Ginko Financial doing exactly what they said they'd do
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 11:25
From: blaze Spinnaker I suffer and a lot of people suffer greatly when wealth is withdrawn, because that money could be going to the people who
a) would get stipends to buy my products
b) would develop businesses which allow them to profit to buy my products
A scheme of the sort that he's creating does significant harm all around. We would need to estimate these percentages to get a good estimate of Ginko's economic effect. My guess is that well over half the sum would been sold on the exchanges anyway, so this portion would have done no extra harm. Remember, no L$ leave SL. It is just the effect on the exchange rate. Overall, in truth, I think the economic damage to SL in general probably not "significant" (yet), even if its a total scam. My beef is different. Anyone else want to guess at the percentages ? |
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 11:40
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer no one would ever conceive of that tiny, meek oriental person as being one of the major financial barons on SL Jeepers, Wayfinder. Have you thought through what you're saying here ? Tiny ? Meek ? Oriental ?  You'll be drawing inferences from Prokofy's SLCC photos next, or other controversial residents. Just don't go there, I'd advise. Stereotype upon stereotype. Aaaaargh ! |
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blaze Spinnaker
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11-22-2005 11:44
From: Ellie Edo What percentage of the L$16M do you think would have stayed in SL if Ginko had never existed, Blaze? And how much of that would have been spent in world, rather than stagnate in peoples accounts ? Yes, but a ponzi scheme is basically getting paid to scam people. When I get paid, true I withdraw the money, but I leave something behind - content that people enjoy. I grow the world. Ponzi schemes just leave this great big sucking blackhole. And it is because my customers have learned to trust, because I've given them value for their money, that they might be deluded into trusting a ponzi scheme. And it really really freaking irks me that LL is defending a ponzi's right to existence. Trust me, if LL was all ponzi all the time, then they wouldn't be able to do this. But it isn't - it's a lot of hard working, creative geeks making cool stuff. So people think the ponzi, by association, must be cool stuff and we all suffer. And Ginsu with his "innovative" bull**** is just adding to the illusion.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Gabe Lippmann
"Phone's ringing, Dude."
Join date: 14 Jun 2004
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11-22-2005 11:51
From: blaze Spinnaker When I get paid, true I withdraw the money, but I leave something behind - content that people enjoy. I grow the world. The great big sucking hole that is the Service Industry in the World Economy and the SL Economy just woke up and felt offended.
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 11:53
From: blaze Spinnaker When I get paid, true I withdraw the money, but I leave something behind - content that people enjoy. I grow the world. Ponzi schemes just leave this great big sucking blackhole. Interesting. I hadn't looked at that aspect. I'll have to think that through. You may well be absolutely right, but its a bit subtle. *thinking* First thoughts - but wouldn't that only apply to that portion of the funds which would have been spent on content if such an "investment bank" had never existed ? Not to all L$16M ? How much of it would actually have been spent on inworld goods and services. Maybe L$2M ? L$3M ? Would the people heavily into buying other peoples products be the same people who would refrain, and invest instead ? I think they would be different people. I hardly buy anything now. I make things. Though I bought lots at the beginning, when "investing" would never have occurred to me. |
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Tren Neva
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11-22-2005 11:55
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer LOL. The only people who speak their minds are those who can't make a profit? Or did I misunderstand? Cause if I didn't misunderstand... whooo boy, whatcha smokin'? LOL.  I really don't know the facts of anything in this thread. I don't know what Genko is doing, what Anshe has done (btw.. has anyone seen her real picture? Living testamony to never judge someone by her looks, because no one would ever conceive of that tiny, meek oriental person as being one of the major financial barons on SL. LOL). Anyway, I don't know what is going on. But I do think for the most part, Blaze has been pretty level-headed and presented his opinions in a forthright and balanced manner. Right or no, I have absolutely no idea. I do know I am very much against any person or company who tries to make a profit off of the loss of others (and that includes gambling institutions). I dislike pyramid and ponzi schemes, I hate con men and grifters, because they are selfish, arrogant, self-centered, lousy excuses for a human being who don't care about the welfare of anyone but themselves. World would be better if they were suddenly wiped from the face of the planet. (That goes for business executives who raid retirement funds, who sell businesses via golden-parachute methods while those who rely on them plummet to the ground, etc). Such people are a waste of air. So any time someone detects a "business" or person actually doing such things... I say let 'em have it, both barrels. Make it publicly known. Fight con games with information. Again, not making a judgement of any kind in this particular case, 'cause I just plain don't know. Just commenting on life in general.  I don't know. I don't think accusing someone based on a theory is justified, ever. Anyways, this thread hit rock bottom, which then fell through to a rockier, bottomier, sub-terrian level. Blaze is no longer reading what he's saying, and it has become a fight to see who can find a new word on wikipedia and use it as much as they can. |
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 12:02
From: Tren Neva I don't know. I don't think accusing someone based on a theory is justified, ever.
Anyways, this thread hit rock bottom, which then fell through to a rockier, bottomier, sub-terrian level. Blaze is no longer reading what he's saying, and it has become a fight to see who can find a new word on wikipedia and use it as much as they can. Tren. How can I say this? Don't you think that those here who have no involvement with Ginko management are perhaps able to view things rather more dispassionately than yourself, and therefore perhaps deserving of a little more respect ? Those with obvious agendas should be even more careful to stick to issues, rather than personalities, or commenting on posting styles, don't you think ? Is that unfair ? |
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Nogitsune McGettigan
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11-22-2005 12:02
From: someone And it really really freaking irks me that LL is defending a ponzi's right to existence. Get over it... Its not like they are doing anything wrong. So they can run off with the money and never be seen again? Big deal, so can Anshe. Come to think of it... so could any of us o.o; As for leaving content behind? What about casinos? People pay money to people so that they can run a script for a chance that they MIGHT get lucky... Money for blinky lights and a lose/push/win indicater and pay results acordingly... Nothing lasting... Go complain about that why don't you... Or... better yet... Wait for it... wait for it... JUST STFU |
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blaze Spinnaker
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11-22-2005 12:07
From: Ellie Edo Interesting. I hadn't looked at that aspect. I'll have to think that through. You may well be absolutely right, but its a bit subtle.
*thinking*
First thoughts - but wouldn't that only apply to that portion of the funds which would have been spent on content if such an "investment bank" had never existed ? Not to all L$16M ?
How much of it would actually have been spent on inworld goods and services. Maybe L$2M ? L$3M ? Would the people heavily into buying other peoples products be the same people who would refrain, and invest instead ? I think they would be different people. I hardly buy anything now. I make things. Though I bought lots at the beginning, when "investing" would never have occurred to me. Well, you might spend the money on land or rental from one of the island barons. Both Hiro and Anshe buy more islands everytime their islands fill up, for example. Or as gabe put it, on services. I consider services to be content as well. Anything in world that expands it in some vector.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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blaze Spinnaker
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11-22-2005 12:09
From: Nogitsune McGettigan Get over it... Its not like they are doing anything wrong. So they can run off with the money and never be seen again? Big deal, so can Anshe.
Come to think of it... so could any of us o.o;
As for leaving content behind? What about casinos?
People pay money to people so that they can run a script for a chance that they MIGHT get lucky...
Money for blinky lights and a lose/push/win indicater and pay results acordingly...
Nothing lasting...
Go complain about that why don't you...
Or... better yet...
Wait for it... wait for it...
JUST STFU Most of the casinos convert thier profits into camping chairs which goes to noobies and gets cycled back into the economy.
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Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 12:15
From: Nogitsune McGettigan Get over it... Its not like they are doing anything wrong. So they can run off with the money and never be seen again? Big deal, so can Anshe.
Come to think of it... so could any of us Do you wonder some of us begin to sound a bit patronising, Nogitsune ? Hardly any of us hold funds belonging to other people, in trust for them. Anshe holds some, but only in the form of her private sim "sold plots". Thats all she could abscond with that is not her own, and it would bring down all the rest of her business, to huge loss. Ginko holds L$16M of other peoples money on trust. has already removed it from our world and anybody's reach, is totally anonymous, unlike Anshe, and could (if dishonest) keep the lot tonight by taking no action whatsoever. Just don't ever log on again. Ginko are in an unique position, and residents are uniquely at risk. To pretend this situation is widespread, or even that Anshe is as risky, is simply, in my opinion, unthinking nonsense. Sorry. But that is my opinion. Why is Anshe-bashing such fun for you all ? I only ever attacked her on issues. But here - many of you seem blinded by rage and envy......... How else can I interpret it ? Is this the tip of some deep social phenomenon, or what ? |
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Nogitsune McGettigan
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11-22-2005 12:15
From: blaze Spinnaker Most of the casinos convert thier profits into camping chairs which goes to noobies and gets cycled back into the economy. Really? Swell... And what happens to L$ that is sold? Why... it goes into the account of the on who purchesed it... Well... lets see... Why would anybod buy L$ unless they either intend to trade or spend it? How is this different? |
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 12:19
Now, now boys and girls. May I suggest we keep off camping chairs and stay on topic ? Doesn't it offer enough conflict to satisfy anyone on its own? I hate to see a derailment coming when the wagons are hot and rolling |
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blaze Spinnaker
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11-22-2005 12:24
The point I'm trying to make, and which is wholey relevant, is that all the actors in SL, even if they have their own little scams, generally re-invest into SL.
The big difference with a ponzi scheme that withdraws all its funds is that's not re-investing at all.
_____________________
Taken from The last paragraph on pg. 16 of Cory Ondrejka's paper " Changing Realities: User Creation, Communication, and Innovation in Digital Worlds : " User-created content takes the idea of leveraging player opinions a step further by allowing them to effectively prototype new ideas and features. Developers can then measure which new concepts most improve the products and incorporate them into the game in future patches."
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Nogitsune McGettigan
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11-22-2005 12:26
From: someone removed it from our world Um, removed? As far as I can tell, the Lindens did not magicly enter the world of SL and delete those 16 million linden dollers... They are still there, its just that the L$ has changed hands. From: someone Why is Anshe-bashing such fun for you all? Its not for me, I'm just peeved that she would attack Ginko with a bunch of what-ifs and such. Alot of bad things can happen. Doesn't mean they will. And as far as holding other peoples money? What do yo mean? It is in their hands, its theirs. If they choose to honor and aggreement saying they'll hand it back plus a little extra on request, its their call. |
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Gabe Lippmann
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11-22-2005 12:29
From: Ellie Edo Ginko holds L$16M of other peoples money on trust. has already removed it from our world and anybody's reach Only removed in the sense that those people who invested their money might never see it again, except by watching somebody else spend it inworld. I wonder what the average investor has in deposits with Ginko? As a whole it is sizable, but is the average investor holding US$10 ($L2527 - a trifle), US$50-100 ($L12,636-25,272 annoying to lose, but not an economic disaster for the individuals) or are they holding US$1000 ($L252,720)?
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Jesse Linden
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11-22-2005 12:30
please refrain from attacking each other. We realize this is a contentious issue, we are well aware of the particulars and people involved, and these threads are being watched by moderators. As long as you stay on topic, we will leave the thread open. You are perfectly free here to debate the merits of one particular business over another, as long as you are not abusive towards any particular individual involved.
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Ellie Edo
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11-22-2005 12:33
From: Nogitsune McGettigan And as far as holding other peoples money? What do yo mean? It is in their hands, its theirs. What ? You serious ? If it's in your hands it's yours ? You a shoplifter ? They let you take it into the changing-room, so you scarper ? You would feel no hard feelings if your RL bank packed up and disappeared ? That money you lent your sister ? She can just wave two fingers and laugh ? It's only true in the sense that we can all commit murder if we wish. So what ? I really am wasting my breath here, aren't I ? The fun is diminishing. Time to do something else. "Ruby on Rails" perhaps. I'm one third through the tutorial. Is it the next big thing, or just another framework destined to fade into obscurity ? Whoops - that really is off topic. |
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Desmond Shang
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11-22-2005 12:37
From: Wayfinder Wishbringer LOL. The only people who speak their minds are those who can't make a profit? Or did I misunderstand? Cause if I didn't misunderstand... whooo boy, whatcha smokin'? LOL. Ah, that's a misunderstanding, maybe my wording? Reworded for clarity: 'Talking the talk', as I understand it, implies someone who is bragging about making money, not someone saying what is on their mind. People who brag like that are rarely in the money-making category. Rich people describe themselves as 'comfortable', if they say anything at all. My minor point - none of *us* are going to 'cash in' by participating in this discussion. Is anyone going to suddenly decide "Let's buy antiques from Desmond" because I wrote anything here? Ah, no. The most likely scenario is that Ginko might gain a few customers, for as they say in theatre, "a good review is good, but a bad review with a picture is better." The fickle goddess of Publicity usually rewards those she bitchslaps. And regarding Blaze's point - yeah, I have to agree - it is in our interest to open our mouths if it ever became in someone's strong interest to 'cash out' and damage the overall economy for the rest of us. I was thinking in a bit narrower term when I wrote to the contrary, but you're right on this one. Point made and point taken. - Desmond
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Nogitsune McGettigan
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11-22-2005 12:38
From: Ellie Edo What ? You serious ? If it's in your hands it's yours ? You a shoplifter ? They let you take it into the changing-room, so you scarper ?
You would feel no hard feelings if your RL bank packed up and disappeared ? That money you lent your sister ? She can just wave two fingers and laugh ?
It's only true in the sense that we can all commit murder if we wish. So what ? *Laughs* You're silly ^^ Of course I meant that. There are no regulations forcing them to pay up, so it is up to them weither or not to do so. As for the scenarios you listed, why, there are systems in place to prevent such things ^^ And as for the sister thing? Yep... Sad to say, but oral contracts ain't worth the paper their printed on. As a side note however, just because a contract can not be enforced, doesn't mean it won't be honored. Guese that means the best thing you can hope to do is try to get to know who your dealing with. As far as Ginko goes, I have had no problems with them, receaved prompt service, and it seems to be run by good people. Frankly, I'd be suprised if they were to cut and run. In any case, as it is a risky investment, I've been careful not invest more than I can afford to lose. What more do you want? |
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Kazuo Murakami
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11-22-2005 12:52
From: Jesse Linden we are well aware of the particulars and people involved, and these threads are being watched by moderators. Actually, the problem is we are NOT aware of the people involved, only of their SL aliases. We are not aware of the particulars, because Ginko refuses to disclose any information whatsoever. |
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Nogitsune McGettigan
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11-22-2005 12:55
From: Kazuo Murakami Actually, the problem is we are NOT aware of the people involved, only of their SL aliases. We are not aware of the particulars, because Ginko refuses to disclose any information whatsoever. Um, yeah, why is this a problem? It is an ingame banklike thingie that uses game currency... Why do you feel the need to know, much less feel your entitled to know, their real life information? |
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Kazuo Murakami
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11-22-2005 12:55
From: Nogitsune McGettigan Um, removed? As far as I can tell, the Lindens did not magicly enter the world of SL and delete those 16 million linden dollers...
They are still there, its just that the L$ has changed hands. I'm reasonably certain you're yet another Nicholas alt, but if not then let me fill you in. They are not still there. Ginko has (by their own admission) sold off at least $60,000 in Ls. Where this $60,000 went, they refuse to say. |
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Kazuo Murakami
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11-22-2005 12:56
From: Nogitsune McGettigan Um, yeah, why is this a problem?
It is an ingame banklike thingie that uses game currency...
Why do you feel the need to know, much less feel your entitled to know, their real life information? Ah, ok thanks. For erasing any remaining doubt I had that you are another of Nicholas' many alts. |
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Nogitsune McGettigan
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11-22-2005 12:58
From: Kazuo Murakami Ah, ok thanks.
For erasing any remaining doubt I had that you are another of Nicholas' many alts. *Smirks* Actully, for the record, I'm not... Sides, that doesn't answer the question... Why do you need to know? |