Ginko Financial

Please explain why it gets harder. The reason I see is that people are being paid "interest" out of their own capital. They could do that themselves, except that they would see how ridiculous it is. That's Ponzi.

Give us one good, honest reason why it gets harder, why you cannot make the same return tomorrow that you made today. What's changing ?

I am beginning to see why governments criminalize these schemes, ignoring the "adults have the right to take such risks as they choose" argument. They have learned from bitter experience that people are lemmings, absolutely determined to get over that cliff edge.

Read up on how a whole COUNTRY was taken for a ride. ALBANIA. People, government, the lot. Otherwise intelligent people. This stuff is ludicrously seductive and addictive. Like crack cocaine. Hence the illegality.

You really do have the right, people , to ask Ginko to prove their legitimacy. You really do, despite anything in the wording of their offer. If you don't insist, you may be unwitting collaborators in serious crime, and not just against you. God knows what you are funding.

In fact, I'll go further. I don't just think you have a right. I think you have a DUTY.

Think on it. WHAT MIGHT YOU BE FUNDING ?

Please, if you haven't done so, Read Desmonds superb post
/130/7e/71981/14.html#post752856

Do you begin to see why Anshe and the rest of us are so concerned ?

Don't think of "accusations", think of "demands for reassurance".

Its not the same. The latter is your right and duty.

And please forget about Anshe and her possible motivations, malign or otherwise. It really doesn't matter for now. It's simply not relevant. We have to be sure we are not funding South American criminals, even if we ourselves don't care if we lose the money. Since the money is being lent, not earned, it morally remains ours, so such criminality really would be our responsibility.

Exactly what the American people have been asking our government for years, and they keep side stepping the answer. We all pay taxes but we never question what it goes for. We assume civil defense and necessary services, but I don't want my tax money funding an illegal war overseas. Alas, I can't stop it. Why? Because there are a group of people who control that money in such a way that they don't have to account for it. Oh yes, the government should tell us how much they spend and where, but isn't it odd that after the budget gets approved, emergency funding issues arise and so they have to move funds.

Ginko is a business entity. It has created an investment instrument that is high risk, and high yield. As the RL market that it is in saturates, the return on the investment may decline. Also true of the stock market on an IPO. During IPO's, the company value surges high, then can decrease overtime even if the company is highly respected. Investors presume that the company business is as advertised and that the company will be perfoming a valuable service or function.

However, that doesn't stop companies for being indicted for payoffs to try to help their business succeed. A minor illegality, but still illegal. Some of those companies fund ridiculous things to try to get their business into foreign countries. Overseas companies fund for private security services who may, in the course of business, end up killing people to "protect" the company. Since you are an investor in the firm, are you funding murder? Quite possibly.

And we need not go into the whole Walmart thing about exploiting workers overseas while the stockholder sits back and enjoys profits.

Point is, at NO time when you hand funds to someone else, do you know with certainty what they will do with them. Not the government, not companies, not your bank, not family, and not friends. You hand money out daily for all sorts of services and items, and that money goes all over. Investors are more savvy and try to look deeper than just handing money over, but even they only see what the company wants to be public. You can't assume that because someone isn't transparent, that they might be funding something bad.

Just a thought. **sorry to wander so badly, so much to say and trying to be concise**

You are right, Nicholas, his numbers are all garbage, for the nth time. But why are you posting so trivially ? Do you see nothing more significant you could be saying to us, since you are here ? Honestly - each time you do this you make me doubt you more. Are the concerns being expressed here no more than a joke to you ?

Wouldn't Ginko always function pretty well as long as there wasn't a mass hysteria created to cause everyone to try and pull out all at once?

I wonder what would happen to the U.S. economy if every single person in the entire country went down to their local bank and wanted to withdraw all of their money, that day. Sure, the first few hundred or thousand might get their money, but eventually even the banks would run out of money. Total collapse of the U.S. economy.

SATURATES ? With a mere US$80K or so ? Come on, Shadow....

And forget stock market values here, all sorts of things happen to them. We are talking about the actual day-to-day return from investments made. Very different, and far more concrete and real. If it is real, and meeting the interest obligations one day, why would it go down the next ?

Certainly not "saturation" with such a tiny investment.

If I were running a Ponzi scheme, I would have a very simple criterion for how far to go. Never allow the money I am stealing to reduce, except perhaps briefly for an obviously temporary reason.

Once this week's money received is less than that paid out, I first try dropping the interest rate, and applying a bit more "advertising", to see if I can get positive again. If this works, I go on.

Once it doesn't, if it looks likely to continue that way, then I shut up shop and disappear.

To me this is a good possible explanation of the interest drops we see. Probing towards the cut-off point.

Once again, this is not a vendetta, nor an accusation. Given adequate reassurance, I'll personally bless Ginko, give them a kiss, and stick in some investment myself. Their choice.

With the holiday season looming, whip up a mug of hot cocoa, pop some corn and watch It's a Wonderful Life... Seriously! Capra told the story with a happy ending...

Perhaps we could put on an SL performance? Anshe in the role of Mr. Potter? The staff of Ginko as George Bailey and Uncle Billy?

Come on kids, let's rent a barn and put on a show!

I could not have said it better than Shadow, but I am not going to say as much anymore, I will leave this up to Nicholas to respond to for the most part. All I can really say, is that people KNOW what they are getting into... there is nothing hidden about what you are getting in, and about the lack of guarantees that we offer. I would be in the same boat as everyone if Ginko shut down, though maybe not all people keep every single linden they have in Ginko as I do.

All I can say, is that I -personally- have faith in what Nicholas is doing, I read the note card I received upon arrival to that ATM when I first found it, and I understood that I could lose my money, and I understood that I have no clue what it is being used for. But that is the risk that I, and other adults have taken, and that all of us have been informed about before this post by Anshe had started. Sadly it had to happen with after GinkoTec started to expand, opening up two new islands for rent that look rather nice. As well as the other ideas we have up and coming for more direct competition with Anshe. Could be all coincidence, who knows, maybe not, maybe she is feeling threatened that Ginko is becoming a name to be known much like Anshe. Maybe it is because we have more users on our forums, than she has on hers. Only she knows right now, all I know is that her attempt to slander, and threaten us, has not worked in the least, in fact, our new users per day has gone through a new increase, even as people know all of the risks that they are getting into, and understand. And yes, she has slandered us, and threated us if all of the posts by s/he have been read.

This may be my final words here in this post, as once again, this post has brought about almost nothing new that we have not already stated in our about pages, note cards, or forums.

If you do not want to invest in Ginko, it is that simple, do not invest, the people that have, already know what they have gotten into.

But you see, Fiona, the US Government doesn't refuse to publish a budget, and it has massive captive resources, including its population. In fact it probably is technically bankrupt, but with its huge monopoly power people have nowhere else to go.

Local banks, of course, you are right. Which is why such a bank, to survive, must also convince. By a suitable level of transparency, and by regular independent professional auditing. If they fail in this they would and should go to the wall.

Ginko rejects giving any such reassurance. If it continues to do so it too risks going to the wall.

It's a natural risk associated with its "no disclosure" strategy. A risk it has chosen to take, as its investors have chosen to risk losing their money.

Ginko chooses "no disclosure". It invites, and receives, public criticism and warnings to investors. Why not ? Isn't that exactly what should happen ? A natural and predictable consequence of their chosen no-disclosure strategy ?

For heavens sake. Thats why other organisations disclose. To prevent being pulled down by doubts and suspicions that something nasty is hidden - whether it is or not.

Why all the complaining ? We choose. They choose. Each must accept the risks and consequences of their strategies, like big boys and girls.

Ginko chooses non-disclosure. They get suspicion and warnings against them, a predictable consequence, which could indeed destroy even a valid honest business. Their choice.

In RL I'm pretty sure they'd have had the police asking for reassurance by now, and the authorities forcing disclosure. Anybody dispute that ?

Got a wild idea for you then. Consider a Junior Achievement company. They sell imaginary stock worth exactly $ 1 to the public. You can only own one share, and you have no guarantee of performance. The young person at your door tells you about this wonderful opportunity they have selling jars of shredded money. You nod your head, laugh a little on the inside, and hand them $ 1. A few months later, you are surprised to get a check in the mail for $ 37.50 from JA's local office.

Do you wonder where the shredded money came from? Did you ever ask the young person about it? Did it freak you out that you just made a HUGE return on your investment? **This actually happened by the way. And somehow, I don't think there would be a huge market for jars of shredded cash. **

Another idea for you is this. Consider day trading stocks. Someone placing careful buy and sell orders can make profits that are very erratic. You create a small pool of funds of your own, then ask for investments. You then play that in the market, and make a decent hit. You begin paying back interest, knowing you have a cushion period. The more investment funds you get, the more market room you have. Not a ponzi scheme, just a roll of the dice investment.

Heh, for all I know he is using it to pay for really hot male porn stars to give him personal lap dances. Wait... in that case, I want to see the investments!!!

To all those who are banging on about Ginko and the impossibility of the interest rate etc, just stop and think. It is adults who are putting their money into Ginko. Are you suggesting they are mentally deficient in some way?

I personally have not invested in Ginko but if people wish to, that is entirely their own business.

Alexa

What ? Normally one quotes a previous post to respond in some way. ie discuss whether there is an honest reason for a planned, projected fall in interest, if the interest is indeed paid from, and determined by, real investments. Can you see a possible honest reason, Shadow? Not happening by accident, note, but preplanned. Where did the initial higher payments come from ? Surely from peoples own capital ? Where else ?

You incentivize people to invest by taking some of their own money, lent to you to invest, and giving it back, calling it "interest". Pretending you made it by wise investment ? So you are now unable to pay them back ? If so, what do you think that your activities would be called ? What would it be under the law ?

Do you see any other explanation, Shadow? Do you think it possible Ginko might be doing this ? Even just a little bit, to get things going ?

That's not how RL law throughout the western world looks at it, Alexa. One can wonder why not.

But put that aside, and agree we live in anarchy. Do you not agree that we have the right to call out warnings because of this non-disclosure ? And that Ginko have chosen to bring these warnings on themselves , and have no right to be defended from them ?

And if these warnings risk damaging confidence, and maybe even pulling an honest company down, it is on their own heads ? That they had the remedy of disclosure and reassurance in their hands.

Even if their is some honest reason for non-disclosure (hard to imagine), then it is still their fault if it drives them under. Surely in a free society a business model for a bank which is reliant for survival on non-disclosure is simply non-viable. Such a business model is surely fatally flawed ? If the call for disclosure can destroy it. For surely sooner or later that call must fairly be made.

For a bank, Alexa. Holding peoples money in trust for them, and doing things with it which might be illegal, while it still belongs to them. Its not like a grocery store.

As I said, they may be tapping a pool of their own funds that they had already, using it as a cushion pending future income. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a number of casinos in game and were funding it from the income off those.

To be honest, I used to be a lot more idealistic and care about issues like these. I would stomp to the front of an issue and demand information much like you and even Anshe have. But I've grown world weary of all that. Much like the voters in elections now, it seems like it doesn't matter what happens. Yes, when Ginko crashes it will hurt a number of people. And those people will cry and be upset. But they were informed that it was high risk. You don't gamble with what you cannot afford to lose. But there are similar risks all over SL. Anshe could pass on and just leave all her clients hanging. Linden Labs could file for bankruptcy and just cut the world off. People lose items from inventory that they have spend thousands of L$ on at times.

It's just another investment. Like everything else. You win some. You lose some. That's it. No delusions on anyone's part now.

OK, Shadow. But do you agree that criticisms and warning here are fair and to be expected? And if these warnings push the company under it is ultimately Ginko's own fault? No complaining valid? A risk they chose to take by not disclosing ?

There weren't just "warnings" from Anshe, Ellie. She said in so many words that she would do anything to destroy Ginko, even spend millions of dollars. Warning, yes... announce a Vendetta against an organization that's taking money away from your bottom line... uh, yeah, right. Perfectly acceptable.

So... why would a business that can comfortably hold onto over $L 2 million have any need to pay 66% annually for more funds?


A RL triad loan shark doesn't charge victims so much, for god's sake.

There is only one possible reason for this.

Here is the problem I see. If a new potential competitor enters a marketplace, it is not unusual for the existing companies to try various means of legal sabotage to derail them. If the warning had come from someone OTHER than Anshe, I doubt any of this would have been made into such a big deal. The inherent problem is this. Anshe demands to know, in the general public's interest of course, what Nicholas is doing with the funds. Nicholas believes he has a competitive advantage by not revealing it. Anshe COULD be using this as a means to not only cause Ginko to lose investors, but also to pry out what he is doing so she can use the same technique herself. Shrewd businesswoman. Or she COULD be just offering the information as a warning to others. Warning the public is different than threatening the other company however, and I feel like she went way over the line.

If I had a cool way to make money in RL by getting investments, I sure as hell wouldn't tell anyone else in game either. Not until I had either made all the money I could from it, or had a way to block my opponents from using the info. Predatory? Definately. But in business you can't afford to lose an opportunity.

SL's entire economy is based on the Ponzi scheme. What do you think will happen when the user base stops growing?

Not only legal sabotage, but sabotage that is against the terms of service of secondlife, this post has been reported by many people as long as 2 days ago, and the fact she can post personal information gathered in a private chat (or a summary of a chatlog or actual line of a chatlog) speaks volumes to me, i made a mistake of doing this a while ago and recieved an informal warning and had the thread closed in a day for something far less trivial than this so just proves what kind treatment you get when you pay them more tier.

Well, yes, Schwanson, I can see some partial force in that argument, which I might be happy to discuss later when I've thought it over. But does this mean that you see no reason to warn people from participating, even though Ginko might be a real full blown Ponzi with no intent but to defraud ? It is possible, and the indications are pretty strong.

You think the "warners" are out of order (forgetting Anshe, her threats and her possible malign motivation)? The other "warners" here ? Is what we are doing ok, and something Ginko have to accept as a consequence of their own choices?

Frankly, I see that as the question now. Is it fair to warn ? Is it out of order for Ginko to complain at straight warnings, threats aside ?

Haha I have often thought along those lines.

I think I may be guilty of not noticing that, Nathan. All I remember was something about him telling her South American banks won't lend at rates down to our levels. Something he repeated here shortly after. Maybe a bit more personalized, but hardly real personal information. Was there something significantly more than that ?

Anyway, I don't think persons embodying big trust-demanding organisations in SL are entitled to the same TOS protection as others. I definitely include both AnsheCorp and Ginko in this category, and have strongly argued this here in the past against Anshe. I think Jeska may be beginning to agree.

It is unfortunate that the "whistle-blower" here was Anshe. It has colored many peoples responses I think. But putting her aside, and looking only at the issues, I think there is very genuine reason for concern about Ginko. It is getting big enough to hurt us all, and by its own admission it has already got L$16M (US$64000) of our money out of our reach, and the reach of any law as we know it.

Should we watch it (say) double twice more, and remain silent ? Really ?

Ginko has reduced their daily interest rate to 0.14%

And the website says it is going to be reduced again soon. Anybody care to explain the economic/psychologic rational behind this? It doesn't look like a good timing to me when such a heated discussion happening here.

Its posted in her initial post, although he did reply later and clear it up to other people as to why it was true due to the financing available in the country in which he lives, as he has also tried to answer many other questions asked by people, the website is quite clear in that it is a high risk investment, and that there are no guarantees, either by themselves or any government bodies, that the money is taken out of sl and put into profitable business ventures.

As far as any real life information goes, the tos states that you cant post any rl information that isnt contained within someones first life profile