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Help stop the L$ from dropping, stop premium account allowances!

Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
03-09-2006 07:56
From: ReserveBank Division
Siggy/Fade:


Yes, Money leaves the system through the various sinks in the game.
What you fail to comprehend is that more money is added to the system
than leaves the system. Creating positive growth in the weekly money
supply. This increasing supply creates supply side demand pressure
on the LindenX. Causing the Linden/US Dollar valuation to decline.

Tell me where I lost you? Assuming you can comprehend english,
economics, and basic math skills.


So - provide me with how much is going in and going out?

And if you're after a 'closed economy' where is your crusade vs the classifieds system, upload charges et al.

I maintain you are arguing from one side to better yourself.

and the 'I'm smart so it's right' argument doesn't hold. (By virtue simply of you not being)

You can't use 'math skills' on data you don't have.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
03-09-2006 08:04
From: Siggy Romulus


You can't use 'math skills' on data you don't have.




A good concept. Then I suppose you have no arguement to
my proposals since you can't counter them with anything.
I've done my research, do your own. I'm surely not going to
hand over hours of data I've collected for free..

Now if you wish to pay me some money, I'll be more then
eager to sell you some information.

You can pay me here: http://2327104.e-gold.com

The cost will be 2/Troy Ounces of Gold.


Otherwise, do your own homework.
_____________________
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
03-09-2006 08:06
except you don't have the data you need Alby...

like how much is taken in sinks..hoiw many of what accounts..how many active..

You don't have the research you need. Give it up.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
03-09-2006 08:08
From: Jonas Pierterson
except you don't have the data you need Alby...

like how much is taken in sinks..hoiw many of what accounts..how many active..

You don't have the research you need. Give it up.





Sorry Jonas, but you are mistaken. I have plenty of data.
I'm sorry you don't have anything to validate your ignorant
postings of actually paying for your stipends...
_____________________
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
03-09-2006 08:11
From: ReserveBank Division
A good concept. Then I suppose you have no arguement to
my proposals since you can't counter them with anything.
I've done my research, do your own. I'm surely not going to
hand over hours of data I've collected for free..

Now if you wish to pay me some money, I'll be more then
eager to sell you some information.

You can pay me here: http://2327104.e-gold.com

The cost will be 2/Troy Ounces of Gold.


Otherwise, do your own homework.


ahh so its the old 'I don't have data and I'm not going to show it' argument - even though of course I've shown several times gaping holes in your 'black tuesday' arguments - your 'linden is declining' arguments by simply pointing to the lindex page.

So far you have shown NOTHING to support your claims - and if this is any indication - you don't have anything to show.

See here is the teller old chum - there is no way to see how many basic and premium accounts exist - no way to tell how many accounts cancelled nor how much money they had when they did - no way to tell how much was spent on uploads - and the only way to do the classifieds would be to add them up every day from find. Which I doubt you'd do.

So it's a matter of simply it not existing. I've done my homework - and thus far it shows you really have no idea what you're talking about.

So once again it's the Yellowknife sidestep with an unwitty comment :)

Once again Alby - the onus is on you to prove your point - as you are the one making it - if you can't then we have no choice but to beleive that its dreamt up in that little head of yours as a fast way to make a buck.

Occams razor stands on my side of that line.
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
03-09-2006 08:13
I have.. look at this:

Premium:

Signup bonus: 1250 L

Allowance (my stipend): 500/week

Cost:

Monthly:
$9.95/mo
Quarterly:
$22.50 ($7.50/mo)
Annual:
$72.00 ($6.00/mo)

Theres the proof, theres the data. I pay premium and they provide a weekly pay. Now YOU still don't have Linden labds list of sinks and such..so no, you lack data
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
03-09-2006 08:16
From: ReserveBank Division
Siggy/Fade:


Yes, Money leaves the system through the various sinks in the game.
What you fail to comprehend is that more money is added to the system
than leaves the system. Creating positive growth in the weekly money
supply. This increasing supply creates supply side demand pressure
on the LindenX. Causing the Linden/US Dollar valuation to decline.

Tell me where I lost you? Assuming you can comprehend english,
economics, and basic math skills.


Speaking for myself, there's no failure of comprehension of your argument. I even acknowledge it as a possibility. However, you have no measure of the rate at which the money supply is growing, so you can't say how much of an impact it is having. You can't even categorically say it is growing(although I believe it would be), without all the facts and figures (and note: total $L for sale is not the same as total money supply, all though they may have a relationship). How many accounts are active? How many basics? How many premiums? How much does go out in sinks?
You also don't acknowledge or discuss other possible causes and relationships.
Increasing money supply is only one variable in the equation.
To re-iterate: at no point have you 'lost me', I'm simply asking you to provide a full argument, and to consider more than one variable.
ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
03-09-2006 08:20
From: Siggy Romulus
ahh so its the old 'I don't have data and I'm not going to show it' argument - even though of course I've shown several times gaping holes in your 'black tuesday' arguments - your 'linden is declining' arguments by simply pointing to the lindex page.

So far you have shown NOTHING to support your claims - and if this is any indication - you don't have anything to show.

See here is the teller old chum - there is no way to see how many basic and premium accounts exist - no way to tell how many accounts cancelled nor how much money they had when they did - no way to tell how much was spent on uploads - and the only way to do the classifieds would be to add them up every day from find. Which I doubt you'd do.

So it's a matter of simply it not existing. I've done my homework - and thus far it shows you really have no idea what you're talking about.

So once again it's the Yellowknife sidestep with an unwitty comment :)

Once again Alby - the onus is on you to prove your point - as you are the one making it - if you can't then we have no choice but to beleive that its dreamt up in that little head of yours as a fast way to make a buck.

Occams razor stands on my side of that line.




I have hundreds of postings with plenty of support for my
claims. I believe you have been too lazy to read it, acknowledge it,
and accept it, since it would show that you are clearly on the
wrong side of the issue.

Sorry to disappoint you, but once again, your lack of understanding
has blinded you to the obvious.
_____________________
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
03-09-2006 08:24
From: ReserveBank Division
I have hundreds of postings with plenty of support for my
claims.


Demonstrating that the $L is on a downward trend doesn't prove the stipend is responsible.
You can't offer the effect as proof of the cause.
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
03-09-2006 08:25
From: ReserveBank Division
Siggy/Fade:


Yes, Money leaves the system through the various sinks in the game.
What you fail to comprehend is that more money is added to the system
than leaves the system. Creating positive growth in the weekly money
supply. This increasing supply creates supply side demand pressure
on the LindenX. Causing the Linden/US Dollar valuation to decline.

Tell me where I lost you? Assuming you can comprehend english,
economics, and basic math skills.


You are just trying to make a quick profit and dont care at all about the other residents. Stop your crying and get on with your life!
ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
03-09-2006 08:27
From: Ranma Tardis
You are just trying to make a quick profit and dont care at all about the other residents. Stop your crying and get on with your life!




Believe me, there is no profit for me to make. I care, otherwise
I would be wasting my time with the likes of folks such as Jonas,
Fade, and Siggy...
_____________________
Jonas Pierterson
Dark Harlequin
Join date: 27 Dec 2005
Posts: 3,660
03-09-2006 08:29
He cares..about his own pocket. Unless youre in it he doesn't care about you.
_____________________
Good freebies here and here

I must protest. I am not a merry man! - Warf, ST: TNG, episode: Qpid

You killed my father. Prepare to die. - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride

You killed My father. Your a-- is mine! - Hellboy
ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
03-09-2006 08:34
From: Fade Languish
Speaking for myself, there's no failure of comprehension of your argument. I even acknowledge it as a possibility. However, you have no measure of the rate at which the money supply is growing, so you can't say how much of an impact it is having. You can't even categorically say it is growing(although I believe it would be), without all the facts and figures (and note: total $L for sale is not the same as total money supply, all though they may have a relationship). How many accounts are active? How many basics? How many premiums? How much does go out in sinks?
You also don't acknowledge or discuss other possible causes and relationships.
Increasing money supply is only one variable in the equation.
To re-iterate: at no point have you 'lost me', I'm simply asking you to provide a full argument, and to consider more than one variable.




If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. If you would like
the data that I've collected on my own, from various sources
inside and outside of Second Life, I'll be more than happen to
share that information with you.

The cost is 2 Ounces of Gold: http://2327104.e-gold.com

Otherwise, you can contact Linden Labs yourself....
I on the other hand have been paying people inside their
company with access to the data. You'd be amazed at
what people will do when they need a $1000 bonus...
Nothing like throwing a few dollars at under paid employees
for useful corporate data. :) Like I said, if you want to pay
to see what the Wizard is doing, you'll have all the goodies...
_____________________
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
03-09-2006 08:39
From: ReserveBank Division
If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. If you would like
the data that I've collected on my own, from various sources
inside and outside of Second Life, I'll be more than happen to
share that information with you.

The cost is 2 Ounces of Gold: http://2327104.e-gold.com

Otherwise, you can contact Linden Labs yourself....
I on the other hand have been paying people inside their
company with access to the data. You'd be amazed at
what people will do when they need a $1000 bonus...
Nothing like throwing a few dollars at under paid employees
for useful corporate data. :) Like I said, if you want to pay
to what the Wizard is doing, you'll have all the goodies...


And I heard it each time. I'm just not prepared to take the word of an alt when he says he has the proof, but won't show it. Why should I pay you to back up your own argument? The onus of proof is on you.
ReserveBank Division
Senior Member
Join date: 16 Jan 2006
Posts: 1,408
03-09-2006 08:45
From: Fade Languish
And I heard it each time. I'm just not prepared to take the word of an alt when he says he has the proof, but won't show it. Why should I pay you to back up your own argument? The onus of proof is on you.




No loss to me... Keep your money, I'll keep my data.

Hmmm, there is the use of that word (onus) again. Seems to
be Siggy's favor word of the day. I think I've established a
link between Siggy and Fade.. The same people harping the
same tune and using the same phases.

Sure must be tough to have multiple personalities. Ohh well,
that explains your inability to comprehend reason.
_____________________
Fade Languish
I just build stuff...
Join date: 20 Oct 2005
Posts: 1,760
03-09-2006 08:54
From: ReserveBank Division
No loss to me... Keep your money, I'll keep my data.

Hmmm, there is the use of that word (onus) again. Seems to
be Siggy's favor word of the day. I think I've established a
link between Siggy and Fade.. The same people harping the
same tune and using the same phases.

Sure must be tough to have multiple personalities. Ohh well,
that explains your inability to comprehend reason.


No... I've never met Siggy, I have no alts, and I am not an alt :P
Perhaps we just see the same glaring holes in your argument?
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
03-09-2006 09:09
From: ReserveBank Division
If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. If you would like
the data that I've collected on my own, from various sources
inside and outside of Second Life, I'll be more than happen to
share that information with you.

The cost is 2 Ounces of Gold.
RBD: YOU are the one who is trying to convince people that a change is needed. It's YOUR job to make the case and if that requires making more data available it's YOUR responsibility to do so. If you can't, then you're no more a Wizard than any other bunco artist behind a curtain.
Ranma Tardis
沖縄弛緩の明確で青い水
Join date: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,415
03-09-2006 09:32
From: ReserveBank Division
A good concept. Then I suppose you have no arguement to
my proposals since you can't counter them with anything.
I've done my research, do your own. I'm surely not going to
hand over hours of data I've collected for free..

Now if you wish to pay me some money, I'll be more then
eager to sell you some information.

You can pay me here: http://2327104.e-gold.com

The cost will be 2/Troy Ounces of Gold.


Otherwise, do your own homework.


I wont give you 2 yen for your data, of a questionable nature to be sure. For the sake of any audit this data needs to come from a reliable source. You are not it!
Jackson Callisto
Registered User
Join date: 3 Mar 2006
Posts: 46
03-09-2006 09:34
From: ReserveBank Division


Otherwise, you can contact Linden Labs yourself....
I on the other hand have been paying people inside their
company with access to the data. You'd be amazed at
what people will do when they need a $1000 bonus...
Nothing like throwing a few dollars at under paid employees
for useful corporate data. :) Like I said, if you want to pay
to see what the Wizard is doing, you'll have all the goodies...


Do you believe your own BS your feeding cause anyone with half a brain would know otherwise. but since your all about facts and stuff let me discredit your comment here..

A) if you were to pay someone within a company to disclose corporate data to you.. the first thing that would be made clear is that stuff be handle discreetly. being you dont go public to where you got this infomation

B) when you get hired for any company you sign papers one being that you will not disclose any company infomation to competitors or to any 3rd party. being that you can not get any of this infomation publicly that means the infomation is private. with that said if yu paid this $1000 you would have to do it in cash and any with a hint of commen sence knows you dont send cash through the mail. if this person were to help you like that wouldnt be dumb enough to ask you for payment that would leave a paper trial. because disclosing company infomation ow matter how little could lead to termination or worse legal action

C) any company infomation can not be taking to for private and personal use. meaning that an employee cant not dl this infomation to there personal home computer. They can access this infomation from there home computer but would stll have to log into the system which at that point it would be very easy for someone to track which so call person disclosed this info. there for again the person or persons you are doing this with would again make it clear that this kind of activity stays being the 2 of you. (meaning you do not go blow up on public forums that you have recieved this info..

D) for someone who can easy toss $1000 for infomation concerning a virtual world i dont understand why you are making a big deal over what you can excange your lindens for..


furthermore i wouldnt be surprised if you post will eventually probably lead to either deletion of your post or the lock of this thread basicly because you just publcly stated there are "dirty" employees within LL. Also there already been accusation and assumptions about diffrent linden and there creditablity and favortisum.. If your post would to ring true by any means you would have just put it all out there.. which i cant see LL being to keen on..

with that all said i think your full of s**t.. but hey you may be telling the truth cause yes company deal with this sort of shit everyday someone leaking withheld infomation
Jana Fleming
SL Resident
Join date: 25 Oct 2004
Posts: 319
03-09-2006 12:55
From: ReserveBank Division

Otherwise, you can contact Linden Labs yourself....
I on the other hand have been paying people inside their
company with access to the data. You'd be amazed at
what people will do when they need a $1000 bonus...
Nothing like throwing a few dollars at under paid employees
for useful corporate data. :) Like I said, if you want to pay
to see what the Wizard is doing, you'll have all the goodies...


You are absolutely right Christopher, it is a constructive thread. However I find this particular post offensive. If I did close it, it would only be closed for Linden review who could then decide to edit/delete that particular post, have the poster edit their own post, or leave it be. In any event, I would fully expect the thread to be reopened.

I'm just not sure if a "personal" attack on LL is against TOS. :))
Nikko Tokugawa
Registered User
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 6
03-09-2006 14:16
From: Merlyn Bailly
Because most of the premium members contribute to the system/world not only by paying their monthly membership fee, but aslo buy land and create/build CONTENT -- they are content producers, not just CONSUMERS and tourists.

And the value of the Linden drops due to too many Lindens being injected into the system, so all the supposedly economic "experts" who are screaming about the fall in the value of the Linden are the same idiots who dump their $500L weekly stipend into Lindex AND THEY ARE THEMSELVES DRIVING THE VALUE OF THE LINDEN DOWN.



I beg your Pardon?! There are basic members out there that build "CONTENT", so get of your high horse.
And from my experiences I would say over half the Basic Members I've met out there are just Alts of Premium members. And I would bet a fair share have alt-basics just to transfer the measely L$50 to their Premium Account!
Carmilla Mirabeau
~Pixel Hoe~
Join date: 21 Aug 2005
Posts: 121
Pfft
03-09-2006 15:01
Yanno...this is what forums are for...peoples opinions..

what its not for is to be nasty and throw name throwing around.

Please be nice to your neighbors k??

Its not that hard.
Quarrel Kukulcan
Registered User
Join date: 21 Feb 2006
Posts: 48
03-09-2006 17:19
From: Pham Neutra
From: someone
How much money enters the economy because of these accounts?

15,000 * 500 L$/week = 7,500,000 L$ per week in Premium Account stipends.
135,000 * 50 L$/week = 6,750,000 L$ per week in Basic Account stipends.

Basic accounts only get a stipend if they log in at least once a week. One more piece of information we need is how many basic accounts are not currently in regular use. I have no idea what even a reasonable rough estimate would be.
Strife Onizuka
Moonchild
Join date: 3 Mar 2004
Posts: 5,887
03-10-2006 15:23
From: Pham Neutra
While these numbers are not published officially, at least some of them can be easily deducted from publicly available data.SL currently has some 150,000 residents. No, I don't want to debate how many of them are alts. ;) The developer incentive is paid out (by definition) to 2% of the land owners in SL. In January, when the number of residents was around 100,000, DI was paid out to 140 residents. This means that 7,000 = 7% of the residents are land owners. From previous information officially published by Linden Lab we know that the overwhelming majority of Premium Accounts own land. (There is not much reason to go premium of you don't.) That means that some 7% to 10% of the residents (alts or not), are on Premium accounts. Lets assume 10% just to make calculations easier.

With a population of 150,000 this means 15,000 Premium Accounts (max).
150,000 minus 15,000 = 135,000 (or a bit more, but less than 140,000).15,000 * 500 L$/week = 7,500,000 L$ per week in Premium Account stipends.
135,000 * 50 L$/week = 6,750,000 L$ per week in Basic Account stipends.A hard one. I have rarely met a resident who earns more than 20% of his stipend in dwell. But there are some big players in the dwell game. I would be very much surprised if dwell were much than 10% of stipends on average. But maybe another forum reader has better numbers for that.Even harder. Biggest drains seem to be upload fees, classifieds and account balances of orphaned avatars. Upload fees will rarely sum up to a huge amount except for some very prolific content creators. The drain size for classifieds could be easily measured - but thats a tedious job ;) And the number of residents leaving SL for good with a positive balance is probably a trade secret.

All the numbers mentioned above have an error margin of at least 20%. But still you can safely assume that nearly the same amount of money enters the economy through Basic and Premium stipends and, taken together, this is a lot of money - some 13 - 14 Million L$ (50,000 US$) every week.
I am not sure if anyone who is making decisions about the basic parameters of the SL economy is expecting "we" to "come up with a strategy to raise the value of the $L". :)

Looking for sound economic advice in the forums seems a suicidal strategy for a business IMHO.



These numbers in no way seem right, they do not match historical data. As of september there were 80,000 users, with a 4:1 spread. These numbers were generated from a much more accurate source, rating bonus elimation. Which gauranties atleast 16 thousand premium users. Since the grid has grown since then by close to 300 sims, with something like 10% being reserved for the Land for the Landless program, creating about 4000, 512 new user land. This puts the number of premium users at a minimum of 20,000. The likely number is probably between 25,000 and 30,000 or beween 6:1 and 5:1.

or...
for every Basic 250$L -> 300$L there is 500$L Premium.
_____________________
Truth is a river that is always splitting up into arms that reunite. Islanded between the arms, the inhabitants argue for a lifetime as to which is the main river.
- Cyril Connolly

Without the political will to find common ground, the continual friction of tactic and counter tactic, only creates suspicion and hatred and vengeance, and perpetuates the cycle of violence.
- James Nachtwey
Jopsy Pendragon
Perpetual Outsider
Join date: 15 Jan 2004
Posts: 1,906
03-10-2006 17:59
From: ReserveBank Division
No loss to me... Keep your money, I'll keep my data.


RBD-

How about we keep our money... and you put your opinions with your data?

(Are you really getting $1000 (+time&effort) worth of value and entertainment out of this?)


Jopsy's SecondLife theatre presents: A Parody of 'No one in particular':

Everyone knows that well water is pulled from the ground and rain falls from the sky. Obviously, lots of springwater and rainwater dumps into the sea. Only an idiot like you would think that enough water evaporates from the oceans!

New Orleans was flooded! This is true! You can't deny it! Worse is coming! Clearly, springwater must be stopped. It is inevitable, the masses have spoken.

The great flood is coming! Doooom Dooooom! Hahahah! I laugh at you boatless fools. I'm only saying this because I'm concerned... not just because I profit from boat sales.

You can't argue with me cause I paid some unnamed environmentalist for data. Now I have a secret which proves everything. Give me money for my secret because you're stupid and gullible.

--
People that drink springwater are welfare loving socialist.


--
Some people can only see what they believe.
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