Step 1: Eliminate the Basic Membership lindens giveaway effective now!

I think you are misunderstanding the point.

Regardless of if you buy merchandise, save, or cash out your L$50, that money was created from thin air. You did nothing to get those L$50. You did not pay for them, nor were they earned. The continual creation of these $L50 is diluting the worth of the $L.

If there are 100,000 users getting their free L$50 each week, that is $17,000 USD worth of currency being added to the economy weekly. That is about one day's worth of trading, per week, on Lindex.

Not necessarily.

Suppose there is a user who signs up, lives on the L$50 stipend for a few months, decides he likes SL, then buys L$10000.

By buying that L$10000 he has added enough demand to the market to counter the extra supply from his stipend for several years.

If the same user arrived and didn't get any stipend, he might quit; then he would never buy the L$10000 and no extra demand would be added.

Suppose that user did not buy that L$10000?

There are a lot of "suppositions," "ifs," and "mights" in your post Yumi.

Schwanson is basing the calculations in his post on facts.

You are basing the calculations in your post on speculation.

See the difference?

I see where you are going with this, and to a certain degree, you are correct. In LL's case, they are hoping that user decides to go premium.

LL is offering a 'loss leader' in the basic account. They gain nothing financially by offering these accounts (directly). As paying users we are participating in this 'loss leader' by offering the value of our $L. The hope is, these basics will go premium, rent, buy $L, or somehow otherwise benefit the world.

I do not mean do devalue a person's 'worth' , but in this context we are discussing a basic user's financial worth to LL and to the community.

I agree that a new user needs to start off with a certain sum of $L. Perhaps even give them a small stipend for a few weeks. But $L50 per week, for life, seems a bit extreme. I would hope that this would encourage a higher conversion rate to premiums for LL.

Nope, and I've made that point several times in these forums. Stippends are not essential to game play. One can survive a long time on SL without using L$ to any great extent.



Because then the concept of an economy wouldn't exist, at all. It would be a change in general attitude. Now, the idea is, "Sorry, you can't have this item, it's sold at my market at <insert landmark here>". Without an economy, it would be "Hey, glad you like it, let me give you a copy". Totally differen concept.

I'm not badmouthing the economy aspect mind you. I love building for profit. I'm a merchant; I find it interesting and enjoyable. Just presenting an alternative concept in response to a prior message from another user.

Agreed. Parts of SL are glorious. I came to SL from Worlds because there simply wasn't enough to do on Worlds. If you weren't a builder (very difficult) or poet (which was my trade) or trivia expert or avatar maker... you pretty much were a chatter. That was the #1 activity there. However, if one was a builder... the land was free. (at least, as memory serves. Can't remember exactly).




You may be right. Can't argue with that statement. But there may be just as much incentive for quality/perfection in competition with peers. You know how one-upmanship works; very addictive stuff.

Wow Corey, tell us what you really think.

Contrary to the above, a lot of folks here are trying to improve Second Life. Just because you don't agree with their opinions doesn't mean they're wrong or should go get a job flipping burgers.

If SL is just "a game with cartoons running around"-- what does it matter what happens with L$ and stippends? What does this thread itself even matter? These suggestions are from people who want to help stabilize the value of the L$ on Second Life. We have lots of different ideas about how that's done and there are differences of opinion as to which idea would work best-- but that's the whole purpose of this forum: to get a diversity of ideas out here for discussion.

I may strongly disagree with my opponent-- but defend his right to his opinion. At times... he just might even prove to be right.

That's a very good point Cheyenne, and glad you made it.

How many times have I read posts from some malcontent Basic badmouthing the "capitalists" who "impose their economy on the masses" and their "profiteering mindset" etc etc blah blah blah.

Those people totally fail to understand what you mentioned above... that these "capitalists" are the ones paying for their free game. Kinda like biting the hand that feeds ya.

If merchants and landowners did not have a way to earn their money back, they couldn't afford the $3,400 per year to set up a sim. They couldn't afford to rent land for their markets. That's why the economy is especially important to Basics. Because the "capitalists" can probably afford the $9.95 a month to have a Premium account. Try to hit the "ungreatful Basic" with that and he'll have a cow backwards.

Cory, dude, you call people greedy and suggest they dispose of 95% of their income (which can amount to hundreds of dollars for some people and pays their food bills) while you're whining about a measely 15 cents a week?

Since the majority of users on SL are Basics... that 15 cents a week can add up to major L$ amounts... and help stabilize the entire economy. It's no skin off your nose. You're not working for those L$. You're not paying for those L$. You're not earning them. You're a guest here. We're the ones working so you can play your "cartoon game". Wake up to reality dude.

There's a thin line between having an opinion and being a troll. I appreciate these are your opinions, but man, a little bit to the far side of left field. Show some respect for others. Keep this up and you'll have to avoid sunlight.

Yeah, agreed. Giving newbies a few L$ to get started is a decent idea. But as you said, continuing that practice is not wise-- especially since it is totally not needed. There are so many ways to get L$ on SL if a person just puts forth a little effort.

As Schwanson said: "If there are 100,000 users getting their free L$50 each week, that is $17,000 USD". So obviously that 15 cents per player per week adds up.

How does this affect the economy? Because that L50 is almost always spent by Basics in full, every week. They don't get many L$, so they spend what they have. That's $17,000 worth of L$ that flood the sales market every week, L$ that wouldn't be there othewise. If they weren't there, that would make the demand for L$ greater. Instead of Basics being continually provided free L$, they would either have to work for them (or play contests or camp or whatever)... or they'd buy them, which many would do. This would improve the L$ sales market, which would improve the economy.

That's the bottom line. People can point at all kinds of causes for the devaluation of the L$ and the resultant impact on the economy, but (without being able to look extensively into the data) it's likely that free stippends are one of the main causes. Since I'm a Basic myself, I don't think I'm biased in the opinion that free stippends are counter-productive to overall economy.

Again, just to stress, by removing such LL will not be eliminating the ability of players to get L$. They'll just have to make an effort to do so rather than it being handed to them like some welfare check being given to an individual perfectly capable of working for the money.

No, actually. Going premium is great for LL, but very bad for inflation. Although a premium member seems to be paying US$ for extra L$, they don't insodoing enable someone who is selling L$ on Lindex to sell them; the L$ are still created from nowhere. To avoid inflation, the player must actually buy L$ or induce others to do so.



(nod) And the basis of the stipend should be - how much good is that person doing the world by just being in it? If the presence of 20 more folks in-world convinces someone to buy land and set up a club, their L$ buying for the club might cancel out the stipends those 20 people got.



I would say that a better point to remove would be the opening start fund. The effect of that is that each user who arrives, tries out SL, buys stuff with their starting fund, doesn't like it and quits has a fairly significant effect on inflation. If 100 users do that, that's L$25000 that's been dropped into the economy and all the new demand it could have brought in has left.

However...

That extra L$17000 worth of L$ makes SL more of a utopian environment for business. As a result, people are more likely to set up businesses. When they do, they demand large numbers of L$ for land. They also sell stuff, meaning that people demand more L$ to buy it with.

Without the basic stipends, the L$ value would go up quickly, but as a result, spending would become more frugal. Camping and contests would become less frequently available as people would be losing out on more potential US$ by providing them. People would buy less stuff in SL, making the business environment less attractive, and losing the demand triggered by business start-up investments, rentals, shop land, etc.

However...

If that US$17000 worth of L$ didn't exist, those folks might purchase L$ to fund their habit, which is just as important to merchants as the initial sale. You may be right that there might not be as many sales as with the L50 stippend... but as pointed out, L50 is 15 cents roughly. People seem to be willing to buy from L1000 to L10000 without even a blink. A person who spends roughly $4 to buy L1000 would likely be willing to spend more than they would have had they just spent their basic stippend of L50.

It's hard to predict what it would do to sales. Might decrease... might increase. But interesting points you make, nevertheless.

There will be a definite decrease in sales of goods. That is alright. The biggest problem when too many $L are given away is that sellers who turn around and sell their $L have more $L each week than what buyers need. When this happens, sellers have to constantly underbid each other to get their $L sold leading to a downward trend that sometimes has upswing, but normally falls. Sales will definitely decrease as buyers have less money, but at least I won't have to compete with $L that were given away by Linden Labs for free. There will be a more stable economy, and it will be easier to look at one's prices and sales and guage what actions should be taken to the future. I know that there is a definate limit on how much I will invest in this world, because I know the economy will overall fail as time goes on.

First of all stop calling me 'dude' thank you. Secondly in all honesty I could care less about the 50 lindens a week. What the problem is are you greedy money changers are always fast as lightning to jump on the bangwagon of taking from everyone else with your hair brained ideas and ill thought calculations that this is what's going to allow you to make even more real money selling your lindens. In your opinions it's always good to take from everyone else. I've not seen once a suggestion that would take from you though. And once they take again and it don't cause your lindens to sell for more then what? Funny how quick you forget that it was going to cure the linden value to take the income of normal players by taking the rating bonus. I think it did work in causing a lot of permium accounts to downgrade to basic. Mine being one example of that. That didn't work so now this dimwit idea. So what's next? What are you going to suggest they take when they've taken it all? Is your greed really putting up such a wall that you can't see the obvious? Rational adults will not pay retarded amounts of hard earned money for a damn game's money! Why don't you people cry to linden labs and ask for lower prices? Wouldn't that have the same effect of raising your linden value? You'd be able to afford your $900 a month GAME bill. But you see that's not your concern because you're making well over your land cost. You want that tax free income that's above your land costs to be more and more. And you know what if this game is your way of feeding your kids you are in fact one pathetic human being. And if you look at this GAME as 'working' you need theropy. A game is for enjoyment. If you see it as work you have a sickening addiction. Oh yea speaking of tax free income on this game. I'd laugh my ass off if/when the IRS does get keen to this. Whoa then you'd have to come up with another good 'take from everyone else' idea to cover the income taxes.

Read that again in the proper direction. I said, 'The ones who want to cut the stipend are 'Haves.'' I did not say, 'The ones who are 'Haves' want to cut the stipend.'

Imagine that! An engineer who understands a bit about basic grammar!

Game on

Again you are incorrect in your assumption. My entire system would cost approximately $150 to build from scratch with new components. You assume that is what I did, but it is not. My dear Frankenstein is pieced together from the parts my gamer friends would throw away because they upgraded. Also, I am unemployed and unemployable. So how do I get online? Easy enough. I live with someone who runs a home network across a very high-end cable connection because he's a gamer. Again, doesn't cost me a penny, which is good because I don't have any pennies to spare.

When is Havoc 2 gonna be ready for use?

I've got a basic account, and I haven't put less than US$20 into LindeX any month since I've been here, PLUS I rent 6000 square meters from Tony and Alliez for another US$33 a month that goes to tier for that sim.

I don't need the stipend.

I think it'd be a false economy to kill it.

I think Linden Labs could do more to reduce the money supply, but they should do it with in-game economic sinks that encourage circulation. More fees and taxes, in Lindens, like the upload fees.

Luci, I, as I am certain many others, are very sympathetic to your situation. Although LL is a "for profit" organization which requires for someone to be paying for them to make a profit, I am not advocating the elimination of the basic "free" membership subscription that many are currently enjoying. And I haven't seen anyone proposing this either. I am glad LL has a "free" basic membership account option. It's a good idea. The more residents in the world to make friends with, the better. But it just needs a little tweaking. Especially since the elimination of the $9.99 one-time fee.

What is being proposed, and discussed, is the elimination of the free $L50 weekly allowance that these free subscribers are receiving. And this elimination is only being proposed in an attempt to further stabilize a floundering economy. If it were not for a floundering economy, I am certain no one would care either way.

I guess what I find confusing is how "some" residents, who are already being subsidized with a "free" subscription to "play" in this world, feel so vehemently entitled to an allowance, or what amounts to free money, for a game they are already playing for "free."

Would you, or anyone, please be so kind as to directily explain this without blaming premium subscribers, or cluttering your explanation by comparing these subscribers who are playing for "free" with subscribers who are paying a fee to play?

Thank you in advance for your response.

Or, they might not play at all, or they might just spend less, or play less.

And even if they're not spending money, they're spending time online as "extras" in SL. That's what they're getting paid for, 20c a week to hang around and envy your chichi hair or custom skin. And THAT is driving sales of chichi hair and custom skins.

You're welcome to my stipend. In fact I'll promise to upload enough textures or take enough photos EVERY WEEK to use up my stipend if it'll shut up the people who are complaining that the "pro stipend" faction are looking for a free lunch.

That fair?

Read carefully the part of my post that stresses... "some" residents "feel so vehemently entitled" to an allowance...



In other words, If you are indifferent to the elimination of the $L50 stipend then my comment obviously do not apply to you.

Reading comprehension does wonders, doesn't it?

Cory, sorry you object to being called "dude". Considering your heavily offensive attitude and insulting nature toward other people, I didn't imagine you were that sensitive. Request noted.

I do have a suggestion: use all that "paragraph" instruction they taught you in school. It helps to separate the points you're making into logically constructed thoughts.

An observation: it is possible to voice your opinions without attacking and insulting people in the process. You might try it in just one post to see if it garners greater respect for the point you're making.

It's not that your posts are totally invalid. You may even be making some good points. But people ignore them due to the run-on, blatantly insulting nature in which you present them. That doesn neither you nor your argument any good.

Another thought: just because you personally disagree with folks, doesn't make you right and them wrong. All of us here are possibly guilty of showing disrespect at one time or another, but it's best to not make a practice of it.

I fully understand and sympathise with this. There are some folks in this situation. I would have to believe this is an extreme minority and doesn't apply to players in general.

As far as your computer costing $150 to build from scratch with new components, sorry, that's simply not the case. You can't buy even a barebones for $150, let alone a full system with the power necessary to run Second Life.

But think about it... even in your case, you are not without avenues for acquiring L$. Can you learn to build and market your wares? That doesn't cost a dime. Can you learn to script? (There's a vast need for that on SL and people are willing to pay for it). Can you attend dances, contests, games, sit on a camping chair?

Even those who have no money (and I understand there are likely to be some) are not without ability to earn their way here. They don't need LL to hand them free L$ every week. Of course, if they don't want do exert any effort whatsoever to gain L$, they'll be up the proverbial creek. But in that case, hey, their problem, not mine. "He that does not work, neither let him eat". If someone is going to be so lazy that all they want to do is stand around and goof off all the time, does he really deserve to be given L$?

A person could make an avatar with a cane, a cup and a sign asking for spare change. When the music feed at a dance messed up, one guy bought a violin and set out a tip jar. He earned L2500 in just two hours. There's all kinds of ways to get L$ rather than having LL drop thousands of dollars worth each week to non-paying users and causing the value to deflate in the process.

Seriously, do you even for a moment believe this? That if LL decides to cut the L50 stippend, thousands and thousands of people will stop playing? I don't think so Tim. I would hope to believe that most people are wise enough to realize they have a totally free membership in the first place, and although they may complain and moan a bit... they'll still play. Evidence: look how many people continue to play in the face of negative and adverse decisions by LL as it is. I think it would take something really really nasty to get vast amounts of people to quit SL or even play less.



That does indeed happen, but are they to be paid for simply complimenting another user on his/her hair? Hey, maybe I should get paid for eating at McDonalds and brininging my friends with me to increase their sales!

If they didn't get paid that L50 a week... would those compliments then cease and the sales market crash? There are all kinds of things that influence sales both good and bad. That doesn't mean LL needs to pay people for them.