We need THREE types of Sim ? Rationale and suggestion

I think we can safely conclude that you are going on ignore.

U one teh intarweb!!!1!11!

Um?

The rule simply says if you (island owner) want to sell then you must sell the whole Island, all or nothing.

Just because you have rented/deeded plots to other players doesn't affect this. It's up to the owner to find a buyer who is willing to continue/honor those deeds or to kick out the renters before selling.

Deeding doesn't give renters any special ability to prevent themselves from being booted out. It simply makes management of rental properties easier for both parties.

The renter can terraform, etc without having to bother the owner everytime a change is needed.

The owner is able to rent plots in a much more 'hands off' manner.

Racer P. (renter )

Is there a contest going on that I didn't know about?

I thought this was a discussion.

Keyword: Rent

Several people want these 'rentals' (and yes I know they are far more than a standard rental) to be called 'sales' and listed with other true land sales. Some of us want them termed differently and listed separately.

Heh yeah, Anshe either missed that key sentence or has more balls than we give her credit for.

Yes but that is part of the free market economy. That is no different then selling printers for next to nothing but charging an arm and leg for inks. There are many many examples of this is the free market economy.

What it sounds like is your asking for government intervention, somthing the Lindens have stated they are unwillilng to do. Something I am unsure I really want either.

Just a thought.

Anyone offering land "free" but with increased "tier" to compensate would have little justification in wanting their deal called anything but "rental".

But on current showing they might still try to argue it was to be called a "land sale".

More interesting would be the more sophisticated offerings I expect to see soon. They could take many forms. Like perhaps "rent to buy", where your increased "tier" slowly "buys" the land, so you "own" it after, say 6 months.

Or maybe something from the other end of the scale, where a single lump payment gets you full "ownership" of the land for a year, with nothing further to pay (ie the true tier is paid for you for a year).

Or "balloon leases" (know what they are) ? I could go on and on.

In my opinion all these should be welcomed and encouraged. I think these attempts to muddy the water by wanting to pretend these new deals are the same as land sales (often, I have been trying to refrain from pointing out, put forward by those who've already invested) are totally counterproductive, and make us take our eyes off the ball.

These new offers will hopefully be exciting and diverse. They won't need to try to hide in someone else's clothes.

New career opportunity coming up in SL? Financial adviser ?

A big concern now, in my opinion, is this:

I believe that economic considerations will shortly force LL inevitably to start rationing "deedable" private sims along with the others. To be fair to those who want these rationed goods, they must be either auctioned or allocated by lot.
To keep a level playing field with all those who previously bought normal sims at auction, auction looks inevitable.

Both rationing and auctioning have been specifically suggested on forum by the very person who just bought 13 without either. If they happen it will be a total windfall for her (well, maybe not, windfalls are accidental ).

My concern is that if everyone who tries to compete with her has now to go more slowly, and compete on price to buy, they simply won't be able to catch her up. She saw the opportunity, scooped up an incredible 13 sims (maybe before LL realised the full implications), and once the inevitable restrictions cripple her competitors, she's unassailable.

I say again. Deserving of our admiration, even if tinged with displeasure.

If the competition never kicks in, the only diversity we'll get is what the monopolist decides.

Actualy if you gave the land away for free but only charged teir for it you would still make a profit. Even at the samerate as LL does.

I rent/own/lease (pick the term you like) 1/4 of a sim from Anshe, the reasons I do are mine. It is a Elven themed sim, only elven builds allowed.. controlled sim enviroment. I pay same teir to her as I would to LL's. Renting all four 1/4 parcels would net her $300/month on a $195/month sim. A profit of $105.. now knowing that sims cost $980 to start you would have to continiously teir that land for 10 months to even break even though.

Just to squelch conspiracy: I have been lobbying for private island sims to be included in auction system before I even owned one single private island sim. While this do not fit into the rich-is-evil believe system some people here seem most comfortable with, it is true that at least sometimes Anshe is not driven by greed but rather by logic or even, my God!, by moral ideas such as "fairness".

Back to the "sale" vs "rent" discussion:

I see one doublethink at work here. People rationaly analyze what I am doing, apply real world comparison and conclude that it is rental by real world standards. At the same time they buy into all kindsa irrational excuses to justify calling what Linden Lab does "land sales". I am very sorry to say, but if apply the same standards to Linden Lab that some people here try to apply to me, then Linden Lab calling their land leases "land sales" is misleading and wrong.

What we are dealing with here is leases and the selling of leases, but in all case, not just on private island sims.

It is like Linden Lab is bottling colorized and flavored water and selling it, calling it "vine". I am buying those bottles and refill them, add some spices and call it "vine" too. People like to buy it and enjoy it, as in fact it taste like vine even though it is just flavored and colorized water.

Now some people cry foul claiming that Anshe is not selling vine but only water. They demand that I will have to label all my small refilled bottles as "water" and remove them from the shelves of all the big supermarkets, and only sell them from my own basement. They shout at top of their voices how Anshe could add poison to those bottles and that it would be misleading to call her offering "vine".

Well, I am all fine with calling my things "water" and removing it from the supermarket shelves. Under the condition that the same thing Linden Lab is selling is called "water" too and removed from the same shelves. But as long as you buy into the illusion and accept one as "vine" it is matter of fairness to accept this for the other too.

Heh heh, anshe, that's a losing battle.

LL will never let their laundry get mixed up with yours. Not only does no one really want them to, it makes zero sense from a branding / business / support perspective.

I think a better approach is to defocus linden land sales via UI changes and give more prominence to p2p rentals.

Hi Anshe

I hope you dont include me in the "rich-is-evil" brigade. I'm a succeeded-and-retired-very-early real-life entrepreneur, and I watch your progress with admiration.

But on the "name" thing I think you are getting muddled, along with tons of other people. Your philosophic arguments have much validity, but they just aren't relevant to the PRACTICAL question of what we call things.

You aren't seriously suggesting that we change the name of what we always called "land sales", are you ? Just to get two more philosophically correct names ? Of course not.

Most people seem to agree that these two things are sufficiently different to need to be called different things. If only because of the big difference in who has power over the resident. (in anonymity and accountability, for just two).

THAT is why we need a DIFFERENT NAME. Not because the philosophical arguments you put forward are necessarily wrong, or weak.

Forget what actual names we decide on, or what lies behind their wider meanings. One already has a name it is too late change. We need a name for the other.

Surely you agree these two things are sufficiently different to need to be called something different ?

If you don't, its only natural that people wonder why, and look to see if maybe you have a commercial interest in the outcome.

Apart from the commercial interest you deny, how can this naming thing possibly matter to you so much that you are willing to antagonize people over it ?

If you really are doing this for a principled love of language, I think that is neither appropriate nor expedient. In other words - your arguments may be philosophically correct, but in practice completely irrelevant, and annoying people who just want things sorted out.

I dunno, LL...

Anshe is right. It may be a losing battle, but she's right. And becaues she's right, and more people like her coming along will also be right, eventually Linden Labs and other such entities will have to reconfigure the way they do business with "land" on servers and really start to give people more rights to it than they do currently.

How can you tell that the land you "buy" in LL is not a "sale"?

Here's how. Let's say you bought 8192 m2 of prime telehub land off the auction, for $10/meter and paid LL$81,920 for it at the rate of $4/1000. The tier on it is going to be $75US for access to 8192 plus the free 512 thrown in with a premium account.

That's US $327.68 you'd be paying for that prime real estate. But if you miss one tier payment of $75, Linden Labs suspends your account. If you do not pay up within 7 days, your land is seized. They don't take your land they themselves accepted $10/LL/meter for and refund to you $252.68, they just take your land, full stop. I'm fairly new, so I may not understand something about this. It might be that they refund $1/meter to you or something when your land is seized? I don't see where it says that.

Point of fact is, you do not get a refund of $327.68. When you pay that $327.68, it's gone, it's merely like an entrance fee to then go on paying a maintenance fee after that.

That's why it is not ownership -- that and a dozen other reasons.

When I don't pay Anshe the tier, after spending, say $12000 to buy 2048 in Ansheland, she'll boot me out. She'll ask for a sell-back. She'll give me $10000 back if I don't have a buyer.

Hey, Anshe is looking more and more attractive as a land agent LOL.

It is strange, Reitsuki,
WHY is Anshe, almost alone here, so insistent on this viewpoint ? Why does it matter to her so much ? Why fight so hard to possess a name, or to take it off the rest of us ?

For those who missed it, the poll she refers to (started by herself) is at
/130/57/44117/8.html#post475923

and currently the majority has swung the other way since her posting.

And if Anshe misses her payment how many people would be homeless? Or do sim owners get different payment terms? I know its billed differently than normal accounts.

I am sure many would be, if the LL's missed their payment to their providers how many ppl would be homeless?

Actually that would be different. The data would still be on the servers. It would just be how long before LL got back online. A temporary situation. When they came back online, we would still have our land.

I know Was being funny on that one. But seriously, from what I understand if a private estate owner misses their payment they only make the land inaccessable until the payment has been made.

Ahhh good to know!