We need THREE types of Sim ? Rationale and suggestion

Thank you for saying both of those things before I got to it.

Yes. It's in the email you get when you buy the island.

Yes, the email contains the following paragraph...

Islands are now transferable by the original owner to another SL resident. The new owner will pick up the monthly payments on the same schedule that the original owner followed. The island can only be transferred as a single parcel. It will not be possible to sell subsections of the island at any time. The cost of transfer is $100.

So people subleasing island land are now upset that they might not be able to advertise something that they were told from the beginning that they should not do? I assume their rebuttle will be "well its not a sale" which will be funny because they have been argueing to call it that all this time.

Back to the issue of the falling land market (and yes, I actually have read the entire thread, so I'm not just coming into the middle of the conversation), if the islands have a fixed purchase price of US$980 and maintainance fees of US$195/month, that rather implies a lower edge to the market, doesn't it? (I.e., US$980/65536msq.) At minimum, the island owner will want to recoup that investment. And it seems to me there are a limited number of people in the world who are going to be willing to invest in an island, and after a bit, the market would also be saturated with rentable land because there are also not an infinite number of people who want SL land at all. If enough mainland starts to sit at auction, perhaps LL should reduce the amount of new mainland sims they release. I expect they're watching this closely.

I would suggest that fairly soon anyone who expects to get much more than about US0.015 per msq (or about L$3.7/msq) on average will be kidding themselves, though. People will pay a bit more for waterfront or other features, and a bit less for flat land, perhaps, but the best way to treat land as an investment will probably lie in developing it -- adding interesting landscaping features, builds, government systems, etc. -- as Anshe and others are already doing.

Then again, that logic depends on a truly unlimited potential for "grid" expansion, and I'm not actually convinced the current system is scalable enough for that. But if we hit the upper boundary of what the grid system can support, prices will be falling for other reasons.

neko

If there is an unlimited supply of $980 sims that can be re-sold, then that creates an artificial floor on the value of land as you say.

Free markets always have cycles, because speculators acting independently evaluate the same set of facts and often make similar decisions. Thus, peridically you get a glut or a shortage because too many do the same thing all at once. Either direction.

I agree with the premise of this thread: land that can be re-sold should enter the market through the auction, so that Linden can (a) control and (b) evaluate the land supply. (If auction prices are high, land is in demand. If auction prices are low, land is not in demand.) And I agree that $980 sims should be available to people who want one or more whole sims for "projects". The solution is to have two classes of private sim: One class that can be re-sold and can only be obtained at auction, and another class that cannot be resold and can be had for $980.

A further consideration is that when there is a glut of land (which must periodically happen, becuase all markets have cycles), some private sim owners with low occupancy rates are likely to throw in the towel. What happens to the poor sharecroppers when that happens?

There is more at stake than the price of land.

Buster

Are people suggesting putting a halt (or slow down) to new mainland sims to help keep island subleasing profitable while at the same time these new subleasable islands devalue mainland plots? If people are allowed to buy new island sims and sublease them, then LLs should continue opening new mainland sims. Lets all devalue together.

Reitsuki,

Here are your nasty comments, plural, yes.

It's good to get feedback on your tone and output, hmmm?



"Not anything magical -- the usual condescending putdown -- although these sims are dramatic and breathtaking and Anshe and co. went to a great deal of trouble to terraform them and make them nice. They *are* magical as much as anything can be said to be so on this fake world.

When you say "other people" did the hard work -- well, and you point being....???
I happen to know some of those hard people, not very well, but they do good work and if Anshe pays them and helps sponsor their work, your point again is...??? If the work of making them beautiful comes about because of tenants and buyers, and not Anshe and her company...again, WHAT is your point?

As blaze pointed out, the whole point is not to have some tight-knit little guild going on quests together and levelling up (skills in building and design in the apprenticing network) and killing dragons (Prok) and beating bosses (sucking up to Lindens), the point is for people who just want a second life to live in to have a nice place, and they don't even know each other.

Finally, you have to put in the kicker: they weren't the first. Oh? Well where are dunes quite like that, which you can rent or buy on a gradiated tier scheme? It sure is the first of its kind because the program didn't exist before. Their charm isn't just in their look, but in the whole package.

Honestly, don't you see how nasty you can get? With the faint barb, the wry curled lip...it really needs to be called.

Buster,

Having the 2 classes is an interesting idea and takes care of the frenzy against Anshe's idea of auctioning the very same thing she just got for $13,000 LOL -- to avoid it appearing that she wants the straight buy and wants to make everyone else buy on the auction and inflated prices, or after-auction at even worse marked-up prices.

It's a good idea if it accommodates the market of people who want to resell not just whole islands (some are going to be in the rendering business and resell busted island projects that bail out) but who want to sell pieces of islands. If they either make the pieces really able to be chunked off (unlikely) or they find the right phrase to keep all the Nervous Nellies away from the gates, then perhaps that second class of island would work. But they didn't.




It isn't abuse to use something that has been implied as available to you when a new version of the game came out with a new capacity, i.e. the deeding. So stop trying to slur the people doing this by using loaded terms like "abuse".

Sounds to me like you had your sweet little area of the market and you resent it having more access now.

The private island rentals you discuss were for a "higher class" of people in SL -- the higher-level elite, the ones who are wealthy designers, scripters, animators, builders, whatever, the ones with in-world Lindens and out-world dollars to burn on stuff like this.

It was once explained to me by a baron why I was hated so much at first even before forums fights was because I made a residential community on the open market with plots sold right over to people, just by doing it, and that upset the notion everyone likes to whip up that the mainland is crap, the mainland is bad builds and griefes, and the Smart People either buy their own islands or go rent islands from the FIC.

Well, life in Purina has its dogpatches but in fact there are still really primo great-view areas -- I'll call them "Pristina" to differentiate them from "Purina" (with apologies to Kosovars) -- where there are rentals and sales are, and the rentals and sales of other people in this business like Wendy LeMay or Anshe Chung and even Hiro Queso.

So sure, the apple cart of your Private Collection is a bit upset if the average 1024 Joe can go get a piece double that size for the same price he'd pay in Purina. In fact, he might even get to keep Pristina nice if he buys a little bit more every week from Anshe or Blue or Bob. See how it works?

Correct me if I am wrong, didn't you help create this "problem" ?

Now you are asking LL to include your rental islands in the land formula. Asking LL to raise island prices and reduce the amount of gridded land released to compensate for the amount of land that you make available for rent. Effectually giving you free reign on the rental market.

I love what you have done w/ "Ansheland". I think it is a viable long term business. But for you to make this major investment and then ask that LL start to regulate the sale of islands immediately after you purchase 14 of them takes a set of brass balls.

I think that LL should leave the magic formula for gridded land alone. People who decide to rent parcels to people on private islands should take into consideration what the market can bear. If LL includes private island purchases in their formula, they might as well stop adding gridded land, as you and I can just buy islands at the rate that they would normally introduce grid land.

Ok, so let's say I by ten sims tomorrow and then tell everyone you can move in and claim as much land you want for free, just pay me tier.

I profit and what happens to demand for mainland parcels?

Drops to zero.

You're absurd. Who the hell are you to point out others "nastiness"? "Curled lip"? My word, you sure like to take creative licence. Called? You mean like when people call you for your incessant, paranoid barbs? The difference being, of course, that when you are the one being called, you play the victim. You are transparent, hopefully you will see that before you're too much older. Bah. Why should I care? Hate consumes itself eventually anyway.

-He was saying that it didn't get to where it is without hard work, hardly a put down.

-He was saying indirectly that they have a fairly high level of quality, but are not alone in that fact, again, hardly a put down.

One gets the feeling you could find fault with someone for saying that the sky is blue.

Hold onto that straw! Amen brother!

I don't know what other people are suggesting, but what I suggested was that island subleasing will probably lower demand for new mainland. Regardless of what that does to the value of privately held land, if LL allows island subleasing (and they certainly seem to be indicating that they do allow it), then if LL continues to release new mainland at the rate they have previously, but people show a preference for subleasing a developed community, LL will end up holding the bag on a bunch of mostly empty sims, once the market floor is reached. I doubt they want to do that. I think they're going to have to take private islands with leasable space into account in their new land formula.

Suppose the ultimate LL goal is for private individuals like Anshe and Schwan to be the primary investors in sims, not LL? That would lower LL's risk, and possibly their operational costs, as the island owners will need to provide customer support (e.g. anti-griefing support), rather than LL. That leaves LL free to put more of their investment into better tools and infrastructure to stay ahead of the market, and seems in keeping with their generally "customer-owned" philosophy.

I have no inside information on this -- I could very easily be wrong. But I could certainly see an advantage to LL to encouraging more private sim development over mainland expansion.

neko

Disclaimer -- All I own is a 1024msq plot, half of which is my original "first land." I'm also part of a small group renting a bit of island land for experimental purposes. I have very little stake in the argument either way.

I'd say the usual 'pot calling the kettle black', except...



That everything following it is so comicly wrong it would actually imply worse of me than was true.

It's not worth my time to do meticulous quote-insertion here... Besides, Kismet said it better. So I'll just quote him:



As for "They weren't the first". I stand by that. I didn't say "They aren't the first desert sims". I said they aren't the first well-done community build by people who hardly know each other.

Read what I said, not what you wish I had said because it would let you villify me more.

Thank you.

Other than that, I'm done responding to you for a while, Prok. I took you off ignore because you were starting to calm down and actually discuss things. But I find you are still absolutely unable to justify one position without attacking the oposition with rabid, paranoid claims that are based on no existing reality known to man.

Read the rest of Kismet's post. He/she said it far better than I care to bother.

LL wont end up "holding the bag". If they have someone leave a private sim(s), they can simply roll it into the mix of mainland sims. I wont go over the reasons people like these new sim deals, you should know them by now. But the bottom line is LL needs to re-evaluate the situation and take a stance. Currently based on LLs own documentation that is sent to island owners, you are NOT supposed to resell plots of island land, only the whole thing. LL needs to be clear to mainland residents about the future of these types of sims given their impact on the mainland.

Except you can't stop people from reselling the land. You can just make it a little more awkward. The djinni is out of the bottle, you can't cram him back in that easily.

Nor should you.

Actually LL could stop you if they choose to. (assuming you are talking about people reselling plots of land on an island/private sims)

Except in the latest patch of 1.6 they made it possible to do this "deeding" which enables tenants or owners or lessees however you decide to call them to do the things that only individual property owners and group officers can do on the mainland.

If you bought a sim today, would you or would you not get an email saying you that you can not resell plots of land, only the entire thing? My comments were on their documentation not whats possible in the GUI.

No they couldn't.

So LL couldnt turn off what they recently turned on? And I mean in the code.

You said they weren't magical.

*Shrugs*. That's a BIG insult.

You didn't make it clear about "others' work" -- it could easily be read as a negative precisely because you said it wasn't magical -- always an insult in a world that prides itself being magical.

Your tone speaks for itself without parsing the words.

Read what your said, don't dance around it, and read what I said, and don't try to feed me your words differently to prove I'm the villain, when it is you who said the first nasty tone.

Um, gee, that's really manipulative behaviour, thinking you're going to induce results like Pavlov's dog.

Um, I"ve been noticing how much quieter and nicer the forums are and it's not because I'm not posting -- I'm posting the same old way I always did.

It's because the Shunners aren't posting all their rapid, mad, junk-yard dog stuff so I don't have to fend it off.

There's nothing I said that was rabid or paranoid.

You said they're weren't magical.

And this is the Magic Kingdom. Words and tone manner. You do not rule this world.

I may have misunderstood you.
Yes, they could turn off the code that allows deeding of private island plots.
But the rental of these plots will continue regardless of that.

Nor are my Prada shoes. They are still high quality.

In Wally World perhaps. Hey! Are you aunt Edna's alt?

Nor do you, Emperor with no clothes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva
You said they weren't magical.

Nor are my Prada shoes. They are still high quality.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva
*Shrugs*. That's a BIG insult.

In Wally World perhaps. Hey! Are you aunt Edna's alt?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokofy Neva
And this is the Magic Kingdom. Words and tone manner. You do not rule this world.

Nor do you, Emperor with no clothes.

I think we can safely conclude I won this round if the best you can reach for is your Prada shoes and Aunt Edna