Economy Announcement: Removal of Traffic Incentives

Ah the convict gag. Never heard that one before

big clubs and malls that rely on dwell,you think removing help things.
In long run it big fat Minor less drop can't tell,on Inflated encomy.
Malls and shops rent fee posable go higher and higher till point nobody can do shop.

Ok so what your saying is that now that you no longer need L$ - L$ are no longer needed - I get it. You bought land - ergo you needed to buy it.... case rested.

Now that you've bought what you like - nothing else needs to be bought.

Nothing need be bought - by you. You are free to do as you wish - this is not true of every player in SL. If a player wishes to make a build that will last - they need land, which means they need to buy it.

Neither dwell nor stipends will affect me either. However there are things for sale that greatly enrich the second life experience for some - and for some of them simply aren't available for free - and there are no free substitutes. To enjoy them you will need to buy them and thus compensate-reward the creator.

but I can see from you discussions on tipping you're not much into rewarding anyone but yourself - thats ok though, but what's good for you may not be good for everybody.

It's also, for me, about the fact that the person who serves my coffee is making a wage below the poverty line.

In Australia there is nowhere near the prevelant of tipping as there is here in the US - but then again the minimum wage is above the poverty line and a minimum award wage MUST be paid by an employer (unless things have drastically changed since I was home) - socialised medicine also helped.

So - tips for good service only.

Here in the states - going through the immigration process, and my own life experience as a blue collar worker certainly make me appreciate the hardships, and if my buck tip for a timely cup of joe helps the lady at the pour out - thats a wonderful thing.

Of all the things I've ever had to bitch about, giving a buck or two to the server who puts up with a lot of shit in a day is very low on my priority, and folks that don't tip -- well lets just say I won't go out to lunch with a cheapass, and they can forget a round of beers at the pub.

Each culture has it own way to reward people. In Japan there is bonus money that gets paid twice a year. In the middle of the year and at the end of the year. Depending on the company the amount of this could be one or more months pay. I like to make sure the people that work for me get a good bonus for the great job that they do for the company and me Perhaps it is not the concept of the tip but the one that pays it to the employee. Customer directly to the employee as in a tip vs Customer to Company to Employee as a bonus.

About money in Sl, I only need it to buy new things. I have bought everthing needed. I wish my RL car worked like my SL one. Never needing repairs, fuel or registration fees.

I have so my stuff in my inventory it is hard to find anything! One just tends to pick up all sorts of things just playing. From my clothing, buildings, vehiciles to my colection of Linden Bears. Oh yes I have bought my share of stuff in SL. I just dont need any thing else. That new dress might be nice but it is not worth spending real money on it!

Siggy, not to enforce my personal values on you and not to play "moderator" but after two such messages in a row...

Haven't these forums now been declared by LL to be considered generally "PG13"?

C'mon, this has been mentioned before. Don't force calling a moderator-- again.

Don't forget cultural values. If this is an international forum, then why can't an Aussie use language that would be culturally appropriate.

I respect this as your opinion and it's even well stated. As a response of opinion, a quote from a statement my dad made to me when I was a child, and has always stuck with me:

"It takes no intelligence to use obscene language. It is the last refuge of those who cannot think of anything more intelligent to say, or who don't care enough about other people to use acceptable language."

Either way you look at it, in a public area certain social graces are expected. Failure to exercise such generally-accepted graces is widely considered either a lack of vocabulary ability or a bad attitude. And when Ranma courageously brought such up-- especially in PG-13 forums-- he/she is totally in the right and the offender-- offensive.

When someone uses such vernacular to "make a point", I mentally put his post where it rightly belongs... in the trash bin. And if it continues-- I put it in the moderator bin.

I hope you're just kidding around.

But if not... because... (Wayfinder takes his best "explaining to the kiddies" tone)... declaration of international forum does not override basic TOS and forum rules. In some areas child pornography may be legal. But let someone just try posting such here and see how long he lasts... BOOT!

Yeh, I know, LL would have to make a few changes in their cost structure. On the other hand without all the "rights system" nonsense they could open-source the protocols and license the software and you could run a sim on your own colo box...

(grinning, ducking, and running)

You know, that does sound kinda kewl. Except my ISP would have an absolute fit. LOL

Actually, I kinda like LL having control of SL. Just don't always agree with some of their priorities or management concepts. Similar with Micro$oft... I don't object at all to a centralized common operating system (makes a lot of sense in fact)... I just don't so much like some of Micro$oft's policies-- such as charging 4 times what the OS is worth, requiring a totally separate copy of that ultra-expensive software for your desktop and laptop, charging $1 a minute for service calls that are primarily due to bugs in their software, and a ram-hungry, gluttoned slob of an operating system that others were doing better and sleeker and security-safer-- but Micro$oft used federally illegal methods to drive into the ground.

Not that I'm comparing LL with Micro$oft. I rambled a bit there (sooo frustrated with Windows at times... lol). Just that I would like to have a leetle more control over administration of my hard work than I currently have (such as backup of my inventory and sims on my local system in case of a major server crash, and local access of such data to reduce those interminable system lags when I SEARCH inventory... and the ability as a group founder to actually communicate with my group... lol).

Positive side though (forgive the rambling.. blame my 5th piece of Hershey's Dark Chocolate Almond Bites)... I have heard through reliable source than in a coupla weeks expanded group functions will be primed for testing in Preview, and released asap thereafter... but that LL is being REALLY careful with it due to the existence of permissions and increased powers. Hey, I have NO argument with features having a cautious release date.

Where do you live now?

Simple enough question - if you live in a country that is not Japan, you can hardly pull the culture card on matters you pick and choose. If you live in the US (as I do at the moment) then you abide what is acceptable in that country if you want what that country has to offer.

How about I live in Japan and refuse to bow because I think it's silly? How many people am I likely to offend in a single day?

But I'm seeing a pattern here - accept what is good for you and discard what isn't.

Last I checked you weren't on the moderators list - but if you feel you need to call one, go for it.

I speak how I speak and my opinions are my own - as are how I express them. If you don't like it, don't read, play net nanny, whatever gets you through the day.

However, I won't bother listening to people who tell me how to speak - so save your finger typing and preach to someone else. Possibly someone who gives a shit.

so it's hard to accept that in our culture our fathers may have spoken to us in a different way?

My fathers language was quite colorful - and his intelligence was diminished not a jot.

Again - your raising is not our raising - your values may not be our values...

Your modes of expressing yourself may not be ours.

I used my post as a basis of what was acceptable in one culture may not be acceptable for another - thank you for proving my point.

Dwell shouldn't be considered a "handout".

Maybe a "mismanaged clickthrough program".

Every now and then, for obscure reasons, a dolphin will come to frequent a beach where people swim. This has been happening for thousands of years, and in recent years there have been several seaside towns that have benefitted from the tourists that came to see their "friendly dolphins".

In the ancient world, however, when a bunch of Patricians from Rome came to visit a seaside town, they brought their own food and servants, to their own villas, and in general disripted the townspeople's lives. In some cases they would commandeer the plebians houses... so on occasion the townspeople would kill the dolphin to drive the annoying tourists away.

Without dwell, there's no incentive (however small) for landowners to encourage visitors.

I think you've hit it on the head. I've been wondering just where the loss of dwell would hit. It's going to hit in services, it's going to lead to more ban-lines, fewer public places, and an even less friendly Second Life.

And that means fewer customers and less money for Linden Labs.

If the Lindens think that shutting down all of the "entitlements" will rid SL of the dreaded camping chair, think again, once stipends are gone, bet yer happy ass, mine will be in someones camping chair EVERY nite !

Nobody would think much of a foreigner not bowing. You might hear a gaijin da but I doubt it.

Everone picks the things they like best. Americans are very good about only doing what they want. I have probally picked up their bad habits from close association with them You have a real thing about tiping.

I still dont see any negitive impact upon me from the recent changes. I will not miss the small payments

YES but come on Okinawa is so westernized if to funny as they say. what the population where of american forces? more then some 3rd world countries.......

Those are fighting word rabbit from the eastern captial! You know that Okinawa has its own unique culture which is not Japanese? The Ryukyu kingdom was a tributary state of China for hundreds of years. We even have our own language Hogan.

Okinawa is no more "westernized" than the mainland. There are a lot of American bases there as well!

Again - not an American so I wouldn't know - not a real thing about tipping - I'm noticing how your discussions on selective culture spill over into selective wants/needs in Second Life.

As for me - I'm glad dwell is going - I entered this discussion soley upon seeing what I beleive were broad generalizations , which were also falsehoods.

(I originally said)

"Keep in mind that being too adaptable can be a sign of lacking integrity... or resolve or whatever it is that makes people do the same thing they've always done expecting the same results when the world around them changes. Not good, or bad, just different I guess."

Sorry... My pre-caffeinated brain is never very articulate. (You'd think I'd learn not to post things while eating breakfast!) I think I was trying to be subtle and snide at the same time and tragically muddled the point. I think I meant something like:

Without being hypocrtical... How can we criticize someone for being insensitive to the customs of other cultures... if xenophobia is an intrinsic part of their cultural heritage?

(and before anyone cries foul, I'm not referring to any one specfic culture as being xenophobic but several, nor am I condeming them for it).

Being unwilling to compromise one's behavior can be viewed as 'strength of character' ... or as 'stubborn' depending on the viewer and circumstance. Being adaptible to foreign cultures can be viewed as 'culturally aware' or (by more closed minded types) as 'two faced' or even 'traitorous'.

Anyway, if payment customs occur in RL, they'll probably appear in the melting pot of SL, and it will be interesting to see how well various models work out.

Curiously enough, in the U.S. it's considered inappropriate to tip the owner of an establishment if they serve you... though many will accept it rather than correct you. Managers and supervisors are typically exempt from the shared tip pool at places as well.

(which is why LL gets no tips?) Obviously parcel owners feel empowered to ask for tips though... (though I prefer to call them donations, not tips)

Anyway, far more countries don't do tipping than I thought...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping

And don't get me started on etiquette differences over asking for vs. being given the check at the end of a meal. At least we don't have to deal with that in SL.

There. Clear as mud? Hmm... Where is my @#(%&@# coffee?

--
Doorman: Hope you enjoyed your stay Mr. S
Sinatra: Thanks kid, what's the biggest tip you ever got?
Doorman: $100, Mr. S
Sinatra: Here's $200
Doorman: Thanks Mr. S!
Sinatra: Who gave you a hundred dollar tip anyway?
Doorman: You did Mr. S

Wayfinder- (sorry for the late follow-up, it wasn't until I saw Argent's response that I had this thought).

This butterknife has two edges.

Yes, I agree the motivation to host events will wain somewhat after Dwell income is gone.

But the flipside view is legit too:

I think dwell-hunger resulted in a lot of contrived and inane events that had no value to anyone but the host. I'm not normally a jaded and bitter sort... but after one too many pointless but seemingly well-intentioned events that clearly ended up as dwell-gimmicks... i just stopped looking at the events list unless I seriously needed a few minutes of tringo.
(which is rare)

It won't get rid of the events with the chief aim of suckering people into areas surrounded by shops, but if it helps thin out some of the deceptive events posted for dwell, I'm very happy with the change.

--
One less circumspect motive.

You're right. It's a double-edge sword. The clubs and other concerns will still hold events. I do believe this move will serve to yet further reduce the number of good, entertaining, fun events. SL is quickly becoming one large shopping mall / porn shop... and this move is likely to increase that factor.

After I posted my statement about "our incentive for holding events to draw taffic just went to zero"... I realized that we still might want to draw people to our merchants. But then again... it's a Catch 22. We have land to host our merchants and residents, who pay for land so we can afford to host our merchants and residents to...

If we lose merchants, then we have more land available for residents. If we keep merchants, perhaps they will start hosting events if we don't. After all, merchants need to promote their shops... not just build and expect others to sell their stuff for them (frankly, L250 a week doesn't do much in paying for my time).

It all comes back to: the only reason we'll host events is because we want to. And chances are, there will be more fun things I can find to do than host yet another BattleMace competition.

Predictable results: we're about to see the whole attitude of land and private sim owners change, in several ways:

* They will likely become more closed, less generous, more business-oriented.
* Those who were here for the profit will become more cut-throat in earning that profit. Advertising through "spam" events will increase (if that is even possible) and SL will become even more commercial than it already is.
* Those who were operating on a shoestring budget to start with will sell and close their lands... likely to more malls and sex shops and clubs.
* Those who were paying sim fees out of pocket will pretty much remain the same... but without any incentive at all will close their borders to "members only" and a significant chunk of SL will become closed sims.
* People will start looking to their own interests and totally stop supporting SL and Linden Lab.

LL stated this was being done to remove abuse of an existing system, and one can certainly understand that decision-- because the system was being abused-- just as ratings once were. But they have closed out a major incentive without providing the promised replacement to deserving content-developer lands. So why should anyone devote their time further to promoting Linden Lab interests? I'm not here to help Linden Lab grow richer.

As you wish. Since you have no regard for forum rules, refuse to follow them, and lack the maturity and decency to have consideration for others... we'll call in those who will arrange that for you.