Economy Announcement: Removal of Traffic Incentives

Well, the other side to the coin is this...

We are not made aware of every peice of research that goes into a decision, nor are we privy to the discussions behind the scenes about that research. To assume that they are acting without thinking doesn't make sense to me.

I wouldn't even call that cynical. I'd call it realistic.

I do agree, it's good that they are prepared to re-evaluate what they do.

Well, gaming dwell takes several forms.

Dwell was designed to encourage content. It was based strictly on body count and units of time that body count existed. What does body count have to do with content? Ill-conceived method of measuring dwell from day one.

So... (and mind you, I am not slamming clubs in general because I've visited a few nice ones that were lots of fun)... sleazy clubs started having COME AND HAVE SEX "events". Well, that attracts bodies for sure, without any content. All you have to do is build a cube, put in a couple of lights and a url in the media slot. I've been to clubs where everyone was standing around doing nothing. No chat, no movement, it was dull, dull dull. No event host to encourage activity, no raffle balls, no contests... NOTHING. Sheer body count and (I would guess, considering) massive cyber. That's probably not the "content" LL had in mind in establishing incentives.

Another method: people and their friends create several alts. Log them all in at one time and bring them all to the same location. Ping the system and viola! Instant dwell.

Other ways are to offer fake events... "yard sales" that are actually just standard vending on open ground. "Movies" that are camoflage events for camping chairs. (You can always tell. At the real movie events... people chat). The methods of gaming dwell are endless.

Of particular note (and hey, I know I'm probably going to be hung for this)... is TRINGO and similar games. Sure, they're fun. Sure, people like them. They draw people by the droves. And I might even concede they are a form of content. People go to them. They play. They chat. OK, not my kind of event, but there is no questioning its popularity. It might even be called "content".

But hey, anyone with a few L$ can buy and set up a tringo game. They're not creating "content"... they're setting up a business. They can draw a percentage off of each game and reap the dwell as well. In the meantime, such pseudo-events draw traffic away from those who spend a lot of time actually building content rather than just buying it.

So, those are just a few ways of "gaming" the system... some worse than others. But system was surely gamed, surely needed to be changed... but the way that change is brought about is important to the success of such a move.

Well, yes it would, because I don't gamble.

I doubt I would spend $500 just to find out if my project would receive funding or not.

coco

Of all of them, that part makes most sense to me. I didn't know about that.

But as for the notion of simply "creating content" - yes, all those things do create content, and people come to them because of the content (physical and social) that they create. "Come and have sex" events are content, too. Maybe not the kind of content you or I or the Lindens prefer, but content nonetheless, and content that brings people to SL and can also turn people in premium players.

coco

I appreciate your opinion; disagree with it fully.

No matter where, what, who, there are some aspects of social conduct that are be universal (although granted, people do seem to be getting a little more stupidly self-destructive as time passes). Murder is considered wrong across the board. So is torture, theft, lying. Even in areas where it is not recognized as wrong (such as in cannibalistic tribes), it is generally recognized that those societies are brutal and uncivilized. Obscene language is a concept recognized in every developed country, even in Australia. American or not (and yes, I'm American.. as are about 80% of the users of Second Life), there are principles of civility that are common knowledge, and as far as I can discern, there are indeed "generallly accepted graces". And when someone intentionally goes against those accepted graces, they have no right to grouse because someone else brings those improper activities to light.

In the case of these forums however, there is no gray area here at all. These are decided as PG-13 forums by Linden Lab, the company who sponsors them. That's how it is, their rules. People who use these forums should be able to expect those rules to be followed. And those who intentionally break forum rules should expect reprisals and consequenses. That's a pretty straight forward concept, no matter where you live.

Eh you obviously didn't read the post in its entirety then or the context it was made in.

And if I use the word 'shit' - occassionally in my posts - big deal, for you it's profanity, for me it isn't.. even the word 'fuck' is near commonplace nowadays. And for the record it has been stated that the forums are PG in the same way as PG in world - not your PG13 rating.

Which is ok for you not to 'buy' what I said - go back and read the original post, its all in context. I don't 'buy' the claim that your uber offended either - skip the post or ignore it, it's not skin of my rosey nose one way or another as I'm sure if I cross the line into indecency someone who actually has authority will let me know (ie: A Linden).

At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you 'buy' or don't - others read it and took it as it was written, just because you didn't - doesn't make it any less valid.

Sorry Cocoanut, I meant L$500. I might have been a bit vague there. And maybe more is needed, dunno. But I think L500 would stop most people from filing bogus applications... or if they did, it would only be once and at the forfeit of that L500 when their application was rejected. Maybe L2500 would be a better figure. They might be willing to drop $1.50US for a joke... but they might think twice about spending $10US to do so.

For those who do develop rich content, L500 is nothing, and it would be refunded once their application was accepted. But yeah I agree with you... $US500 would be a chunk. LOL

Actually, not so sure about that one. As several people pointed out, those who spend all their times at clubs cybering don't tend to go Premium. It was even suggested that freebie users (Basics) not be counted toward traffic for that very reason.

It's not a gamble, it's a risk. I don't gamble either. In business, you have to take risks, there is no way not to, you just have to assess the risk versus return.

PG-13 Rating:
Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. This signifies that the film rated may be inappropriate for pre-teens. Parents should be especially careful about letting their younger children attend. Rough or persistent violence is absent; sexually-oriented nudity is generally absent; some scenes of drug use may be seen; one use of the harsher sexually derived words may be heard.

So you're saying we're in compliance if a post only says fuck once?

Thoroughly enjoyed reading your post. A logical, well-stated presentation of alternative thoughts... and made me think about the matter further.

Yes, I agree I've wondered if the concept of sim subsidies are actually necessary. I had the same questions about event subsidies... but it turned out that event quality took a serious downfall when those subsidies were removed. Every business has an investment in advertising. For SL, quite a bit of their advertising comes from the content people see when they enter the world. The question is: what do they see? And that's where the whole subsidy issue lies.

When LL removed event subsidies, they didn't blame the economy or anything else. They said, "We feel it's no longer needed." When they removed Ratings rewards, they didn't hide the reason. "It's been abused, the idea is outdated, we're eliminating it." That's not been done here. There are a lot of questions of intent that people are asking. Could be, this whole thread is based on a case of LL not keeping their customers informed. As someone pointed out (might have been you, in fact), we don't know all the data that goes behind LL decisions. They often make a decision that strongly affects their clients, without making any effort to explain why (or alternately, giving reasons that are just a little transparent and hard to swallow).

Is dwell necessary for continued good content? I think we'll see some valuable content die because of this decision. I don't think we'll see good content replace it... more than likely just more mall/club/sex shops will do so. That's exactly what happened with events... and no one seems to be learning the lesson of history.

But again, your message was very well stated and I'll probably go back and re-read it a couple of times as this thread and thoughts further develop. It will be interesting to see how many of your observations turn out to be true.

$L 500 is what, a couple of bucks US? Seems like a moderate risk.

I don't gamble either, but in some ways any business is a gamble, so everything you put into it is at risk. Don't around 80% of all real life businesses fail in the first 5 years? I wonder if SL's numbers are higher or lower.

I still wince when I hear how much Anshe has riding on SL. I would have that money tucked away in conservative mutual funds (or a mayo jar under the bed..ummm, several mayo jars).

No I'm sorry Wayfinder I don't agree, I don't feel these things are as universal at all.

What constitutes obscene differs greatly, and our PG and your PG seems to differ. We also had no idea what that whole Janet Jackson superbowl thing was about, no matter what timeslot it was in, we wouldn't have blinked. And the language thing just is different here.

Well, I intend on someday having a large scale project going. Lots of content. I have been in the planning stages for some time, and will not be working on it in-world until I have the whole thing sketched/planned out.

I don't care if I get paid for popularity. My goal is to produce high quality content. I do not intend to have a sex club, and if I ever have a casino, I sure as hell won't do what everyone else does. There is a difference between what we have now in SL for casinos and what I would have in mind... but again... that isn't my focus or part of my plans.

I don't need handouts from LL for my content to motivate me to produce my content. If I need income, I will do what every organization does. I'll solicit donations, and use other ventures to fund my project.

Both points are perhaps valid. Camping chairs distort dwell, draw it away from those who deserve it, damage the economy. But they may have to do very little with the value of the L$.

I'm going to be very blunt here, without having any intent of being anti-LL. I'm just stating what I believe to be fact: the blame for devaluation of the L$ rests solely upon the shoulders of Linden Lab, no one else.

They're the ones who hand out L$ in the first place-- and they decide how many of those to hand out and they're the ones who hand them out by the truckload to non-paying members. It's Linden Lab that has set up an unregulated "stock market" approach to LindenX. They're the ones responsible for establishing effective L$ sinks... but they don't apply those consistently or universally so that all users share the burden. Instead, they pick on a specific class and push the burden of economic change on them.

The entire distribution, control and flow of the L$ is exclusively the property of Linden Lab... and they're the only ones to look at when the economy starts going wonky. I'm pretty sure they realize this and would agree with it. According to announcements, they're trying to solve the problem (they even hired an economist). But... economy is not a hard science and I've known professional businessmen who knew far more about the flow of money than economist doctorates. It's even an old joke: put ten economists in a room and know what you get? Ten different recommendations.

LL is a business. The value of the L$ is part of that business. Like any aspect of business, if it is not managed properly, it's going to get messed up and possibly even fail altogether. When any aspect of a business isn't working, here is the common business-approach to solve the problem: stop doing what we're doing, try a new approach, put someone else in charge who seems to have a better handle on things, fix it. The solution is to be pro-active. Continual "what-if" scenarios, badly conceived and badly implemented steps, and halfway measures only lead to further problems.

When LL created LindeX, I thought it was a great idea. Would simplify buying and selling of the L$, put the power back in the hands of LL so that they could control and stabilize the economy. But what did they do? They set it up to run almost exactly like GOM...which had already failed and caused the value of the L$ to go all over the board. It was rarely stable at all, was always either way too high or too low and people constantly complained. Yet LL chose to follow that damaged model. I and others told them at the time that they should take a new approach, but they decided not to. The result: the value of the L$ has dropped over 17% during the inception of LindeX. GOMs flawed business model remains flawed. And there's only one party responsible for that. It isn't the merchants, it isn't the land barons, it isn't the clubs or the newbies or the Premiums. It's the company in control of it all. "The buck stops here".

(oops, that might actually be a whole different topic there. But... it's all finance realted and interwoven. Decisions made regarding L$, dwell, etc, affect the bottom line and customer perceptions and eventually... the value of the L$).

Uh, if I read this correctly...

Surreal was discussing BASIC/freebie stipends, but Argent responded to a concept of removing Premium stipends. I don' think anyone has mentioned anything about cutting Premium stippends-- which are not "given" to Premium members-- it's part of their purchase contract. Thus, selling land, etc. really doesn't come into the picture.

Take your own advice. If you don't like my response to his post... take it to the Lindens. By your own concepts... how do you have any right to tell me what to do? Since I'm Midwest American and people among my social structure object to blatant obscenity... hey, it's an international forum... right? That includes midwest USA society, if I remember correctly.

If you have the right to voice your opinion... so do others. Even if such happens to disagree with your personal views.

OR... HOLD IT! WHY, IT JUST OCCURRED TO ME! Why don't we all just declare all of the forum rules open to personal individual interpretation and allow everyone to police himself, individually. Why, then we can extend that policy to Second Life itself (surely the griefers will comply) and why... even the world. With all its various and divserse cultures, it's obvious no one agrees about anything. So why don't we just leave everything up to individual, personal interpretation of policy and let everyone make his own decision about what he wants to do. And if anyone objects, we'll persecute the objector for having the gall to even insinuate there are general concepts of consideration that should be honored.

Then, when we have the forum, SL, and the world all nice and individualized and totally tolerant, when we have outlawed all judgement or observations being voiced, when individual opinion and chaos and anarchy have taken firm hold, we can all sit back and bet on how long we'll manage to survive.

Somehow, it's the people who preach against preaching that strike me as being the more hypocritical.

Because Vashuda Linden didn't qualify the original comment referenced in "the economic Linden has already said that stipends aren't needed to drive the economy" to simply "Basic stipends". He or she was talking about all stipends.

That's llGetListLength(seen_today);. Doh.

But you were responding to a direct statement made by Surreal. And to be honest, I don't really think anyone took Vashuda's statement to apply to PREMIUM members. In fact, hasn't really been proffered by Linden Lab as likely to be applied to Basic members that I know of (although it certainly makes sense to stop giving away free L$ to non-paying people in an economy already glutted by L$).

Just came across to me as Surreal talking about apples and you responding about pizzas.

The third side of the coin is that I have been privy to what went on behind some lamentably stupid decisions in the industry, and the reasons for these stupid decisions were atrociously bad. Sometimes they were literally a case of people not doing fundamental research. Sometimes they were a case of someone with the kind of political attitude of some of the posters here pushing a bad decision through against the efforts of less well connected people. Sometimes they were made to cover up a previously bad decision.

It's possible that LL is an exception.

But the software development environment at LL has been described in detail by their developers. People work on what looks interesting out of the list of things that are considered important to get done. And there's a lot of just plain bad code that's obvious to anyone experienced in (for example) compiler design, and that someone who understands what's going on could fix in a week.

Given that this software is their crown jewels, and they treat it so casually, it's hard to avoid the conclusion that they're equally shonky on the economic side.

The same thing that money has to do with content. They're both objective ways of testing whether that content is attractive to the people who are spending money or spending time on or at that content. This is how Google's Pagerank works, and despite being far more aggressively gamed it works pretty damn well.

The difference between Pagerank and Dwell is that when someone games Pagerank, Google doesn't let them do it for nine months then get rid of Pagerank, Google has someone looking at the results and tuning the inputs full time, so that the best way to "game Pagerank" is to simply have pages that people find relevant to the keywords the pages are ranked on.

That's what Linden Labs should be doing with the economy, making small continual changes and measuring the results of those changes. NOT letting a bad situation get worse and then throwing out the baby, bathwater, and nursemaid together.

I think this discussion is important and I hate derailing threads, so I started a thread if you care to drop in and continue the discussion.

/108/ca/101645/1.html

I'm going to respond to your points here though.



It's not my style to take a post to a moderator for language. I think I've ARed 2 posts in the two years I've been here... and they were egregious hate speech. I'm not telling you what you can do. I'm objecting to you telling me what I can do based on your values. Part of your advice was to use the Ignore icon, which I wholely agree with.

BTW... I just moved from the midwest and it's rude to talk to an adult like a child. Since it's rude in your culture (and mine), I responded accordingly. You meant to be rude... that's what counts for me.


Absolutely. I welcome debate and discourse. Especially if intelligent, which this has so far been.



This is where I think the confusion is coming from. I'm talking about language, not behavior. The word and the act are not the same. The TOS has clear rules about many things. Robin Linden posted about what constituted PG for graphics in the forums (no naughty bits). I contend that "PG13" is meaningless for the forums without a Linden definition or list. I don't object to following rules where they exist. I object to being told by a resident I must follow their rules in an open forum.

Fair enough.
I don't see any other way to take it, and that is how it's been taken by quite a few people other than myself. And it's true: if Linden Labs abandoned the stipend and the whole premium/basic distinction, and just had accounts and tier, the economy would chug along just fine. You'd buy Lindens on LindeX and pay tier for your land...

It's not the economy that needs stipends, it's Linden Labs. They need the Premium stipends to justify the cost of Premium accounts, and they need the Basic stipends to keep the in-game numbers up... because without Basics the world would be even more empty than it is now.