Economy Announcement: Removal of Traffic Incentives

I think it is a good idea.

I agree, except that their marketing strategy is selling it as more than entertainment. It is clear to me (from reading interviews, magazine articles etc.) that one of their big selling points is the opportunity to make money playing a game. No doubt that aspect has helped to drive at least some of SL's numbers.

I agree, but the key word is OPPORTUNITY. You can, if you try. If you don't want to try, then you shouldn't expect to be subsidized for not trying. Last I checked it doesn't work that way anywhere else either. If you don't think you have the skills to do anything in Second Life (something I hear a lot), then go learn them. There's lots of places both inside and outside of Second Life that can teach you all manner of things. But that goes back to 'I don't want to work in Second Life!' I suppose. If you can't learn anything, well, that's nobody elses fault, pay for your entertainment. (Not directed at you specifically, just as a general sort of 'you.')

A lot of people have said that LL needs to lay off the 'COME MAKE MONEY' marketing and get more with the 'LOOK WHAT YOU CAN DO' and let them figure out afterwards that 'Hey, I could make money off this!' That idea has merit.

this makes me think about art painting.

a lot of people paint out there in the world who don't make a penny from their artwork. Some are good, some are atrocious... most never get any more feedback than their family member saying "are you sure you want to put that on the wall?"

and yet people keep on painting. Why?

Who pays them to paint? Nobody! But it costs money for them to paint? Why yes, you have to buy brushes and paper or canvas and oils or acrylics and gesso and palette knives and goddamn it can get expensive.

Funny. People continue to paint.


(p.s. nice post nala)

(p.p.s. it is true that there are artists out there who cannot afford to paint even though they want to, but I really don't think it is very intelligent to create a welfare system for everybody who cannot afford to do everything they want to do)

Oh, and if 'this' is this thread, don't let that alone stop you from buying land. The vast majority of land owners make a few cents a day off their dwell, if that. Unless you had plans to start a club or something, the end of Dwell shouldn't effect your land buying decision any. If you had somehow been led to believe that you got rich just from owning land, well, I'm sorry, but that doesn't happen.

Hence there should be no reason for the L to be worth real cash ??

I have no illusion that we will ever completely pay for our tier in SL with what we make and still reman competitive enough to draw renters at all..but you miss a big point, we were sold a game that said we'd get stipends and traffic payments...so i dont think im "expecting" anything that wasnt promised to us orginally.

I'm fairly certain traffic payments are promised exactly nowhere. Stipends are listed as part of the account, but like any service anywhere, that's subject to change at the providers discretion. This goes back EXACTLY to what I posted previously in this thread. Allow me to say it again:

If you don't feel like you're getting your money's worth from SL, then find something else to amuse yourself with.

Linden Lab is not in any form or fashion required to conform to what you or anyone else thinks makes a good service. Period. If we don't like the service or don't think it's worth paying for, we leave. If we like it, we stay and pay what LL asks for it. That's the way it works here and everywhere else.

And the statement about no reason for the L$ to be exchangeable is completely out in left field for this discussion. The L$ only has value because other players are willing to buy it from other players to satisfy their own wants. Whether that is or is not the case, however, matters not one bit, you're still not entitled to get it for doing nothing.

i think that says it all, and i can only imagine when SL becomes one big whore house, most of us will

Back at me? I'm pretty sure I said WE in the first place. If Second Life stops being worth my money, I'll leave too. Everyone will. Nobody is going to pay for something they hate. That's on Linden Lab's head if Second Life crashes from mismanagement, but I don't think it's in any danger of that anytime soon.

It might also surprise you to discover that a lot of people entertain themselves with things other than bumping pixels. Shocking, I know. You should look into it.

Its nice to know your speaking for (WE) and if youd read, ill be leaving when its just one big whore house, bumpin pixels isnt what (I'M) here for, its to run a business and have some level of trust from the corporation i rent server space from. At this point, who knows when and if we can expect LL to keep any promise of service we came to this game for, heck they seem to be having problems even keeping the grid open at this point.

Cyberland sponsors events also. We sponsored a live music event not too long ago, and would love to sponsor more high calibre events along these lines.

It's about time this happened. I've always thought that traffic payments were kind of 'false' - it's not something that happens for everybody in RL and only really worked well when the world was a lot smaller. It doesn't scale well though. Going forward, as the world gets bigger and bigger, traffic payments would have to have been removed - you can't expect LL to subsidise everything which, like it or not, was what traffic payments actually did. And by subsidise I mean offset some cost - they aren't exactly big payments for an individual and I can't think of any model that could maintain itself financially on the traffic payments.

This now leaves LL with a single point to add L$ to the economy - stipends. Again I feel that stipends are false but, in a closed economy such as SL there has to be a way to create new money going forward, otherwise the supply of L$ will dwindle as the world grows. This no doubt makes it easier to shrink or expand the amount of new L$ coming into the economy although it will be interesting to see whether removing the flexibility of having traffic payments, which affect a different dynamic of the world and hence a different section of the community, creates more problems when trying to stabalise the economy in the future.

There are still a number of sinks in the system and, I wonder, what will happen to those going forward. I see LL moving towards a simpler arrangement of injection and sinks for the economy.

I certainly hope you are right, Gwyneth.

What is your evidence that point #1 is true? My experience is that some people (maybe 1/4 of all concert goers) tip musicians and 3/4 spend no money at the event at all currently. 1% of concert goers have paid anything approaching a fair ticket price to event venue owners, from what I can tell. This isn't exhaustive research, but I've hosted a fair number of events. many of my events meet with praise like "this is my favourite event in SL" or "thank you so much for this venue" and yet... precisely one person. Ever. Has paid for it. paid me that is. one out of literally thousands of event goers has thought to tip the venue owner at an actual event. I occasionally got donations for space (maybe $40L per month). I hope this changes, but right now, it is really really hard for me to believe that the SL population, keen on calling event producers "leeching" are willing to pay for their own entertainment.

This leaves us with model #2: Sponsorship. Are businesses interested in stepping up to the bat to sponsor? Yes they are. Quite a few lend genuine support through FFRC Grants. Are these enough to pay teir with? No they are not.

What I do know is this: I used to break even. Camping chairs broke that for me though I never had them (nor moneyballs, nor dancepads, nor gimmicks. Just events that were fun and worth attending). When this happened, I went the route you described. Hired pros. Got feedback. Spent 3.5 months working toward a professional build and spent about $150,000 L plus the cost of furnishings to do that. Am I breaking even? no. Am I likely to? dunno. Doesn't look like it unless I sacrifice every last earning to the effort and never buy another outfit again. Oh and teir down by selling land to someone I trust (someone who won't lob me with spinny gridkillers or spatter bugs all over my property or have 300 open listens on his or her property, preferrably).

I know that something had to be done. I just wish there was some kind of program to reward makers of experiential content. What there is now isn't enough to allow for breaking even, as far as I can tell, unless someone is making content on 512 square m.

me too. I know that Dwell wasn't the right way, but there must be some way of breaking this stalemate caused by people who want entertainment and yet refuse to pay for it, or refuse to acknowledge the fact that the tier they pay LL has nothing to do with the content (of all kinds) they experience or want to experience in SL.

is it that entertainment in SL just isn't of high enough quality yet? possible... the platform is still at a fairly crude state... or is it that there is no virtual equivalent of liquor? or is it that people don't really need entertainment in SL as badly as some complain about it. I don't have the answer.

Personally, I give to your FFRC not for sponsorship but because I consider it sort of a civic duty in SL, and I trust you guys to pick events that are worthwhile. I can imagine that donations are not enough to cover anything requiring a big tier bill, however.

I do believe a few things. One, that markets are pretty good at filling a void where demand truly exists (and again, that is an important question... does demand truly exist the way it does for, say, a new outfit). And two, that SL is still a tiny population in the grand scheme of things and this will all change as it grows.

can this get off the ground without artificial controls by the "state" i.e. LL? well there's only one way to find out I guess.

I own and build a 26,000m2 (and growing, hopefully!) community park in Dalton. It will not be fading away due to the loss of L$1 per day, or whatever. I've never actually looked to see what the dwell payment earns.

It exists for my enjoyment, and for the enjoyment of other residents who stop by. It's purpose is not to generate L$1 per day, or whatever, worth of welfare to go towards the tier payments on 26,000m2, LOL.

The notion that anyone would shut down a build that costs dollars, over the loss of pennies, is just rediculous. So is anyone who would actually do this. I don't see why this crazy notion continues to be repeated.

How nice to encounter another FS/VATSIM user on SL. I don't have a lot of free time lately, but love to fly online when I have a chance.

You've forgotten about the hidden tax of currency devaluation, robbing us all of the value of our virtual wealth through the distribution of free wealth to others.

Several things I have gleaned from reading through this thread today (and thinking about real life issues)

a) The poster on another thread who demonstrated via maths that in a closed economy such as Second Life (that is 90%+ of everything purchased is for Second Life use only) it is only possible for a small minority of people to make money. The reason being is if you assume an average Avatar spend per month of x (the average spend) that is only a proportion of y (y = real US dollar tier), to enable a substantial minority of Avatars to earn more than y means a very substantial percentage of Avatars need to spend more than x per month. That cannot happen in a closed economy.

b) The phased withdrawal of welfare will mean that the only way to earn more than y will mean an increase in x. In (now new) real dollar cost. Again in a closed economy I do not see that happening because there is no economic benefit to be had

c) It was said that in the very early days of the Internet (1992ish UK) the only two things that may sell is money and sex (money being financial information to enable you to invest more successfully). That was wrong in the real world, but here in Second Life that may become true. In fact in world financial information is either free at point of demand or not available. That leaves sex.

d) On the sex point since joining Second Life I have refrained from being judgemental, after all what right do I have to demand everybody falls in with my own ideas and morals. And we are all consenting adults are we not...but there are limits. I have no desire to belong or participate on a platform where sex is the only commodity that will sell.

e) Shame really, this technology that powers Second Life is still radically advanced. But without First Life economic benefit for a majority of people it may never really take off commercially. And for that to happen you need (in the beginning) a stable legal fungible currency. Either real dollars or an artificial Linden currency having value and based on gold or its equal so it cannot be inflated

Just my views

You might start seeing charging for events now............Free content might be a thing of the past.

Subject to change for further payment installments at the end of a monthly. quarterly, or annual contract. Change the contracts terms mid run and you risk classaction lawsuit.

Might just be 40 bucks a person, but get 5000 people together. Not only is there a lawsuit but bad publicity that they would never live down.

I'm not entirely sure about that. I have a big piece of land, 1/4 sim that I've lanscaped to be a pleasant place. (All of the building is in the sky.) I've left it open for other people to enjoy and I don't see myself changing that any time soon.

Indeed, I've given some thought to getting a music stream going and setting up a small club of my own, for the purpose of sharing the music that I like with the small group of people in game who might also enjoy it. When the idea came to me, making money from dwell never entered my mind, and now that dwell is going away that's not going affect my decision in the slightest.

The things that are most likely to take a hit are the huge, sim killing clubs. And those, I'm definitely not bothered at seeing go.

These are the effects of removing dwell as I see them:

The people who win (due to the a better exchangerate to USD)
- shop owners
- mall owners

The people who lose
- the park owners who dont want a huge mall stuck on the side or advertising signs for a sponser
- the education places
- clubs (these often have malls so they may be ok)
- people who run many events

Who caused the change
- the mall and shop owners with their camping chairs to get higher advertising.
The camping chair payouts have always been higher than the dwell recieved from the person on your land, so the reason for the chairs contrary to what the Lindens think wasnt for the dwell.

Will the removal of dwell prevent camping chairs?
- no as its still good advertising for malls and shops as it moves them up the find

The fate of SL
- More shops and malls and less nice places to visit and see.

I see less shops and malls. There is going to be a lot less "free" money in the system thus the basic members will be down to their "welfare" check of L$50 a week. It has been shown that these members are less likely to buy Lindens than "premium" members.

A little not for all of you that want to see the Linden rise in value. Have you ever heard about "deflation" and the damage it goes to an economy? It has been affecting Japan for over 10 years now. Income goes down so people spend less which brings income down, etc. One of the biggest factors of the "Great" depression of the 1930's was deflation. There is going to be less money to spend in the shops and the Lindens are going to cost more, thus less money to spend in the shops. Be very careful of what you ask for because you might just get it and all that comes along with it!

Who of those people who are predicting doom for all kinds of businesses really run such a business? We have owners here saying they don't see why it would really affect them. As their business is one of those not employing camping chairs/... now their income from dwell is apparently neglectable. So what is it going to be? Can we please get an idea of whom is going to go out of business but from an owners point of view? Who can say: "I own a creative business today that won't survive without dwell"?

Looking at the poll in this forum it doesn't look like doom is near. Personally I've no exact idea what dwell amounts to but upto now I've always heard (from owners) it wasn't really worthwhile enough for it to be really important.

Would this be in Meins, Jack If it is, I will donate some of my time with anything you may need, including tip jars or simply texture finding.