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Economy Announcement: Removal of Traffic Incentives

Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
04-17-2006 12:24
From: Fade Languish
It wasn't about the camping chairs foremost, that's a fringe benefit, it was about how much money was entering the economy. To presume a CEO is going to contact you personally is the height of arrogance. And once again, you have a negative outlook.
And his dream a failure? I don't think that's a fair statement at all.


I asked him to explain why they made such a stupid thoughtless decision without providing a better solution, either publicly on the forums or directly to me if he preferred.

How can the truth be negative? Much of the creativity is going to disappear from SL because people cannot afford to play any longer without the various help and rewards that we get for attracting people, for example. Thankfully my in-world existance is not dependent on taking money from other people to keep going (which is why I only have 4096 sq m instead of the land I want) but not everyone is as lucky.

If LL would remove the dependency on the economy, and emphasise the fun, social and creative aspects of SL, it would be a better experience for all.

Lewis
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Karsten Rutledge
Linux User
Join date: 8 Feb 2005
Posts: 841
04-17-2006 12:33
From: Lewis Nerd
I asked him to explain why they made such a stupid thoughtless decision without providing a better solution, either publicly on the forums or directly to me if he preferred.

How can the truth be negative? Much of the creativity is going to disappear from SL because people cannot afford to play any longer without the various help and rewards that we get for attracting people, for example. Thankfully my in-world existance is not dependent on taking money from other people to keep going (which is why I only have 4096 sq m instead of the land I want) but not everyone is as lucky.

If LL would remove the dependency on the economy, and emphasise the fun, social and creative aspects of SL, it would be a better experience for all.

Lewis


Eliminate the economy. Yeah, I don't think so. If you want to see creativity stifled, do just that. When there's no longer any incentive for creating quality content, I'm betting it'll be gone, or at least severely cut back.

Also, could you clarify your statement about your in-world existence not being dependent on taking money from other people? Is your 4096m of land being supported by SL income or out of pocket?
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Blakar Ogre
Registered User
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 209
04-17-2006 12:33
I personally believe it's a great idea. Even the places that host great events have dancepads. I would be more than happy to see the dancing zombies disappear. I never used any of the get-free-money-machinery and I never hesitate when it comes to tipping a great host, DJ, ... SL will look a lot more attractive ones the zombies are gone. And let's not forget the performance gains. You'll get a few FPS for free at a great event once the zombies no longer need to be rendered.

Whomever has a good thing going now will easily manage to do so in the future too. Those who disappear were attracting too many "get money for free"-people anyway. And in the end, I wonder if it was really worth it. How much of dwell was really used for good purposes and not just to pay out the camping chairs, dance pads, ...?

Who out there really gets a significant amount of dwell without promoting camping? If you did your events must've been fabulous and I'm sure participating people will be interested in spending a few L$ to keep it going. I sure know I'm willing to pay for those few things that are really fun to go to.
Boliver Oddfellow
CEO Infinite Vision Media
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 484
04-17-2006 12:34
Nala- you are my hero for the day. As for lewis as you have shown us a Nerd is a Nerd is a Nerd
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Schwanson Schlegel
SL's Tokin' Villain
Join date: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 2,721
04-17-2006 12:40
I doubt that this will have a large impact on any individual business. I get a considerable amount of dwell on a daily basis, compared to most, ~$400L - 600L. I use it to feed my money trees.



This will not have any effect at all on my business decisions. The dwell payments have never even come close to paying for tier nor have they been a factor in my business model.

I think this may have a positive effect on the $L value, though I question if it will be enough. It is curious to me that they decided to cut this as opposed to reducing/eliminating basic stipend payments. My guess is they are trying this first before taking the more drastic approach.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
04-17-2006 12:40
For the last 2 years, dwell has probably been the most lucrative slice of my in-world income.

But I'm glad it's finally going away.

Dwell was an incentive to create things worth visiting... but it was also a chain around my ankle insisting that I stay home and promote, play host and what-not to keep my dwell up.

Even without DI, people will still want the popularity points to promote their malls, if the revenue from the mall can cover the chairs... many will end up staying.

But hopefully most camping chairs will go.

The rewards for content, creativity, effort and offerings should come directly from the people enjoying/benefiting from them... not from LL. This is a positive step for the community of SecondLife despite the hardships that those who depend on dwell for business or survival will encounter during the transition.

Phillip, thanks for announcing the impending change early... and for the change itself
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Ralph Doctorow
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 560
Good call.
04-17-2006 12:43
A very good move IMHO.
Norinn Richard
M2 Reporter
Join date: 2 Nov 2005
Posts: 57
04-17-2006 12:44
In my books this is bad. Two things come to mind real quick.

Not only does this pull anouther rug out from under sim owners, it kills any illusions about LL creating a viable alternative to DIs. I know from the work I've done for Sim of The Week that a *lot* of land owners are operating at a loss right now, but holding out to see what the "new DI" is going to be. This makes it pretty clear that DIs are gone for good, while also cutting off the one weak leg that was helping to hold things off.

Second thought, how is someone that just wants to create something beutiful get some sort of support? I know lots of gardens that currently charge for nothing. What are they going to do now, charge five bucks each time a someone sniffs a flower?
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
04-17-2006 12:44
From: Lewis Nerd
I asked him to explain why they made such a stupid thoughtless decision without providing a better solution, either publicly on the forums or directly to me if he preferred.


Why would he prefer that?

From: Lewis Nerd
How can the truth be negative?


Well i don't see it as the truth, and regardless, it's not the truth that's negative, it's you.


From: Lewis Nerd
Much of the creativity is going to disappear from SL because people cannot afford to play any longer without the various help and rewards that we get for attracting people, for example.


Rot.

From: Lewis Nerd
If LL would remove the dependency on the economy, and emphasise the fun, social and creative aspects of SL, it would be a better experience for all.


I doubt it. Very much. Certainly wouldn't be for me, and aren't I part of all?

And finally, why did you only respond to me and ignore Nala's outstanding post? I feel some excellent points were made there.
Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
04-17-2006 12:50
Hallelujah. Praise the Lord.
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
04-17-2006 12:52
about freakin' time.
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Cheyenne Marquez
Registered User
Join date: 19 Sep 2005
Posts: 940
04-17-2006 12:57
All hail the Governor! ;)

From: Philip Linden
Following this change, we will continue to watch the economy and make further changes as needed.


:eek:
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
04-17-2006 12:58
It is still not enough for some people. I sense a cheese shortage is coming!


Lewis Nerd
Nerd by name and nature!
Join date: 9 Oct 2005
Posts: 3,431
04-17-2006 12:57
From: Karsten Rutledge
Also, could you clarify your statement about your in-world existence not being dependent on taking money from other people? Is your 4096m of land being supported by SL income or out of pocket?


Real life money, out of pocket. I think the most I got from traffic was about L$40 one day. My store might bring in L$300 a week.

In a nutshell, I play because I want to, not because I want to make a real life income from it.

Lewis
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Kazanture Aleixandre
Here I am.
Join date: 5 Oct 2005
Posts: 524
04-17-2006 13:01
Perfect.
/130/37/99264/1.html
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
04-17-2006 13:03
From: Lewis Nerd
I think the most I got from traffic was about L$40 one day.


Then what on earth are you whingeing about?
Musicteacher Rampal
Registered User
Join date: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 824
04-17-2006 13:04
well, I'm not an active content creator so I doubt I am allowed to have much of an opinion about this. I didn't earn much traffic with my land as it is just an in world home for me so it does't hurt me directly. However one of the best social times I have is the Free slots hour every evening though I've rarely won more than $70 L a night it was a lot of fun socially, something I'm sure most casino's will ot be able to afford after dwell is gone.

I have no love for camping chairs so I'm not sad to see them go.

I do fear that this is the first step towards eliminating stipends for all players (especially since Robin was kind enough to point out that stipends are 72% of incoming $L)

I just fear that the steps necessary to "stabilize the economy" for the relatively small amount of players who rely on it to pay their fees and to "get paid" for their hard work of creating content (I do not grudge you fair compensation for your time and talent) is going to slowly push out the casual player who just wants to enjoy SL casually.

I've been through this argument several times. The casual gamer wants to enjoy without paying beyond their fees, the creator (who probably started out just seeing what they could do) wants payment for their work. Both feel justified in their opinion and want their way of Second Life to continue as it has. Someone will end up loosing in the long run...who should it be? Should the content in SL suffer to preserve the enjoyment aspect for the majority? Should the majority casual players have to pay more to enjoy the same content they were enjoying for less?

I'm not sure LL can win this one either way. Either the $L will continue to drop and content creators will give up and get out or the casual player will get fed up with having to pay more $US for the same content and leave. Either way SL will end up loosing.

While I am happy to just socialize with my friends and have plenty of inventory items to keep me happy for a long time and really don't NEED to make purchases I would be able to continue playing without my weekly $500, but I wouldn't be making anywhere near as many in world purchases. I figure many would do the same so the content creators are going to loose anyway. Some will happily shell out the $US to continue their SL way of life.

I have no idea what the solution is I just know there is no way to make everyone happy because there are 2 camps who view SL as something completely different. The gamers vs. the business platform users.

I do have a question though....private sim owners, do they currently get dwell payments? If they do and they rent land out on their sim do they get the dwell or does their tenant get the dwell?
Patrick Playfair
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 328
04-17-2006 13:16
From: Jopsy Pendragon
For the last 2 years, dwell has probably been the most lucrative slice of my in-world income.

But I'm glad it's finally going away.

Dwell was an incentive to create things worth visiting... but it was also a chain around my ankle insisting that I stay home and promote, play host and what-not to keep my dwell up.

Even without DI, people will still want the popularity points to promote their malls, if the revenue from the mall can cover the chairs... many will end up staying.

But hopefully most camping chairs will go.

The rewards for content, creativity, effort and offerings should come directly from the people enjoying/benefiting from them... not from LL. This is a positive step for the community of SecondLife despite the hardships that those who depend on dwell for business or survival will encounter during the transition.

Phillip, thanks for announcing the impending change early... and for the change itself



I couldn't agree more. I once had an island and a club the ranked number two in dwell. The DI I recieved payed my tier and allowed me to pay a staff of 40+. I reached that level by doing my best to provide quality entertainment and a fun environment for my customers. Camping chairs have ruined all of that. Dwell payments by themselves (without DI) are really a drop in the bucket anyway IMO. I am glad to see the dwell payments go away, especially if it means the end of camping chairs,

THANK YOU Phillip!
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Patrick Playfair
Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
04-17-2006 13:15
First, kudos to Philip for having the courage to post in a public forum, thus inviting response.

There are imho, several aspects to this issue, only one of which is "Has traffic incentive outlived its time?" There are several points and questions that might be made in this regard:

* Yes, abuse of this system has occurred and it has not worked particularly well. However, in some instances, it did benefit those who worked hard to actually add content to SL (and I don't mean just Elf Clan.. there are many, including some of the better clubs, who have done so).

* It has been said that Camping Chairs was one of the things that finally pushed this decision to the fore. If that is the case, a question that would seem obvious is, "Why not just outlaw Camping Chairs?" If a dog is running rabid, you don't kill everyone's pet.

* The economy. Yes, the economy is showing severe signs of problems. It has dropped at least 17% since the inception of LindeX and no end is in sight. This causes problems for merchants and land renters and ultimately results in Second Life inflation. This is good for no one. Robin said in her notice that damaged SL economy is one of the major reasons this step is being taken. BUT... if that is the case, why take it out very people who make the economy work in the first place? I know the thought may be unpopular in some circles, but LL gives away thousands of dollars a month in FREE L$ to people who are not paying a dime to use the system. So when the economy starts glutting and the L$ starts devaluating, the decision is made to go for the people who ARE paying? For those who DO own land and sims and work hard here to help make Second Life what it is? Where is the sensibility in that?

* As one user said, "Ok, if this system didn't work, wipe it out. What do you have in mind to replace it for those who DO add content to SL, as incentive to keep them doing so?" I would have to foresee that there will be some lands that will be shut down due to this. Now of course, that won't affect LL because they'll just sell/tier the land to someone else. But removing a system that people have counted on to help them afford their land might, without providing an alternative benefit where warranted, may not have been the best decision. Hard to tell at this point.

Anywya, just a few thoughts from the fantasy section. :D There's no denying that this decision will hurt our lands. How much damage it does--to us and to others-- has yet to be seen. I'm not totally against removing traffic/dwell etc... but I'm not for cutting off a good arm because the other arm has cancer.
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
04-17-2006 13:16
First, kudos to Philip for having the courage to post in a public forum, thus inviting response.

There are several aspects to this issue, only one of which is "Has traffic incentive outlived its time?" There are several points and questions that might be made in this regard:

* Yes, abuse of this system has occurred and it has not worked particularly well. However, in some instances, it did benefit those who worked hard to actually add content to SL (and I don't mean just Elf Clan.. there are many, including some of the better clubs, who have done so).

* It has been said that Camping Chairs was one of the things that finally pushed this decision to the fore. If that is the case, a question that would seem obvious is, "Why not just outlaw Camping Chairs?" If a dog is running rabid, you don't kill everyone's pet.

* The economy. Yes, the economy is showing severe signs of problems. It has dropped at least 17% since the inception of LindeX and no end is in sight. This causes problems for merchants and land renters and ultimately results in Second Life inflation. This is good for no one. Robin said in her notice that damaged SL economy is one of the major reasons this step is being taken. BUT... if that is the case, why take it out very people who make the economy work in the first place? I know the thought may be unpopular in some circles, but LL gives away thousands of dollars a month in FREE L$ to people who are not paying a dime to use the system. So when the economy starts glutting and the L$ starts devaluating, the decision is made to go for the people who ARE paying? For those who DO own land and sims and work hard here to help make Second Life what it is? Where is the sensibility in that?

* As one user said, "Ok, if this system didn't work, wipe it out. What do you have in mind to replace it for those who DO add content to SL, as incentive to keep them doing so?" I would have to foresee that there will be some lands that will be shut down due to this. Now of course, that won't affect LL because they'll just sell/tier the land to someone else. But removing a system that people have counted on to help them afford their land, without providing an alternative benefit where warranted, may not have been the best decision. Hard to tell at this point.

Anyway, just a few thoughts from the fantasy section. :D There's no denying that this decision will hurt our lands. How much damage it does--to us and to others-- has yet to be seen. I'm not totally against removing traffic/dwell etc... but I'm not for cutting off a good arm because the other arm has cancer.
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The Spork
Nobody
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 100
I agree with Norrinn
04-17-2006 13:17
From: Norinn Richard
In my books this is bad. Two things come to mind real quick.

Not only does this pull anouther rug out from under sim owners, it kills any illusions about LL creating a viable alternative to DIs. I know from the work I've done for Sim of The Week that a *lot* of land owners are operating at a loss right now, but holding out to see what the "new DI" is going to be. This makes it pretty clear that DIs are gone for good, while also cutting off the one weak leg that was helping to hold things off.

Second thought, how is someone that just wants to create something beutiful get some sort of support? I know lots of gardens that currently charge for nothing. What are they going to do now, charge five bucks each time a someone sniffs a flower?


There are a lot of people that don't have money to dump into SL. I know many people that camp to shop. I camp while I photoshop things to make the money for uploading.

Once the camping is gone most of the casinos will follow. The malls will begin to fall as well. I guess in the future of SL will become a cyber sex environment. Nice write up on that subject HERE too. I've been trying to get friends to try SL for a while now. Several sent that link today. Soon looks like SL players will be labeled as perverts. Especially with the allowing people to have sex with and abuse child avatars. Hmmm, I need to quit telling RL people I PLAY THIS GAME.

I'm betting on island closures too. In fact I suspect land will be nice and cheap soon. This should cause a major flood of cheap land and land repos. Nice thing is we all get open spaces to play in. Anyone wanna bet on how much longer Anshe Chung lasts? :eek:
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Patrick Playfair
Registered User
Join date: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 328
04-17-2006 13:20
From: Lewis Nerd
Real life money, out of pocket. I think the most I got from traffic was about L$40 one day. My store might bring in L$300 a week.

In a nutshell, I play because I want to, not because I want to make a real life income from it.

Lewis


Then why do you care about Phillips decision?
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Patrick Playfair
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
04-17-2006 13:29
From: The Spork
Once the camping is gone most of the casinos will follow. The malls will begin to fall as well. I guess in the future of SL will become a cyber sex environment. Nice write up on that subject HERE too. I've been trying to get friends to try SL for a while now. Several sent that link today. Soon looks like SL players will be labeled as perverts. Especially with the allowing people to have sex with and abuse child avatars. Hmmm, I need to quit telling RL people I PLAY THIS GAME.

I'm betting on island closures too. In fact I suspect land will be nice and cheap soon. This should cause a major flood of cheap land and land repos. Nice thing is we all get open spaces to play in. Anyone wanna bet on how much longer Anshe Chung lasts? :eek:


You're seriously attributing all of that to the removal of traffic payments? That's kind of spectacular.
The Spork
Nobody
Join date: 8 Feb 2006
Posts: 100
04-17-2006 13:49
From: Fade Languish
You're seriously attributing all of that to the removal of traffic payments? That's kind of spectacular.


Domino effect. And that's my just prediction. Let's hope I'm wrong. I always hope I'm wrong. Problem is most of the time I'M NOT. :(
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Teddy Wishbringer
Snuggly Bear Cub
Join date: 28 Nov 2004
Posts: 208
Dwell going bye-bye..
04-17-2006 13:53
Personally, it was nice, but I won't miss it.

I run a 18432M playground and amusement park for the enjoyment of cub and kid avies (on the adult grid), paid for out of my pocket. I went into without expectation of making money, knowing full well that I would be bearing all the expenses that went along with it.

Sure I have a small mall, but again, I use that money to improve the park (new rides, etc.) and in free giveaways (like a zero profit daily raffle to help out basic members and newbies). I have never relied upon dwell to finance the park's operations. The park was created simply for the enjoyment of everyone ('cept greifers) and a place to hang out and make new friends.

I certainly won't miss the lag brought about by the camping chairs, clubs and casinos that only exist to earn dwell (note, I'm not saying all clubs and casinos are in it for the dwell, just singling out those that are). I have no beefs with places trying to earm money in SL, in fact that is one of the great things about it.. but traffic shouldn't be a subsidy either.

*goes back to playing on the swings* Weeee!
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