Help stop the L$ from dropping, stop premium account allowances!

Didnt Linden state that they were not producing L$ from nowhere?

Um, no. The people who build/create are the ones selling L$ on Lindex.

I invite you to consider IMVU. The value of the "IMVU credit" crashed down, and they were clear on the reason why on the forums: if you had the talent to make stuff, it was very easy to get money, if you didn't, there was no way but to buy it (as indeed there isn't - no camping chairs, nor events, nor stipend on IMVU). Result: the "sellers" had large amounts of credits and nothing to do with them but sell them, while the "buyers" wanted to spend as little real money for virtual as possible. Supply exceeded demand - you know the rest!

At the lowest level the falling L$ is caused by difficulty SL has appealing to people who don't create. If you don't create, it becomes either a matter of socialising (but you can't play "social climbing" effectively, since the highest social statuses are reserved for those who create), or playing events (most of which are L$ gambling). The fact that some basic members actually socially ostracise or insult people who pay US$ for L$ doesn't help at all (no kidding, people were actually mocking me for having bought a Premium account, "can't you earn money?", "I have a sexy av and house without paying but if you had to pay then enjoy I guess". I've even seen this on the forums (a post a while ago had "people without talent go here" followed by a link to the Lindex Buy page).

The first thing to do to stabilise the L$ should be to get rid of the apparantly popular perception that needing to buy L$ for US$ is a sign of failure.

L$ bought on Lindex are not produced from nowhere.

L$ paid for stipend are - even Premium stipend. This is why the US$ payment for Premium stipend doesn't balance the extra L$ for exchange rate purposes - the US$ leave the SL economy immediately while the L$ remain.

We must end the Stipends..................
The Tide is rising to Stipend Opposition..

its a puddle reserve

get over yourself

Im against stipends and any form of (not backed) money printing.

Feel free to reimburse my premium charges then Lee, if you want to take my stipend

I hear alot of complaining about the value of the L$ because of free accounts. Yet I don't hear anyone trying to talk others into not selling their L$ for less then X amount. It's mainly the content providers who are doing well here in SL that are selling the linden for nothing when they could easily set the sale price of their $L for more. It's the people selling L$ that are shooting themselves in the foot. We all make Sl what it is, and we control the market value for the L$, don't give away your L$ for less then what you think it's worth and then complain about it. If it's as big concern for you as it is for me then all the content providers of what ever form should get with each other and set the market price. Just my opinion

Your opinion has a lot of truth in it. In the end it is "The Tragedy of the Commons" in a certain way: most residents only interested in getting their L$ sold, fast, no matter the overall effect. I allways set our L$ for sale at the current market price or 1 L$ below. If you time it right it always gets sold over the course of one or two days. And when the L$ is falling I don't sell at all. Many others lack this little patience.

I do this not because I feel altruistic but because I am very much interested in the value of the L$. It is egoism, but a long term egoism.

But, alas, if it were just that simple. Many businesses in SL depend on L$ sales. If they do not convert L$ to US$ they can't pay LL (tier, rent for private islands etc.). Linden Lab does not accept payment in L$ for most fees and never will.

So what would you suggest to the well-meaning owner of a business faced with the alternative of either selling L$ at current market value or pumping more US$ into SL, again and again and again and again? Patience has monetary limits.

The U.S. National Debt is $8 Trillion Dollars.

The only thing backing that is the next two decades worth of IRS collections.

So, why actually bother printing new money when you can buy everything on credit?

Q: What's U.S. currency 'backed' by? Hint: "In God We Trust"

--
Static economies are dead economies.

First off, Basic accounts are free - you don't pay for the account. You may pay for things you buy or things you do in SL, but it's still a freebie account.

How does your money get to LL thru "Tony and Alliez"? They pay for their own accounts and tier. Anything you pay them, or others pay them, in excess of their membership fees and tier charges goes into their own pocket, and no matter how much you pay them, it does not increase how much you pay LL, which is still NOTHING, apart from buying Lindens from Lindex.

Actually, I was messed over by two successive landlords, so I upgraded and bought my own land. I then had one neighbor attempt to mess me over after I bought my land, and he and his friends/goons who showed up the next two days did not fare well in the attempt. I don't play nice with bullies. They were AR'd, banned from my land, and muted. All three are _still_ banned from my land and muted.

And I BUILT my shop/gallery, dimwit. The only thing included in the build that I did NOT create was the water in the front pool. My shop/gallery shell is available for sale as a prefab shop for those who want a very low-prim shop for a 512sm lot: only 12 prims in the main shop, 3 in the front pool/planter -- two levels, three rooms, and the front and back walls are window walls (with the addition of a front door, it could even be used as a prefab house for a newbie -- very basic, but not ugly, either). For those who want only the 12-prim shell, which fits nicely on my First Land, and which would allow the owner to use 115 prims for landscaping or business stock, that's quite a deal. I have been told by an acquaintance who is a much better builder than I, and whose builds are much grander in scale, that such an extremely low-prim build, considering the the size and features, is unique in SL -- whether you believe it or not, Argent, that happens to be a fairly creative accomplishment.

I also have other items for sale which are fairly creative:
-- the only CAT TREE I've seen in SL, f'rinstance
-- an office chair (which began as a freebie that was set as mod/copy/transfer, allowing me to tinker with it - and with whose original creator I will be quite willing to share part of any income from sales; the original was wookie-sized, and it just looked like a loose collection of prims, barely connected - now it looks like a nice solid chair, and I have 8 color/texture variants on file in my inventory for those who want a diff color or type of fabric/leather)
-- a computer desk, which comes in two variants: one with a short monitor shelf (5 prims), and an executive version with a taller hutch (6 prims). The executive chair goes very nicely with my computer desk.

For that matter, some prefab houses are very nice -- Damanios has a very nice prefab villa, which can be found all over SL, and looks appropriate to the landscape no matter where it's set (which, in itself, is quite an accomplishment). There's also a lady on an island (whose notecard I've lost, unfortunately) who sells a nice prefab with a fish pool flanking the front walk; she even includes the fish (copy allowed, but no mod or transfer, so you can put as many as you think you need in your front pool), and a script that lets you sit on the edge of the pool and kick your feet in the water. Kinda fun to sit there, chat with a friend watching the sun set, and watch the fishies swimming around your feet.

Someone who owns a prefab can be very creative in their interior decoration of that house, for their own use and that of their friends, and the exterior landscaping and terraforming around the house, if they have enough land that they can play with it a bit and make it more interesting. I had a number of compliments on my decorating skills. As my socializing takes the form of getting together with friends and talking (and you can do that anywhere in SL), and the only other thing I did in the house was change clothes before going out dancing, I decided I'd rather build my own gallery for my First Land site; the two rooms downstairs are the main rooms of the gallery, the upstairs is my office, where I also display items for sale, but can sit and chat with friends over coffee (the front room downstairs has floor cushions, a low table, and a teapot for visitors who want to sit and chat). I may eventually decide to rent a plot and put my villa back up, but right now, it's not on the agenda.

By the way, the coffeepot in the office and the teapot in the front gallery room are amenities available to the general public. They are scripted, and are fairly high-prim items, prims which I COULD have used for gallery stock items but provide, at present, as a "grace note" in my gallery for visitors. There is also a large TV console in the office which shows snapshots of various scenes/sites around SL as well as a photo of myself (my av), and photos of some of my stock. The scripted computer screen in the office also rotates various snapshots, making the room a little more interesting for visitors. I could have simply packed the damn shop with scripted vendors instead of providing a nicer atmosphere.

When I get some of my digital photos uploaded from floppy disks, I'll have more original art to sell in my gallery, which is also a creative contribution to the culture of SL. As far as I'm concerned, my gallery is more of a _real_ contribution to SL as a creative culture, no matter how many Lindens you buy, as long as you're a freebie tourist.

The basic problem is two, never meeting philosophies:

1) Those who buy L$, who want to get the most L$ for their $.

2) Those who sell L$, who want to get the most $ for their L$.

Invariably, those complaining about the value of the L$ falling are those who fall into group 2, whereas the majority of people in game are probably in group 1 - including me.

It is the BUYERS, being in the majority, who should be leading the market, not the sellers - but, sadly, it generally works the other way round.

I say scrap the whole damn stupid economy idea and make life a lot easier for everyone. So a few people quit out of frustration? Big deal. Basing your real life existance on a virtual currency in a computer game is pretty stupid, in all honesty; if the game shut tomorrow, you'd be SOL on all the money you'd "invested".

Lewis (WWID)

A nice example for that attitude can be seen right now at the LindeX: a friendly resident dropping 2,500,000 L$ in one single block at a rate 1 L$ above current market price.

The effect of such a rude gesture is rather obvious: the next one coming to the LindeX sees this block and places his offer 1 L$ above this price. (Already happened.) Everyone who is in a hurry will do that today. And as soon as the offers at that rate have reached a volume of 200,000 or so every newcomer will place their offers another 1 L$ higher.

So one resident acting out of uncontrolled self interest pushes the market down 2 points. (He might not even get his order filled without lowering the price even more.) Easy to lament. Hard to change. Because that's like markets like the LindeX work.

I'm not quite sure that we can define such sales as uncontrolled self interest.

That's a lot of $L for a small fish like me, but I wonder: what should be done? Set it at $L 5 *more* than what people are willing to pay?

The implication is that all the 'small players' have a right to move their money faster than you. Maybe that's a good social value. But is it always good business?

$10.00 per account. How does that count as "free"? They didn't have free accounts when I joined.

I pay $33 a month for 6144, which pays for $20 a month of the tier on the sim. Every dollar of their sim tier comes from rent like mine. So, I pay $33, Linden gets $20, Tony and Alliez get $13. That's a better deal for Linden Labs than my sticking a prefab on "Mature green flatland" somewhere.

I didn't say you didn't, I was asking you whay you thought all premium accounts were "creators" when so many of them just flatten their land and drop a prefab on it.

I don't doubt it, and so are a lot of prefab chchi prim hairdos. The point isn't what it looks like, the point is whether the person buying it is, as you claimed, a creator.

Someone who sits on a dance ball can be just as creative about their outfits, I'm sure.

Ah, so none of the scripts and objects I write and give away and sell are "creative" unless I get a 512, flatten it, and put a prefab house on it somewhere. Then all of a sudden all the same activity is suddenly "creative".

And I'm the one who's delusional?

Easy question. Simple answer: sell it in smaller chunks without setting up psychological barriers - like you do it when you want to liquidate a larger block of shares on an RL stock exchange. I am not talking about "social value" but business sense. In many zero-sum-games going the way of maximum egoism seems clever at first but actually reduces my chances to win.

For example, if I throw half the daily sales volume on the block in one large chunk, at a time where most potential buyers are asleep, this is not "good business". LOL The predictable effect is, that the rate goes up and all other players with the same mindset sell even cheaper. If they act fast enough I won't sell a single L$ of the large chunk.

Of course I can retract the offer and simply set it for sale at an even lower price. Same effect again.

There have been other exchanges that didn't have the "price inertia" built into them as LindeX does. I don't know if the "inertia" was intentional or accidental but it is a very real feature of the mechanism of LindeX.

As others have noted, when trying to transact on an exchange that has this effect built in, a perfectly valid, non-manipulative sell order by someone who values faster return more than maximal return will happen and the fault lies in the mechanism, not the seller.

Given what folks have said here about fast sales, I'm given the impression that the rule LindeX uses for deciding who the custom goes to when people buy L$ is:

Start from the lowest price for L$
Start from the earliest person to list at that price
Sell the L$
If person's sold L$ ran out, go to next person
If L$ at that price ran out, go to next lowest price

But, what if the following rule was used instead?

A person has "tiered" if a) they have enough in (current value of their US$ account + amount withdrawn from their US$ account) to pay their tier

Start from the lowest price for L$
Start from the earliest non-tiered person to list at that price
Sell the L$
If person became tiered, go to next non-tiered person
If no non-tiered people left, go to earliest tiered person
Sell more L$
If person's sold L$ ran out, go to next person
If L$ at that price ran out, go to next lowest price

This would remove the pressure of needing to drop the price quickly to make tier, which I suspect is part of the problem.

Get rid of premium stipend = People downgrading to basic + Less people going premium in the first place = Less people owning land = Less $ for LL = LL may have to shut up shop.

I'm not for getting rid of any stipends, however, the basic users pay nothing, so its actually handing out free money.

Anyway, stop with "THE SKY IS FALLING" threads?

Stop and think to yourself, what is the end result of everyone having $500L each week given to them? Is it maybe like... a tax cut? Its an influx of money.

The money goes where, investing in yourself, or buying things for yourself. It 'can', (but not necessarily will) improve the economy.

Its not the money, its the number of things available to do with your money. With mediocre building and scripting tools, and having all game features being the responsibility of the user, is the reason for the fall of the Linden.

It is issuing land for auction too quickly, pulling people in making them believe they can make a RL income, and taking away concepts like 'Dwell' and Telehubs without a 'VOTE' as in any democratic society, those are the things that bring down the value of the $L and ultimately SL. Maybe not Dwell and Teleport in particular, but you get the point I hope.

PLEASE REMOVE THE HEADLINE DATED FEB 8TH, OR KEEP ADDING MORE HEADLINES SO IT ROLLS OFF EVENTUALLY! Is it possible to make a RL income? Yes. Is it likely? Hell No and any game that depends on advertising like that is in trouble.

There are some who say this has long since happened. Some would even assert that the the beginning of the fall was what caused the start of the "Make Money Fast" advertising campaign including the fictitious "Some player made U$100,000 last year" statement that Philip Rosedale was fond of spouting until that "some player" publicly denied the statement. Perhaps the most amusing anecdote from that episode was that Mr. Rosedale didn't even have the information available to him to even guess at number he made up as Linden Lab wasn't in the L$:US$ exchange business then.

In short, Philip is a bad liar, the house of cards started falling apart more than a year ago, and we get to watch the brave new world crumble into the dust of history. By the way, does anyone know what The Phil has been up to these days?

I eagerly await vitriolic responses from those who think that propsperity is just around the corner of the next release.

I was a premium account holder from the first day I signed up (after only 3 days of the free trial I think, if memory serves). The reason was the right to own land, but the extra money for shopping. If there hadn't been a premium account bonus in terms of stipend, I would not have given LL my money. Without people giving LL their money, LL can't exist, right?



I think Second Life is amazing in that it is even possible to support yourself inworld (let alone out of world) with making content. Most worlds would not allow for this at all. I do know several people who have SL as their primary first life income. Those are, of course, people who dedicate ginormous amounts of time to working in sl (probably more than they would at the workaday rl grind) but who seem to love what they do.

see so many talking about omg death to the basic account stipen omg death to baisc account they dont pay othing a month, but think about it im willin to bet chances are its those basic that end up putting more money inot the lindex buying your linden your tryin to cash out (just an assumption btw)..


you got basic user A over here only get 50L a week in stipend chances are doesnt win much or any contest due to he has a generic skin and really no clothes to boot.. but really wants to get that nice 2k skin they seen or 300L hair they seen or buy all these outfits they seen and so forth. most dont like to wait and the sl word is just as superficual(sp) as the real world. lets fae it camping chairs take forever to make money on.. yeah winning a contest for what a whole 250L and even getting a job the rates are low would take them awhile to accumilate the money needed to get all that stuff..


(gonna use the notion that wel most premium user create thing).. your got premuim used B who get 500L a week owns land owns a store has there own business and there business generates a good amount of linden for them and probably have 10k+ sitting in there hands at all times

which one do you think is most likely to need your hard earned linden you want to sell and will most likely give in and spend there hard earned rl cash to buy even if its only like 10K

Jackson, good theory, but I don't have 10k sitting around. I also dont have a shop (yet). When I do it will be small.

And the most important part..

I -pay- for that stipend.

just so you know...

people are paying to get those l$. it could be done with a lump sale of l$26000 when a person open's a yearly account. or what ever is appropriate for the period of time they subscribe.

read: ll is selling l$.

the problem is that ll prints new l$ to supply the new l$. that is to say the problem is where ll gets it supply of l$ (ex nihilo).

now the thing people whining about stipends really want is for ll to buy the l$ they sell to premiun users from the lindex.

get it straight.