fun to discover and exploit...
it wouldn't 'fix' the problem.

On the topic of common sense and self-destructive behavior:
Living is inherently self-destructive. We kill what we consume.
We extract, refine and purify materials and toxins that the earth
cannot re-aborb. We age, fall apart, and die.
Of course, try breaking the cycle of destruction...
and see how far that won't get you. =)

That's a really good point. I award you a (freely rezzed) Gold Star for that.

Long live free SL!

Err, no, paying people for being "extras" isn't paying people for doing nothing. Simply being there in-world and interacting with paying customers DOES provide value to Linden Labs. Being there in-world and sitting on camping chairs doesn't, in the general case. I'm sure there's a few people who sit there and script or work on the help line or otherwise interact through that connection to the world... but the majority just leave macros running to avoid the away timer and go off and do something else.

As far as inflation or exchange rate problems goes, it doesn't matter whether someone gets their Lindens from LL from a stipend, from a reputation bonus, from filling out a poll or doing anything else... the effect on the money supply is the same.
Err, where exactly do you get the idea that I'm promoting the use of camping chairs. I'm not, I'm promoting "getting out and being social". I've come up with all kinds of alternate employments for people in this and other forums here, and I'm sure the "business leaders" are smart enough to think of others. But here's the thing... how many jobs like this for players is the "business community" community providing? Enough to offset the loss of the stipend if that were to happen?

How about the "business leaders" showing that there's opportunities other than camping first.
I don't know, I've recommended similar schemes myself, but nobody's actually DOING it. There's all kinds of themed sims out there that could benefit from "extras", but nobody's DOING it.

Create the employment you say should exist, THEN talk about getting rid of the stipend because it's no longer needed, not because you're worried about the exchange rate.
I was only there for a little while before the end of the rating system... it was already L$25 per point, but the ratings were worth something, and they kept coming. Once they weren't worth anything, they stopped, because people didn't care. Make them worth something to the recipient, but still less than they cost, and see what happens.

It would have to be a tax on ALL money transfers, otherwise people would just switch to vendors instead of boxes. But... you can't just base it on the economy, it has to be predictable and it has to build up a reserve in good times (when there's more economic activity to pay for it) and actually cut down in bad (to encourage economic activity)... it's not simple.

They're not, they're paying people up to $26 a year for being a character in the movie of your Second Life... or they're people thousands of dollars a year for being the crowds that oooh and aaah over your cool outfit and fancy car.

But the economic effect within the game (remember what forum this is) is the same either way.
It's about 10:1, so the total amounts are roughly equal.

Yep, and the prediction ws that this would create problems.
Camping chairs are the result of an increased demand for Lindens, and the lack of incentive to be social because you can't get Lindens that way. Both of those things are at least partially caused by the loss of the ratings bonus.

Currencies speculation happen in any economy. I will buy in at $L500=$1 USD and sell them back at $L200=$1 USD. Btw I am on free account

hmmm Everyone has money, money goes down in value, people who exchange the money to make a Realworld profit are upset because thier Lindens are not fetching enough Dollars.

Solution:

in the realworld when the value of money goes down prices go up. So allow me to ask:

When was the last time you raised the prices for your products, and if you are so concerned about the the exchange rate, why not set your prices at a real world Dollar amount then change the Linden price on that object from week to week based on either the current or forcasted exchange rate?

Point... if more people have Lindens, why aren't you doing more to take those Lindens?

Did someone see the Chicken Little movie? It was great.

Before everyone decides to come beating on me for my two cents of nothing, keep in mind:
1. I am a premium account.
2. I pay oodles of money for a lovely high tier, because I love my land.
3. I rent some of my land.
4. My partner and I sell our products.

I honestly do not think the basic account stipend has a negative affect on SL economy. Sure it is free money, however, there are many with basic accounts that still are trying to get over the "overwhelming" feeling in Second Life. I am not a newb, but relatively close. I have only been in game since November.

I highly doubt the $50L per week on a basic account is hurting our economy. We need to have a better job market in Second Life where people can go to work. Many people are not to the point where they want to invest all the money US or Linden to start up. I can tell you I have had a significant US $ investment in order to have the land, get set up and open my store. Many people - just like in real life society - just want a job they can do when they come into Second Life. So instead of taking things away from accounts, how about those of us that have the desire and are willing to take the risk, create some jobs. Once someone has a few thousand linden in their pocket and hit a spending spree they are more apt to buy more Linden to get what they want then the one who has only a few Linden. People who dont walk around with much in the way of funds tend to not utilize much either. Improving the job market encourages the spend, creates a healthy market and a false sense of security. That then makes it ok to purchase additional linden here and there.

There has to be more in our job market then a bunch of DJ's, Hosts, Dancers and Escorts. While there are many types of professions in Second Life - they are predominately someone's business and not an employee/employer relationship.

And before you pick on me and say I don't put my money where my mouth is, just look up any of my models that work in my store. They have regular work available if they want it. I buy the Linden to support that if I need to. So far I have been lucky and my designs have been keeping the starting store afloat. I also have commission only salespeople who make money when they work hard and sell.

A participating member in the economy of Second Life.

Well put Navalia. If people actually want to increase the value of the Linden, part of it is putting it to use within the economy, investment and what not.

The economy in SL is comprised mostly of something akin to Engineering Contractors (freelancers who script, build or design), somewhat skilled labor ( escorts, hosts, security, DJ's, management) Club owners and Land Owners.

We have to remember that this is still a developing economy. Developing economies take years to stabilize. Part of the stabilization will require the diversifying of the job and business market.

There are two umbrella industries in SL. Enternainment and fashion. everything is either built for them in the long run, or lends to thier ease of practice.. in order to diversify them we must add greater complexity to them, we must change how we go about business. The natural progression of economy will supply that.

I can see a franchise system running along side the lease system of business deployment.
I can see corporate entities, run along the botique businesses that pretty much have the run of the landscape.

A couple of things that i can see popping up as well. Private sandboxes, that would allow rentals or lease of land so that scripters and builders can create without bumping elbows with thier collegues.

Franchise systems, where rather than keep track of multiple rents, a business owner will lease out locations to individual managers or land owners. The land owner would keep the profits while paying the business owner a franchise fee. thus garunteeing income for the business owner, and allowing the land owner to make more money off the business on his land.

Corporate entities which develope multiple and diverse items by hiring diverse talents.

People with money who want to make more money yet don't have the time to put into building corporations, or stores or products, might want to invest, thus we have the birth of the venture capitolist

Some of these require a contractual system which means disputes will arise. Arbitrators, lawyers, and a political system will be needed to solve these disputes thus giving birth to the lawyer.

With demand for different skill sets coupled with the need for a garuntee that said skilled person is well versed in said skill set and a yearning to learn skills on a professional level, schools will be needed, thus creating the need for teachers and an acredidation system.

all of these can be set up by the players/residents themselves. all it takes is the people with drive and know how. I'm sure we can find these people out of the thousands who log in everyday.

( Woot! Thanks for the gold star Argent! )


(to no one in particular)

Does "paying someone just for being a body" == welfare?

Think of it this way... in RL most folks are born into families that
cloth, feed, shelter and teach them how to be a member of society.
(with varying degrees of sucess )

New players enter SL, ignorant in the customs and ways of SL.
Some are dirt poor, their RL-self not yet comfortable with investing
anything more than time into SL. Some act more like spoiled
trust fund brats... and arrive with a big wad of purchased L$ to
squander.

These 'motherless' urchins roam our streets and malls...
some become vandals and thugs (griefers). Some camp out at
the soup kitchens. Some sell their bodies.

While this 'tender time' isn't what every newbie goes through it
certainly seems to include a significant percentage. And if that
is all SL is for them their stay in our world will be brief.

If you look at the people that stick around... you'll find some traits
in common. There seems to be a drive... to learn, to create and share,
to form partnerships, to create or participate in communities of
interest, and or to test themselves in competition, from tringo to
commerce and/or popularity.

It's boils down to the interaction with real people... collaborative or
competative and the investment of one's time, effort and reputation.

I think, ultimately, the question has to be... What should
Linden Labs do to help new players grow from transient newbs
into people of character, actively carving out their own niche
in our amazingly diverse world?

Or, in this thread, more specifically:

Does the L$50 basic stipend help more than it hurts?
I say yes. A new player who feels they have 'nothing to lose' is far more
likely to engage in griefing behavior. Start them with L$0 and they'll
treat their avatar as disposable. Start them with too large a lump
sum... and they'll do the same. L$50 is low enough that the bother
of creating more avatars is hardly worth it.

So, L$50 a week isn't much. 2/3rds of a full rating. 5 snapshots/uploads.
Half of a new group fee. 1 common tee-shirt purchase. A fair ante
to one game of tringo. I think of it as on par with 'interest' on a savings
account. Sure it's not much but it is an incentive. Besides, where do
banks/government get the money to cover interest payments anyway?
(no don't answer that , it's tax season and I don't want to think about it! =) )

Will non-newbie basic account holders rebel if the L$50 stipend is
discontinued? Will merchants leave if it's kept? Yes. A few, will.
'A few' will always find reasons to stomp off in a huff when it's time
for them to move on. It's difficult to sustain the wonderment and
thrill of discovering a new world. Like relationships, when the honeymoon
is over, either you embrace the new perspective and choose to continue
with it, or you find reasons to move on.

While I haven't the numbers for SL's population... in other socially active
no-initial-fee online realms where I do have access to such data:
only 10% of the new players will stick around for more than 3 months.
only 1% of the new players will stick around for more than 3 years.
The ratios for SL's population are pobably not as simple as 100:10:1.
When it comes to picking priorities, I can't fault LL for the exchange rate
if it helps them improve the number of new players that stick around.

Okay... so this post may be a little off the topic of 'Land and Economy',
but I see investing in new players as an important part of the economy as well.
(and I need to be less wordy... blah blah blah blah... sheesh!)