Ginko Financial doing exactly what they said they'd do

At the moment you hear the call, you don't know whether there is a truck or not. Your are faced with two possible errors.

1. Keep walking, when there is a truck.
2. Stop walking and look around for more infromation, when there isn't actually any danger at all.

I suggest to you that the penalty for error 1 is serious and irreversible, whilst that for error 2 is just the loss of a minute or two, the time to look around and assess the traffic danger.

You can always set off across the road again very soon if you are sure trafic is ok.

For these reasons I say - forget who calls or why. Stop and look round. You have everything to gain, and hardly anything to lose.

Now this is a really good question. It rather depends on two factors

1. How much SL would actually be damaged.
2. What LL's lawyers are telling them.

Lets examine (2) first. If the lawyers are adamant that they can make it stick in court that LL is simply in the same position as an ISP, and has no responsibility for what their residents do to each other. And also perhaps that they can make "the L$ is valueless because we can zero it all any time we choose" stick too.

If these two things will stick, then perhaps LL will indeed just let it happen. At least it would be consistent with their steadily increasing policy of minimum intervention. We would all learn a sharp lesson, and it probably wouldn't happen again. Maybe we need one big scam to be part of the history of our growth.

What alternative do they have ? Investigate Ginko themselves ? What a cost and a precedent that would be.

Now (1). Where would this money, now happily doing heaven only knows what in Argentina, be otherwise. If it wasn't in Ginko. I think a big chunk of it would have been withdrawn in US$ anyway, and would be doing things in peoples RL . Maybe 60% ?

Maybe 30% would have been in SL, lying dormant in peoples accounts because they didn't need it in RL, and thought they just might use it in SL sometime soon. This is my personal position, and I guess many people like me just stick it into Ginko (unlike me)rather than doing nothing.

I don't think it matters much to the rest of us (LL and the non-investor) that that money has gone, even if never seen again.

I don't think people would have bought more SL stuff with it.

Maybe 10% of money in Ginko might otherwise have been spent in world by now. Turnover perhaps forever lost to the community.

So maybe LL calculate that this money was already destined to be somewhere else in RL, or else lying dormant. ie of no importance at all.

Maybe the bulk of it would have been sold for US$ by now, but by the "investor" himself.

So perhaps LL do nothing because their lawyers say they are safe to do nothing, and because they see the possible loss as being 90% born by the investors themselves, with minimal damage to the economy so far, or in the event of a crash.

Perhaps, once again, LL are inviting us to grow up, stand on our own two feet, and sort something out ourselves. Warnings. Warnings rejected, etc etc etc.

I am not interested in word play Ellie.

I think I have said all I can say on this subject.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Thank you for taking the time to listen

It is clear to any THINKING person that Anshe handle this poorly and unfortunately in a somewhat typical fashion when she has a beef with another businesss in SL. She is solely responsible for obfuscating the issue.

As to the issue itself, the people who don't have a problem with Ginko are neither stupid nor naive. A lack of the kind of skepticism that you and others express is not an indication of a lack of thought.

You do well to remember that.

From: someone

Suppose someone calls a warning just as you are walking out in front of a truck. Will you keep walking, and die, because you recognise the voice as someone you loathe ?

Hint #1: SL isn't RL
Hint #2: nobody dies if Ginko goes under

It's really kind of bizarre for someone to even try to equate the two.

On this topic, I just read LL's response to this whole thing,
/16/c0/72263/1.html
including:
(my bolding)
Fascinating. Fits in exactly with my conjecture above. These guys are consistent, and they have balls. We are to sort it out ourselves, sink or swim, and they are confident they are legally uninvolved. Our own vigilance and collective action (outrage? boycott?) is to substitute for regulation. I love it. And I'm just gonna keep on "educating" or "agitating" as I see fit, wherever I think I see people being dangerously overtrusting and inviting abuse. Invite it enough - sooner or later it will happen, even if not yet.

Its a metaphor, Dogspot. The "killed" bit isn't the point. Its about ignoring a possibly genuine warning because of what you feel about the warner. Come on, its not hard. Try to transcend your endless "STFU Blaze" posts, which are at least as bad as the disease they are trying to cure. "STFU" is direct abuse, against the TOS, and I'm surprised you have not been disciplined for its repeated use, sometimes almost on its own. Is this the sort of discourse normal in your peer group ?

Let me be plain, Ellie. I don't like the implication that people who dont' share your anti-Ginko stance are somehow stupid, naive or don't hear the message because of who's delivering it.

I like how you choose so easily to ignore that part of my prior comments.

Thanks. Mom. Can I have my allowance now?

*rolls eyes*

I think those continuing to invest, and recommending investing, have a number of different motivations. Not all naive or stupid, or resulting from deafness. I do think morally negligent, to ask no questions to ensure they are not underwriting RL crime. Since if they don't scrutinize, no one will (unlike RL).

But I keep on with this because I believe some (not all - some) people are still not aware of the implications or the evidence. If even 10% are in this category then I am justified. Look at the title of this thread for example. Do you see nothing wrong with it ? Relevant and on topic ?

I am also very, very concerned by the way poster after poster muddles in references to Anshe as though this had the slightest relevance. So many seem to allow it to color their response.

I think it is totally separate. Discussing these two issues together reduces the possibility of clear dispassionate thinking. It would be better to have a thread on Ginko, and the likelihood or otherwise of it being a scam. No mention of Anshe allowed. And an entirely separate thread discussing the motivation for Anshe having "blown the whistle" and perhaps her own practices in comparison.

Wouldn't it be better to separate them, Dogspot, if we could ? After all, even if Anshe's motivation were indeed apalling, it doesn't alter the Ginko probabilities one jot.

Well, Dogspot. I can't be sure, but my guess is that the age gap between us probably fits with that.
And the answer is - NO. It's halved till you learn to spend more wisely and cut down on the gratuitous swearing........
*hides in bunker*

OK, may I offer a little insight?

Those who are wary of Ginko are not slanderous, abusive morons. They are cautious people. And if they decide to sound a warning, that is both their right, and perhaps even their duty if they perceive danger to others.

Those who are not wary of Ginko, who decide to invest in it, are not cold-hearted, money-grubbing morons. They are adults who have made a decision. Valid or invalid, that is their right.

People *do* want to beware that there may be legal implications on both sides of the issue. That stated, hey, you make your own decisions, you reap the results. That's what being an adult, thinking human being is all about.

Can't really understand why all this has to get personal. Do people no longer have the right to state their opinions? Last time I logged on, freedom was a constitutional right. So lighten up people, eh? Let folks state their opinions without picking up the battleaxe. Reply in a responsible manner. If you have a point to make, make it. Beyond that is just not necessary.

I've been in a few forum battles. Friendly is better.

Sometimes the rare light of day falls on a hot-button issue years after the fact.

What I've noticed from such rare events is this: usually the forum hype doesn't match reality; not even close.


Assumptions I've seen with regard to this issue:

- There really were $L 16 million
- South American involvement of some kind
- Anshe is up to something
- Incredible profit scheme

None of which are necessarily true.



Anshe can't logically be blamed for a Ginko collapse, insofar as that little unscientific poll strongly indicated that almost nobody was paying attention to her.

How can she be blamed when even the alts didn't vote for her? That poll sanctified her like nothing else could, regardless of any possible motive.

So if Ginko goes down, she can honestly say "I tried to warn you" *and* show that "I wasn't the cause".

And it's not like anyone is listening to Blaze.



Point of fact though, being 'right' won't make anyone like you, or listen. Quite the contrary. The really intelligent people simply don't say anything at all; they just sit back and smile.

All of us that say something simply reveal our foolishness, to varying degrees.

As someone famously says around here, real businessmen don't make excuses, they quietly make a profit.

- Desmond Shang

You are right, of course, Desmond. But are you aware that three of these things originated-with/were-confirmed by Nicholas himself ?
Thus :

/130/7e/71981/2.html#post748312

Evil is done when good men do nothing.

This is why I think the lindens are the ones to blame mostly in all of this, because they are doing nothing. In fact, they seem to be assisting them.

Ginsu is calling secrecy and deception innovative .. I mean how screwed up is that.

I know who's making profit around here. It sure ain't you or the other person who says that.

It's one thing to talk the talk, but do you walk it?

/me <3 Wayfinder!

I just wanted people to know that anshechung.com has bought a shill to promote the firm's agenda. Here is what we need to know so that we can understand our participation in the marketplace of ideas:

1. How much payola is being sent to the shill from anshechung.com?
   
2. what is the shill doing with those funds?
   
3. was the payola money obtained through means of which we'd approve?
   
4. is paying a shill for an astroturf campaign a violation of the ToS or CS?
   
5. why have the answers to these questions not been disclosed to us?
   
6. when did you stop beating your spouse?
   

Unless these questions are answered, I need to warn you all that you are victims of an astroturf campaign and that you really need not give the shill any attention until full disclosure regarding these concerns is made. I bring this up as a public service because most of you readers are too young, ignorant, or lack the ability to detect a shill. If it looks like a shill and acts like a shill, it probably is.

Malachi, you're smarter than this.

I'm not quite sure I understand you... do you think I have 'talked the talk' as if I am making big profits? That was my last intention.

Yes, I can cover my tier, but I'm no economic powerhouse. I am a humble antiquemaker and architect, in a niche market style - not exactly the road to riches, I think most would agree?

As for my first life - Like Nick, I don't discuss it. So you'll just have to trust me when I say I *don't* have an incredible profit engine in my back pocket.


My point was: anyone who really *was* making money would have strong interest to simply keep their (and anyone else's) mouth shut.

I think we all realise that 'talking the talk' is almost always a sure sign of someone who doesn't make money.


Anyway. Blaze, I admire your obvious moral fortitude - I generally agree with you on the topic, but I was not about to raise as much din about it.

- Desmond Shang

That's not true at all.

1 - Ginko can undermine the trust which makes our economy viable for all of us
2 - he could potentially set back the emergence of financial institutions which are critical to our economy
3 - People need to understand the different between investing in our economy and withdrawing wealth from our economy.

I suffer and a lot of people suffer greatly when wealth is withdrawn, because that money could be going to the people who

a) would get stipends to buy my products
b) would develop businesses which allow them to profit to buy my products

A scheme of the sort that he's creating does significant harm all around. For LL and the rest of the people around here to just sit idly by when this sort of thing happens is inexcuseable.

I can only hope that LL does have a game plan beyond calling secretive and deceptive business practices "innovative".

The people who are profiting in SL should be the people who are creating content and services which make SL more attractive. This creates a bootstrapping cycle which reinforces and builds our economy.

The fact that LL is not coming out and fighting for these people makes me only assume that they are asleep at the wheel.

Not taking sides here, but I do agree to an extent with this statement.

I'm not being anti-LL here. But there is a statement from a comic book that has to be one of the all-time truths of the universe: With great power, comes great responsibility.

One of my personal peeves with LL is that they create an environment like this... then take every step possible to absolve themselves of all responsiblity. They wield almost ALL the power, but constantly transfer responsibility to others. This takes several form: it's not server issues, it's user content. We can't help you if someone scammed you: buyer beware. Sorry if someone broke their written contract; not our problem. Sorry, even though this is a real economy that Newsweek Magazine publishes as a real economy, we're not going to provide you with a "business conduct" rules system, a contractual arrangement system, or a court of resolution. Sorry if that user next door to you is building ugly; we could say something to him, but we don't want to get involved. Sorry if that user has slandered you in their profile; not our problem. Sorry if that group keeps causing problems; you'll have to deal with that yourself.

Like I said, a personal peeve of mine. Wielding power without responsibility is the foundation of anarchy and chaos, neither of which are beneficial to a strong society.

OK, done soapboxing now. For this message, anyway.

/me sits back.

/me smiles.

Alternatively, you could assume that they have a different view on the economy and on this particular situation then you do.

That is great news, Wayfinder. I hope Ginko sees more "investments". Well, at least until you get your money out.

I hear Potter's bank is paying 50 cents of the dollar.

*winks.....

LOL. The only people who speak their minds are those who can't make a profit? Or did I misunderstand? Cause if I didn't misunderstand... whooo boy, whatcha smokin'? LOL.



I really don't know the facts of anything in this thread. I don't know what Genko is doing, what Anshe has done (btw.. has anyone seen her real picture? Living testamony to never judge someone by her looks, because no one would ever conceive of that tiny, meek oriental person as being one of the major financial barons on SL. LOL). Anyway, I don't know what is going on.

But I do think for the most part, Blaze has been pretty level-headed and presented his opinions in a forthright and balanced manner. Right or no, I have absolutely no idea. I do know I am very much against any person or company who tries to make a profit off of the loss of others (and that includes gambling institutions). I dislike pyramid and ponzi schemes, I hate con men and grifters, because they are selfish, arrogant, self-centered, lousy excuses for a human being who don't care about the welfare of anyone but themselves. World would be better if they were suddenly wiped from the face of the planet. (That goes for business executives who raid retirement funds, who sell businesses via golden-parachute methods while those who rely on them plummet to the ground, etc). Such people are a waste of air.

So any time someone detects a "business" or person actually doing such things... I say let 'em have it, both barrels. Make it publicly known. Fight con games with information.

Again, not making a judgement of any kind in this particular case, 'cause I just plain don't know. Just commenting on life in general.