Step 1: Eliminate the Basic Membership lindens giveaway effective now!

Defend your actions. Saying something in one post, then claiming that you didn't say it and editing it out of the original post is just plain dishonest. So what is the point of arguing with some one who won't stand by her statements? When proved wrong you revise your statements accordingly. Amazing. What would be the point of discussing anything with some one like you?

Didn't you say "Bye Bye?" Or are you going to edit that out too?

could be 15 cents or 15US$... no difference.
You are suggesting that newbie shouldn't earn a single L$.
How are they supposed to start a buisness, or enjoy SecondLife without money ?
Camping on chair or dancepad, grabbing freebee, make stuff with freebee, find a freebee vendor and a free palce to put it, and sell stuff made of freebee ?

Or maybe they should buy (your) L$ on lindeX for their 1st week of playing ?
Seriously ...

Removing the 50L$ will have a HUGE impact on the economy.
A lot of player are living with thoses 50L$/week, and guess what ? They spend it to upload some texture (L$ destruction), renting a cheap mall (running the economy), buy clothes and stuff in mall and private shop, play tringo. Maybe rent a cheap house in a private (or mainland) sim if they can earn enough money from their startup.

They'll try to enjoy a "normal" secondlife and, maybe, upgrade to premium to buy land, pay tier fee, create things, open a bigger buisness, buy and sell on LindeX, etc ...

Take thoses 50L$ on the premium account stipend. 500 or 450 ... i don't care !
But not on basic, they NEED it !

I edited it that small portion about alluding that you were on basic because I realized that it was an assumption on my part, so I quickly corrected it. This, and any other corrections done on that post, if any, were done before you posted any of your ensuing posts. If you look closely you'll notice my edit was at 6:04 and your next post was at 6:14. So seeings as how I edited that post ten minutes before your next post, and atleast 10 minutes before any of your ensuing posts, it couldn't of been a revision after being proven wrong by any of your posts, could it?

Apparently, you were still in the process of your line-by-line disection of that original post, long after I had finished editing it.

I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology. I do however, suggest you take a real good look in the mirror next time, before accusing someone of being dishonest.

Whoa...what a novel concept.

Yet another fine example of greed trying to destroy this >>>>>>GAME<<<<<<<<< for the casual player. Personally I won't pay for another account simply because they allow people to make 1000's of real dollars a month from this game. That concept in itself breeds the severe greed that runs like wildfire in SL. The greedy money changers are like 'don't give anyone any money to enjoy the game that way they have to buy mine so I can feed my crack habit by sitting in front of a pc 24/7 getting fat instead of getting off my lazy rear and working a real job'.

Wow, you finally actually responded to something I wrote, instead of telling me you weren't going to "validate" my position by responding to it! Your lame excuse that you were "guessing" if I had a basic account is just that, a lame excuse. You posted it. I quoted it. You said you didn't post it. That's about it, right? I should have checked the time you revised your post. I was wrong to state that you revised it after my next post. My bad. Next time you post something incorrect and you're called on it, own up and things probably won't get this heated. Editing it out and pretending it didn't happen is silly after it's been quoted.

Still, your proposal to eliminate other people's money to prop up the value of yours is inherently unfair. And even you admit it wouldn't account for much in the way of real monetary change. I can only assume you won't "validate" this with a response though.

As much as I'm enjoying reading the flaming back and forth... </sarcasm>

The OP does have a point. The $L 50 a week to free accounts has been going on for awhile and has likely come to the end of it's usefulness in terms of Linden Lab's purposes. It also appears to have had a negative effect on the economy. Printing more money, at least in the RL which SL tries to model, is always a bad idea.

The premium stipend is part of what you pay a fee for every month.. right there with tier. I don't see LL discontinuing that.

Maybe one answer is to end the free accounts and have a new type. Perhaps you pay $5, $10, $15 a month automatically on your credit card. That $USD goes to the Lindex to buy you however many $L it would buy at the rate that day. You get it automatically in game. Have bill dates randomized through the month so you don't get Tuesday spikes like we have now. No new money is created. Existing money stays in circulation. The new basic account still doesn't contribute directly to LL's being able to pay it's expenses, but it would contribute indirectly through rentals, sales, etc. allowing other people to hold land and pay tier.

Don't know if that idea would work, but coming up with at least tenative solutions (based in some understanding of basic economics) beats screaming about the problem.

I agree.

The basic account holder contributes nothing to LL's financial well being, unless they are renting from a premium account holder.

The L$50 per week stipend they receive, harms the $L economy. Assuming L$50 is currently worth $0.15 USD, and there are 100,000 users collecting that weekly, LL is adding $15,000 USD worth of $L weekly to users that do not contribiute financially to LL or it's users.

I pay my preimum fee, I own land and I also rent land for myself because of the low prim allowance. And I will be here as long as SL is up and running because I enjoy the game, but watch my words, do away with the Stipend for basic account holders and that will be the end of Second Life. It will come down to a hand full of preimum account holders who will not have anyone to rent too, anyone who will buy the things they make and anyone to attend the events they host.

I guess we're going to find out, as it seems they've done away with them as of yesterday-ish. No official word, but basic allowance has been removed from the membership plans page. Seems like that'd be hard to accidentally do, but we'll find out next tuesday at the latest, I imagine.

I would love to know the exact number of the total of 139,000 plus members in sl that are:

1. Preimum Account Holders (less alts)
2. Number of Alts
3. Number of Basic Account Holders

Then a look at the normal or average number of those on line at any given time (at peaks the most) and see the same stats.

Then look at those same figures two months from now if in fact the basic accounts do lose their L50 stipends a week.

I really and truly hope it doesn't cause the lost of SL but ..................

Do you really think the $L50 ($0.15 USD) LL gives to non paying members will cause the demise of SL? The $L50 per week is not enough to cover rent and it only dillutes the value of the $L.

These people are getting handed free money, a free account, and unlimited access to a high bandwidth platform. The people that pay for premium memberships are subsidizing the basic accounts $L50 with the devaluation of their purchased / earned $L.

The goal of the free accounts is to get people to either sign up for premium or purchase L$ from Lindex, if they are doing neither, why do we want them consuming our resources and devaluing our $L ?

Naaaw. Everyone will pile it up together with the other 115 threads of same-ish topics.



Thank God... cause... they really aren't.




Do you remember what it's like to be a newbie?



Thank goodness no one listens to the "get rid of freebies" threads *either*.



This already exists.. only that the *experience* period is infinite.



That really sounds reassuring.

.

Obvious? Necessary? Appears, to whom? What other measures? Didn't we agree LL is not into stabilizing any market?



*pulls out long range sniper rifle...*

All it takes is one reading; just one reading of the SL description website, the TOS and numerous linden blogs and public adresses
to the community to understand that LL takes no part whatsoever in anything that happens in SL. The only thing they do step in are abuse reports - and that's because it's a *big issue*. But none of these "OH great LL! Please, come in and do this or that" pleads will work. LL did not create the economy. We did. We are the ones buying and selling. They don't arbitrate it in any way - know why? They don't want to.
They won't inflate the lindens.
They won't deflate them.
They won't create banks.
They won't create a real legal system.

To them, all this is resident doing. They have no part in it.

There are shades of gray in everything, and finding a balance between eliminating the stipend and keeping it is probably the best course.

Ramp it down in a thoughtful fashion and we may find the only basic account users we lose are the ones that have no intention of ever purchasing L$ or participating in the economy in a productive way.

We don't have the data to tell what if any effect eliminating the stipends would have. It's all just guesses. I've proposed that the people who want to eliminate other people's money to prop up the value of their own try an experiment. Have a few million of their $L destroyed by LL and see what happens.

The same people who say that eliminating the stipend for basic accounts will help the value of the $L then go on to tell us that they don't know how many free accounts there are or even how much money actually goes into the economy this way in the first place. Nor do we know if eliminating this unknown amount would have the desired effect on the rate of exchange.

If reducing the amount of money in the system is the way to raise the value of the $L, there is a simple way to do that without raising fees or eliminating stipends. Let land owners pay tier in $L. LL would then cash out that amount. Nobody pays more, nobody loses anything.

I suppose neither of you use any player content or go to event's or visit any player owned lands. I suppose you both stay on linden owned land and use linden created content at linden events? Or do you use alot of player created content on player owned land at player run events. Without player content you wouldn't have your free game. Then you whine because people care about the return they get on giving you your free game? Wow and you want me to care about your $50L a wk you did nothing for on top of the free game you did nothing for?

Call me dense. But I fail to see how a basic account holder contributes nothing to the economy, or to the SL experience.
From what I have seen from friends that have basic accounts, they still buy products. Though they may have to save for a few weeks to get something expensive, many will buy the cheaper items available.
They may script or build, and then sell what they make. Yes, you can do that on a basic account.
They may spend their time doing the various *ingos, or best in's and win money, which they then spend buying products.
They may volunteer time to help as a Mentor, Greetor, Instructor, Live Helper, officially or unofficially.

All these things contribute to the economy, and to the SL experience. To say that only Premium account holders have value is incredibly arrogant, and erroneous thinking to my mind.

Ouch.

Of course I use player content, and of course I recognize the value of that content. The players, and the ability to create so much from scratch in this world, is exactly what makes SL the amazing place it is. My point was merely that there are many activities a player can engage in without spending any money. "Public goods", if you will. A previous poster claimed that you have to have money in order to do anything here, and I was curious as to what constitutes "anything" in her opinion. In no way did I intend to mark myself as a free account holder (which I'm not) or to "whine" about the possible removal of the free stipend. I would be against taking all money away from the true newbies, as I feel they should be allowed to experience the working of the economy, but when it comes to long-term free account holders... *shrug* Whatever works.

Oh, and before I forget:



Except that LL presumably gets their money from land tiers. The money that presumably then goes to keeping our "game" running.

Wow... so much hostility in this thread!

I'm all spun up... I gotta gotta gotta get my hands dirty over this one:

Q: Who is really at fault for the dropping value of L$'s compared to US$?
A: The same people panicking and screaming about the dropping exchange rate.

If L$ were 'devalued' in SL, prices would increase. I'm not seeing that happening.

So, the real blame for the slipping exchange rate lies only with the people selling their L$.
There's too many of you selling too many L$ for the market to support.

Naturally, this is fantastic for people buying L$... it's a buyer's market! Bully for them!
At least they're doing their part trying to bring the exchange rate back up.

Personally, I want the basic stipend BACK. Without it I think that new players won't get enough of a taste of what SL offers. I think that without some starting 'play' money we are at risk of many newbies never buying L$ or upgrading their accounts at all. Sure some folks are abusing the system... I hope LL finds some way to crack down on them for it!

New ideas are as vital as new players are for SL's long survival. If LL avoided any changes that might have any short or long term impact on the SL economy... it would bring a very lethal stagnation to our world. What's bad for SL is bad for its economy too. You could try to say "well just don't implement ideas that are detrimental" but benefits have costs and one person's profit is often another person's loss. It's all relative to where you stand.

Sure, it would be amazingly cool if we could recruit Alan Greenspan to come and manage the Linden Reserve as fun retirement project... but it is way too early for LL to make stabilizing the SL economy one of their highest priorities.

So, How do we 'protect the L$ to US$' value?

Discourage folks from selling L$'s, up the currency sales taxes!

Establish some sort of 'L$ interest rate' encouraging folks to save up and keep their L$ in game instead of cashing out. Of course, they may end up spending less too... c'est la vie.

Face it... any plan that results in an increased value of L$ to US$ will probably result in fewer players buying L$'s... fewer players shopping/renting and fewer profits for you. Take your devalued L$ and come up with ways to increase your volumes instead.

And, only because a post in this thread just wouldn't be complete without some sort of ad hominem attack: I find you and your argument against basic stipends distasteful, mean, and as absurdly discriminatory as males making laws against abortion... or straights wanting to prevent gay marriage. Chicken Little, you meddlesome little rabblerouser, this is not a crisis.

--
(p.s. to 'break even' in SL at this point... I would need half a million L$. My viewpoints are skewed as a result. However, I do remember a very long and conscious deliberation over whether or not to upgrade from basic to premium. I almost didn't, but am still glad that I did... despite having invested so much $ in both LL and SL in the last 2 years. I'm here for the whole experience, not for how much profit I can stuff in my pockets.)

Has anyone NOT recieved thier basic stipend??

imho, these claims are so wrong in so many ways. LOL

No offense intended. Just want to present alternate viewpoint and rebuttal.

We should not expect merchandise prices to increase across SL. Because of the nature of the beast, unless one uses networked vendors, changing prices can be very difficult and time consuming. Not to mention the fact that if one merchant increases his prices and five others don't... he's not going to sell. So L$ devaluation really has nothing to do with the prices of merchandise on SL. Generally, when a price is set on an item, it tends to stay set. It's just too difficult and time consuming to update prices and replace vending systems all over the grid. Most merchants just don't bother.

You are partially right in that the slipping exchange rates lies with people selling L$. Unfortunately, not the majority of the people... because that selling rate can be influenced by just a few who are willing to sell their L$ at the lowest prices possible in order to sell NOW, no matter what. That forces others unwillingly to sell at the same prices, because LindeX is unwisely set up so that if they don't follow suit... they'll NEVER sell their L$. Just like bumper to bumper traffic, if you back off the car in front of you, some clown will slide into the spot ahead of you. So you're forced to do what you don't want to do in order to get where you're going. No, the sellers aren't responsible for the downward trend of the L$.

Yes, there are a glut of L$ right now. That is not the seller's fault either. "There's too many of you selling too many L$"??? What are they supposed to do with them, wallpaper their walls?

Who is responsible then? The answer is pretty simple really: Linden Lab. Why? Two reasons:

* They've failed to control the flow of L$, handing them out like they were candy, for every single reason that hit their minds. They hand them out as prizes for promotional movies (rather than paying RL$ for them). They've handed them out in Linden-sponsored contests rather than leaving those contests to residents. They've given them out by the truckload every week to people who aren't even paying members. They've handed them out to clubs for supposed "content" that really doesn't exist (unless of course, one calls nude dancing and cybering "content". Bottom line: LL has not controlled the flow of the L$, and now there is a glut.

* LindeX (and its Linden-cooperated predecessor GOM) are totally without regulation or moderation. Any kind of "free-market" system without any regulation whatsoever is like a truck with no brakes or steering wheel. It's liable to go anywhere. No need to go into great detail here on this; there have been entire threads devoted to this debate. But take the US$ without the FED... and you have LindeX.

Bottom line, Linden Lab is the big dog in the L$ exchange market... and they've not taken the steps required to stabilize the market. They're just letting what happens happen, and the predictable result is that the conversion value of the L$ is going to drop and drop and drop.

But sellers responsible for the L$ devaluating? Sorry, no. They don't hand out the L$ and they don't control it's flow. They're just strapped into the truck and unless they ALL band together (which isn't going to happen), they have virtually no control over where it goes.

Midnight, not bragging just stating fact:

* I founded Elf Clan (500+ members), the Poetry Guild and the Builders Guild.
* Elf Clan resides on four island sims.
* I designed and built a great deal on those sims.
* I own ElvenWorks, a fantasy-avatar and accessories merchantile.
* I've hosted dozens of events and classes helping others to enjoy SL.
* I've performed several live music shows here.

BASIC member. So you're absolutely right. I've been a BASIC member for well over a year. Basic members can contribute a great deal to the game. However, although I am a Basic member, I do think it's kind of ludicrous for LL to give tens of thousands of Basic users L$ each week when the market is already L$ glutted. Doesn't make sense to me. I know that basic users might scream if that stippend is removed, but realistically, what have they got to scream about? Not getting paid for playing a game? ;D


side note: I'd have probably gone Premium long ago, but that [expletive deleted] "land tier" system is a big de-motivator (doncha just LOVE how land tier automatically increases, but doesn't automatically decrease? We so enjoy paying for land we don't have). Since Philip himself doesn't like it all that much, I'm surprised he allows it to continue. There's also the personal peeve that I don't really feel like paying LL $120 a year while getting griefed regularly by people who don't spend a dime. Somehow that idea just bugs me. So until LL does something about both issues... that's how it is. Want my $120 bucks? Respect our needs.

Okay, so... Let me make a guess, here. The people that want to cut the Basic Account stipend out are 'Haves' right? You're the people that have RL cash flow, and think everyone else does, too, and if they don't then they don't deserve to have a level playing experience as the 'Have Nots.' Yes, you need to have a good economy to stabalize the game in any meaningful manner. Let's look at ways to do this other than crippling the people on Basic accounts. (Since I'm RL disabled and unemployable, you can bite me if you take offense to that way of putting it.)

Land Prices: Put a cap on them, for crying out loud! Basic accounts can't own them, anyways. What makes a 512m piece of land worth L$5000, anyways? Jeez, people! What are you smoking, anyways?

Land Usage Tiers: Maybe raise that just a smidgen? Again, it isn't something that affects Basics because they can't own land in the first place. What do they need all that money for, anyways? Oh, right. The clothing, gestures, and other odds and ends that everyone else has since the free stuff for the most part SUCKS. I thank all the people who give free content, though, because it does give people choices that they wouldn't otherwise have.

Linden Exchange: This isn't the real world, here. Lock the prices down on those Lindens! People want to cash them out? They get less per Linden than the person buying them. There is NOTHING saying the economy has to be 100% realistic! Maybe someone buying them gets L$250/US$1, while someone selling gets US$1/L$350. Would take a bit more coding and organization than is currently in place to allow for market flux, but again, this isn't ther real world.

Griping about economy: SHUT THE HECK UP! Jeez! Whine Whine Whine!! You complain about people making money on the game. Why?!? What possible purpose does it serve for a GAME?!?!?!?! Get out there and MEET PEOPLE! PLAY GAMES! HAVE FUN!! Don't stress over the same crud you can stress over by reading the newspaper every morning!

I hope that my comments have enlightened you. If not, oh well. I've said my piece, and I'm done with the topic.

Thank you, and goodnight!

Actually, not necessarily. While there are undoubtedly some out there who have this attitude... I'm a Basic account and I'd have to honestly admit that eliminating stippends for non-paying members makes perfect financial and business sense.

Personally, I find it a little difficult to believe the folks who say, "I can't afford to buy L$". For two reasons:

1) L$ are not essential to enjoying this game. There are so many freebies on this system that the initial L$250 allowance could keep a person in gear for a year.

2) There are all sorts of ways to get L$ on SL. Contests, camping chairs (sigh), raffle balls. Shoot, I made L$5000 the first 10 days I was here just by entering contests.

3) To even play SL, one has to have a pretty decent computer and a DSL or Cable access line-- which mean one has to have some disposable cash laying around. Claiming inability to spend $4 for 1000L is a little hard for me to believe. Cut out a trip to the movies, buying a magazine or some other non-essential item during the month. I have to think the reality is not being too poor to purchase L$-- in the case of many folks it's more of a "gimme" complex. They want it all handed to them on a silver platter. Free membership. Free L$. Free land if they thought they could get away with it.

Market is currently glutted with L$. LL has to eliminate that problem somehow. One way to do so is to stop giving away free money to those not paying for their membership-- including me.

lol. Do you even read what you post?

This response is just plain silly. So by your account if I pick answer "C" to a mulitple choice question, and then I correct myself by erasing answer "C" and instead picking answer "D," and answer "D" turns out to be correct, I am still wrong because I initially picked answer "C."

I am not pretending it didn't happen, even though for all intents and purposes it didn't since I corrected myself PRIOR to your response. Just because you took forever to respond to it after having quoted me with the original post, does not make it silly. It makes you silly( and yes wrong, but I won't hold that against you since you've already admitted as much) for attempting to rationalize away your mistake, instead of owning up to it and leaving it at that.



No I won't. Many others already have for me though.