Economy Announcement: Removal of Traffic Incentives
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-18-2006 17:27
From: Shaun Altman Well then, in the new SL, you should stick to Linden provided entertainment features, such as "chat".  That is not true! I am a landowner too! There are things that I can do on my land and the land next door. There is no need to pay some one to have fun!
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-18-2006 17:37
From: Persephone Phoenix Using that logic, why pay for clothing, skins, vehicles, or anything in SL? I admit that you need to buy a few things. One really good skin, one really nice set of hair and maybe some nice clothing, etc. However my most treasures things were given to me from my friends. Once you have the the above items there is no need to spend any more. The clothing never wears out or needs cleaning, homes and vehiciles are the same. The only way stores make money is from selling things to newbies. What if the newbies have no money? Also who wants to pay hard cash for something that never even gets on your hard drive? These things are good only for second life. Also if you look around everthing can be got for either free or for a cheap price 
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Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
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04-18-2006 17:52
I disagree.
There are many nice to have or interesting items that are not available for free - even though they are reasonably priced.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-18-2006 18:01
From: Siggy Romulus I disagree. There are many nice to have or interesting items that are not available for free - even though they are reasonably priced. You are correct but you only need so many changes of clothing, etc. Then again I grew up on a island that was ravished by war and the standard of living was not up to lofty western standards. The Americans tried to do a good job but their budget was always small. Also being the 3rd daughter does not help! I am happy with just a few nice things, dont need to keep up with the Jones. My outlook on life is to do what makes me and my family happy and not to impress others with my wealth! Being happy does not come from aquiring things either here in SL or in RL. Being happy comes from within ourselves 
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Wagahai Oddfellow
Registered User
Join date: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 23
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Camping chairs - unrelated to dwell removal
04-18-2006 18:10
Since camping chairs have come up a few times during this thread, figured I'd address that for a moment because I think they're a scapegoat for this dwell removal.
To support most camping, people are investing a LOT of $US. According to a conversation with Robin, when someone buys $L with RL $, it's part of a seller/buyer system - not just a matter of injecting new $L into the SL economy.
The Lindens are not doing this removal due to camping, it wouldn't make sense. The purchased $L that places use to pay people is not hurting the economy. Meanwhile, the Lindens are making hundreds of $US per week by club owners willing to run camping chairs. The DI and dwell don't make a dent to what these places are paying and LL is not loosing $ on the deal.
The discussion about if paying people to sit for the advertising placement and if it's the "right thing to do" is a completely seperate discussion, but not related to the economics of the removal of dwell & DI.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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04-18-2006 18:16
I come from a culture that tips over. Er... over tips.
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Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
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04-18-2006 18:24
From: Jopsy Pendragon I come from a culture that tips over. Er... over tips. Western culture does not pay food server people the same amount that non food service people get. It is their tradition for the person being served to make up that difference in the form of a tip. In Japan tiping someone can be seen as an insult since they get paid as well as the no food worker. If you leave a tip in Okinawa the food server will chase after you to returned your lost money! In Japan keeping a lost iteam is considered stealing! So you understand it is a matter of upbringing and ones native culture.
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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
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04-18-2006 18:54
From: Isablan Neva There are granting organizations here in SL, just not that many that want to fund sexxay thong contests. For example, The SL Botanical Gardens recently sponsored Lauk's Flower Show to the tune of $5,000L. Enabran and the FFRC have both mentioned willingness to sponsor - but again, those who are willing to sponsor are going to fund events that appeal to their sensabilities, which is the same way philanthropy works in RL. Guggenheim didn't fund racetracks, he was into art, which is why we have museums all over the world with his name on them and not the NASCAR Guggenheim Cup.
SL provides you with a rich 3-D tool set and if you are at all creative, you can start a business to cover expenses for your "folly" projects - which for you might be a spa/club; for me it is a 1/4 sim of gardens and waterfalls. I've never sought funding for sexxay thong contests. I did, however, struggle for months to find funders for my past events (I think I pissed off the 'wrong set' of people as a newb maybe? I've not found any explanation for it), but I got, after months of work, begging letters, begging at events, a total of 3000 Linden. That's why I became an officer of the FFRC because there should be a means by which one can apply that is neutral and not based on "well Joe's hair is spikey and I hate spikey hair so no effen way am I sponsoring his trade fair." Sponsorship should be based upon the quality of the event or happening, not who rubs whom the wrong way. Unfortunately, as an officer of the FFRC, I am not eligible for funding for my own events. I do have a small SL business that pulls in about $L 8000/ week. I have rentals that pull in that much again. The problem is that Teir (with no 3/4 sim bracket) costs me $195 Hosts and entertainers cost me $10,000L per week ($40,000 per month). With the business, the rentals, the DI and Dwell, I was breaking even. DI went so I met with a project management team whom I paid through the nose for months. I have, as a result a gorgeous sim and, were all the rentals filling up (they are for the commercial but not for the residential) I would have broken even given current sales trajectories or even making a small amount after a year (which would be necessary for the huge expenditure of funds for the revisioning) however, this was depending upon 1) four residential renters at 6000L a month and 2) maintaining the 4000L per month for dwell that paid for some of the spa's staffing. I'll try to downsize if I can find people I trust to sell to. If I can't, well heck, why do it? why spend 30 hours every week making a public attraction? seems foolhardy if it doesn't at least pay for itself. I could be pocketing rl money every month instead of entertaining people and paying money to do it.
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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
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04-18-2006 19:07
From: Ranma Tardis Western culture does not pay food server people the same amount that non food service people get. It is their tradition for the person being served to make up that difference in the form of a tip. In Japan tiping someone can be seen as an insult since they get paid as well as the no food worker. If you leave a tip in Okinawa the food server will chase after you to returned your lost money! In Japan keeping a lost iteam is considered stealing!
So you understand it is a matter of upbringing and ones native culture. Whew! Well good. We're not talking about tipping food server people since food is something noone buys in sl except to use as a prop. Tipping musicians or performers still doesn't go to pay for the teir. It pays talent twice. the talent are paid already by the event venue. the problem is that people seem to be saying "I'll tip a performer if I had fun," but again, this does nothing to help pay teir. Will musicians begin renting spaces to play, perhaps, the way they would have to if limited to venues that make no money off of liquor sales? Unless people make money off of some bi-product (fishing equipment maybe, or gambling or whatnot) of the event, they have only a few choices to recoup costs. 1. sponsorship (the FFRC can, at its current rate of development, sustain 3 applications per week or 12 per month, though that is just a guess) 2. ticket sales (which will exclude what looks like half of the population who are unwilling to pay for tickets) 3. mixed usage (which will only work if SLers overcome the need for safe suburbia and rent in mixed usage sims) 4. Linden made content. The Lindens are prepared to pay thousands in USD to hire one artist to make content in SL (so long as the artist is young and a student. No over-30s need apply). Will this be the way of the future? Will your mom and pop event producers be GOMed? I suppose we shall see.
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Events are everyone's business.
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Isablan Neva
Mystic
Join date: 27 Nov 2004
Posts: 2,907
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04-18-2006 19:43
From: Persephone Phoenix Teir (with no 3/4 sim bracket) costs me $195 Hosts and entertainers cost me $10,000L per week ($40,000 per month).
You've answered your own dilema. You own more land than your income can support without subsidies. It does suck that there aren't more layers of tier as you get up into the upper reaches of land ownership, it certainly is one reason keeping me at 1/4 sim. In order to meet expenses, you need to tier down to what you can afford. That is a basic, smart business decision.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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04-18-2006 20:04
From: Ranma Tardis Western culture does not pay food server people the same amount that non food service people get. It is their tradition for the person being served to make up that difference in the form of a tip. In Japan tiping someone can be seen as an insult since they get paid as well as the no food worker. If you leave a tip in Okinawa the food server will chase after you to returned your lost money! In Japan keeping a lost iteam is considered stealing!
So you understand it is a matter of upbringing and ones native culture. Well Okinawa is the western world LOL its so americanized... min wage for food servers ranges from 800 yen to 1200yen per hour. But i bet withthe influx of western people in Okinawa those food server people do get and expect tips. EVEN in airports workers get tips motels exect tips......I know this because I deal with overseas clients when they arrive in japan.......Just to correctly add some remarks to this issue.
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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04-18-2006 20:09
From: Ranma Tardis So you understand it is a matter of upbringing and ones native culture. No. Tipping in countries where tipping is expected is an example of good manners. Acting everywhere as though your culture is more important than your host country is an example of parochialism.
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Karsten Rutledge
Linux User
Join date: 8 Feb 2005
Posts: 841
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04-18-2006 20:10
From: Ranma Tardis Western culture does not pay food server people the same amount that non food service people get. It is their tradition for the person being served to make up that difference in the form of a tip. In Japan tiping someone can be seen as an insult since they get paid as well as the no food worker. If you leave a tip in Okinawa the food server will chase after you to returned your lost money! In Japan keeping a lost iteam is considered stealing!
So you understand it is a matter of upbringing and ones native culture. Except you live in Oklahoma now. Not tipping in most places in America is considered rude. So you're saying that just because you grew up in a place where tipping was considered rude, that's an excuse to deliberately do something you know is considered rude here? When in Rome...
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Karsten Rutledge
Linux User
Join date: 8 Feb 2005
Posts: 841
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04-18-2006 20:10
From: Surreal Farber No. Tipping in countries where tipping is expected is an example of good manners. Acting everywhere as though your culture is more important than your host country is an example of parochialism. Beat me to it. What she said.
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Persephone Phoenix
loving laptopvideo2go.com
Join date: 5 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,012
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04-18-2006 20:17
From: Isablan Neva You've answered your own dilema. You own more land than your income can support without subsidies. It does suck that there aren't more layers of tier as you get up into the upper reaches of land ownership, it certainly is one reason keeping me at 1/4 sim. In order to meet expenses, you need to tier down to what you can afford. That is a basic, smart business decision. Yes but here's the rub: If I do not sell to known entities, (as a target of griefer attentions for speaking my mind) I will be lagged out of existence. This has happened to me before. The problem is, everyone I know is not buying land: they are selling it. The only ones buying land are buying private islands, not sims. And if they are buying sims, they expect to split it up into 512s and sell them as suburbia, which would mean selling my whole property. a themed sim (or 3/4 of a sim) is really quite a lot lmore effective than a themed 1/4 of a sim surrounded by tickytacky houses. also, then there goes the prims that are used to attract people to the site. It will be what you see every other place in sl: a strip mall. A reeeeeeeeeeeely expensively and handsomely built and furnished . . . strip mall.
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Usagi Musashi
UM ™®
Join date: 24 Oct 2004
Posts: 6,083
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04-18-2006 20:25
From: Surreal Farber No. Tipping in countries where tipping is expected is an example of good manners. Acting everywhere as though your culture is more important than your host country is an example of parochialism. Which is happening in japan more and more in westernized parts of japan like Okinawa. As the western compnaies come in and setup their business so do they way they treat there workers meaning the lack of understanding how business is done and so on. Hence many japanese are starting to take waht they can get because they are not being treated as good as before working for western compnaies in japan. mind you, not all most in the most part i refering too.
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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04-18-2006 20:49
From: Jon Marlin Yes, I am aware of those terms, and what the difference is. There isn't really any confusion, at least not on my part. LL already cancelled DI, which was costing them a big chunk of change (real money) every month. What they're cancelling now is daily dwell payments, which really don't amount to much for most people. If you've got high enough traffic to be making serious money off dwell, you should be able to convert that traffic into sales or profits somehow without LL needing to give you a handout. - Jon First of all, it is not a "handout". Dwell was conceptualized as a reimbursement to people who created content interesting enough to attract customers to Second Life, which is hosted by a profit-oriented multi-million dollar company called Linden Lab. It was an incentive payment, not a "handout". NOW there is no confusion. Secondly, for a sim owner daily dwell can amount to a significant amount, especially if multiple sims are held. We have organized our sims to be self-supporting through some serious work and some serious management. That does not lessen the value of daily dwell payments, nor does it remove incentive to attract people to our sims. With the elimination of dwell as well as DI, our reason for holding regular events, for advertising our sims, for promoting our group-- just went to zero. There is only limited benefit to us for doing so, and we're not in this to make Linden Lab richer. Our only incentive now for attracting traffic will be because we just happen to want to, for our own entertainment. So now when we feel like it, we might consider having an event. When we want to, we might have a dance. There is now considerably less incentive for us-- or for thosands of other SL users, to spend time doing so any more. I was behind on my favorite television shows anyway. You see, Second Life not only competes with other 3D-VR sites-- it competes with every other form of entertainment on the planet. And when people find other things more beneficial and useful than SL... it won't be just our sims that drop in traffic. It will be Second Life itself. And that, now that I think of it, is going to be the most immediate effect of this decision. As one person of another group (which was just barely making tier as it was) recently said, "Well, there goes OUR group!" Welcome to Second Life, where all decisions are features.. are features.. are features...
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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04-18-2006 21:01
From: Siggy Romulus I disagree. There are many nice to have or interesting items that are not available for free - even though they are reasonably priced. I'm with you Siggy. While it's often been accurately stated in these forums that a newbie can join SL and not pay a dime for an entire year and still have lots of fun, that there are freebies all over SL and many of those freebies are very nice... that doesn't alter the fact that not everything is free. It is obvious that there are thousands of poeple who are willing to pay for other items, items that appeal to their particular wants. I've been on SL for almost a year and a half and have never purchased hair. For others however, they've spent a fortune on hairdos. Some have never purchased an avatar other than their own personal av. I've spent thousands of L$ on avatars; I collect the things. Everyone has their preference. If someone wants to play for free, that is absolutely possible on SL. But there are people who work for a living on SL (not me... I work hard but it's more like a semi-pro hobby.  ). There are people to whom SL is more important than RL and they have bought homes, cars, furniture and everything else to make their SL experience more realistic and comfortable. One user I know of drops $80 a month in SL purchases (that's $80 US, not L$) and does so because she just LOVES to shop. It doesn't matter that the stuff sits in her inventory or goes in her yard sale next week... shopping is her entertainment. So like you point out, while there are freebies, and good ones, not everything is free. And even if SL went non-economy, those things wouldn't be free-- the people who made them would just close shop, shut down and leave. LL can't have it both ways. Either the system is economy based and requires some incentives somewhere to boost that economy-- or it isn't and it goes to a free trade system. But I do think if such decisions as have been made lately continue... the future does not look bright. If anyone wants to destroy an economy, here's how: wipe out the incentives, cripple the people that make the economy work, and proffer a broken financial system that daily devaluates the currency. Seems like LL is batting -1000 and right on track.
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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04-18-2006 21:09
From: Persephone Phoenix Tipping musicians or performers still doesn't go to pay for the teir. It pays talent twice. the talent are paid already by the event venue. the problem is that people seem to be saying "I'll tip a performer if I had fun," but again, this does nothing to help pay teir. Will musicians begin renting spaces to play, perhaps, the way they would have to if limited to venues that make no money off of liquor sales? Unless people make money off of some bi-product (fishing equipment maybe, or gambling or whatnot) of the event, they have only a few choices to recoup costs. 1. sponsorship (the FFRC can, at its current rate of development, sustain 3 applications per week or 12 per month, though that is just a guess) 2. ticket sales (which will exclude what looks like half of the population who are unwilling to pay for tickets) 3. mixed usage (which will only work if SLers overcome the need for safe suburbia and rent in mixed usage sims) 4. Linden made content. The Lindens are prepared to pay thousands in USD to hire one artist to make content in SL (so long as the artist is young and a student. No over-30s need apply). Will this be the way of the future? Will your mom and pop event producers be GOMed? I suppose we shall see. You make some interesting points. However to clarify: not all Live Musicians are paid by their venue. Many perform to support the event out of friendship, because they agree with the cause (non-profit events such as the Katrina Jam) or because they just enjoy performing. Tips are the only pay they get (or perhaps the occasional CD sale). Live Performers on SL earn no where near what they get in RL performances. Since I don't run a club, I really have no inkling of how it is that clubs make money, how they afford raffle balls or anything like that (I know how to run an Elven nation and four sims though.  ). So I really don't know how any of them manage to pay performers. But I know the standing rate is about L2500 (which is... $8 US? That's not much for one or two hours of performing and all the practice it takes to get that good). In RL, known performers can earn $300 to $600 a gig in a pub venue... and I know where the pub gets the money to pay for that (and why a decent beer now costs $6 or more). But on SL... everyone please tip the musicians. LOL (Yes, I used to perform Live Music regularly on SL. Haven't performed in months. Somehow, four sims, 560 members and a going merchant concern take all my time. LOL). I was going to perform last night at the Dreams Fair Opening Ceremonies, but LL decided for some reason, although the grid was still up and running, to block logons for several hours of prime evening time to do system maintenance... and that was that. Sigh. That's ok. The event only took weeks to plan. Wasn't important anyway, eh LL?
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Jon Marlin
Builder, Coder, RL & SL
Join date: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 297
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04-18-2006 21:26
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer First of all, it is not a "handout". Dwell was conceptualized as a reimbursement to people who created content interesting enough to attract customers to Second Life, which is hosted by a profit-oriented multi-million dollar company called Linden Lab. It was an incentive payment, not a "handout". NOW there is no confusion.  You're right, and I apologize -- I'm really not trying to be confrontational, but I'm not doing a very good job of choosing my words...  - Jon
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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04-18-2006 21:28
From: Jon Marlin You're right, and I apologize -- I'm really not trying to be confrontational, but I'm not doing a very good job of choosing my words... - Jon  Sokay. Although I'm always perfect in my choice of words, I try to be understanding with those who aren't. Anyone wanna buy a prime swampland sim with a replica of the Brooklyn Bridge? And yeah, I don't mean to be confrontational either. Just a few certain decisions lately has set me a little on edge. The old Chinese curse: "May you live in interesting times". Things sure have been "interesting" lately. 
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Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
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04-18-2006 21:45
From: Lewis Nerd So, they decide either live music events are crap, expensive or both, and don't go to them anymore ... which then leaves them going to casinos or some other moneygrabber (paying L$50 to go to an event is expensive yet losing L$1000 at a casino is 'fun'). Actually, I agree that people can think this way, I've encountered it. I don't really understand the logic of this one. I've found it odd sometimes also, that people I've known who've complained about not making enough Lindens consider gambling a means of making money. I've always considered that it was a way to lose money. Personally, I've never even seen the 'fun' component in gambling either, but that's just me.
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Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
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04-18-2006 22:59
From: Ranma Tardis Western culture does not pay food server people the same amount that non food service people get. ... So you understand it is a matter of upbringing and ones native culture. Indeed... as it is expected to barter in some countries, and in others, (like the U.S.) attempting to barter rudely makes the cashier admit they are powerless to negotiate price for fear of losing their job. But... where there's a tip jar, or open guitar case, or upturned hat... tips usually quite welcome. -- No industry... not even theater... creates more drama... than food service. 
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Wayfinder Wishbringer
Elf Clan / ElvenMyst
Join date: 28 Oct 2004
Posts: 1,483
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04-18-2006 23:17
From: Fade Languish Actually, I agree that people can think this way, I've encountered it. I don't really understand the logic of this one. I've found it odd sometimes also, that people I've known who've complained about not making enough Lindens consider gambling a means of making money. I've always considered that it was a way to lose money. Personally, I've never even seen the 'fun' component in gambling either, but that's just me. Yup, people are funny critters. It's amazing what values they'll put on some things but not on others. World is a variety of individual tastes and opinions. People hollar and scream about not being able to afford L50 or L100... what is L50 anyway, the equivalent of US 16 cents? Gasp! Who can afford that? As a friend of mine said the other day, "I don't know why they call it common sense... since it seems to be so rare". LOL
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Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
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04-18-2006 23:17
Persephone, I would purchase the land if I had the reit avilability and monetary funds in game right now. I could guarantee lowlag, as the msot ym shop uses is a few moving water textures and sounds, and vendors. Good luck in your search.
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